Organics Without Tea?

[NSPB]

Yes, it works, if that is what you are asking. That whole 1st post is almost "bible" worthy.

However, I really do try to use multiple sources of nutrients to really create a balance. I have used primarily fish/sea based nutrients to run entire cycles, but I honestly think the final flowers come off tasting, well...fishy. Maybe it was all in my head, but I just don't like to use one straight source. I've found my terpene profiles to be much more complex and "full" or balanced...simply saying just better works...when the plants are feeding from nutrients based on multiple sources.



NSPB

 

[VerdantGreen]

some superb posts by NSPB here. i also like to use at least 2 sources for each nutrient in the hope that more balance is created.

Lazyman, hoof and horn is a good medium to long term source of N. i use it if im running long flowering strains. it would be even better if you recycle your soil - as a secondary source of N

to the OP, beware of people telling you that you dont need to worry about pH - just because they dont doesnt mean they can speak for your conditions where you are. my advice would be to be aware of your water source pH and amend it if necessary.
i'll dig out my soil mix and post it up later

VG

VG

 

[SecretGardener]

Yes, it works, if that is what you are asking. That whole 1st post is almost "bible" worthy.

However, I really do try to use multiple sources of nutrients to really create a balance. I have used primarily fish/sea based nutrients to run entire cycles, but I honestly think the final flowers come off tasting, well...fishy. Maybe it was all in my head, but I just don't like to use one straight source. I've found my terpene profiles to be much more complex and "full" or balanced...simply saying just better works...when the plants are feeding from nutrients based on multiple sources.



NSPB

Hmm I will certainly consider this on my next run when I mix up my soil. I currently have two seperate sources for each nutrient in form of guano's and meals. For each meal I'd pair it with its respective nutrient type guano (Blood meal + High N Guano etc..). Would that work? Of course I wouldnt go over the suggested dosage per gallon of soil for each nutrient.

 

[guest2012y]

Yes, it works, if that is what you are asking. That whole 1st post is almost "bible" worthy.

However, I really do try to use multiple sources of nutrients to really create a balance. I have used primarily fish/sea based nutrients to run entire cycles, but I honestly think the final flowers come off tasting, well...fishy. Maybe it was all in my head, but I just don't like to use one straight source. I've found my terpene profiles to be much more complex and "full" or balanced...simply saying just better works...when the plants are feeding from nutrients based on multiple sources.



NSPB

I have said this for a long time.........I can taste the fish. It is best to have multiple sources of Nitrogen that break down at various rates. I use bat guano,alfalfa meal,crab meal,EWC,and of course compost...compost....compost! If you find the right balance of amendments that work well in your particular garden...you'll not have issues.

 

[Microbeman]

fishy taste? huh? never had any complaints. I wonder if it depends on the fish used?

 

[guest2012y]

fishy taste? huh? never had any complaints. I wonder if it depends on the fish used?

I think so. I've never had complaints either,but I pick it up.
When I was using Alaskan emulsion, (before I switched to hydrolysate) the smell and taste was like a river after the salmon run and start washing up on the banks dead.
Even now when I hit the few pots that need a boost with the hydrolysate,it can leave a lingering fishy smell for a bit on the foliage.
However,I just don't use enough of any fish product anymore to leave any taste behind...it's just solid pure organic smoke that lets each types (strain) characteristics come through with no other amendment tastes.

 

[NSPB]

I think so too.

I know it sounds a tad bit obtuse...and that is okay. People look at me crazy when I expect them to know what strain they are smoking. I'd not expect their palette to be any more educated! However, when you get to be a connoisseur, and you produce your own medicine for long enough, you truly do begin to notice the subtle differences. I suggested it might be all in my head, simply knowing what I was feeding the ladies...but to hear some one else confirm such a statement, well, I'm all ready to jump on the bandwagon!



NSPB

 

[NSPB]

Hmm I will certainly consider this on my next run when I mix up my soil. I currently have two seperate sources for each nutrient in form of guano's and meals. For each meal I'd pair it with its respective nutrient type guano (Blood meal + High N Guano etc..). Would that work? Of course I wouldnt go over the suggested dosage per gallon of soil for each nutrient.

Very good. You are without question on the right track. I may be taking it a bit too far, but I like to use 3 sources for the main N, P, K feedings. I also like to pair guanos and meals...just as you have suggested, however, I also like to take it a bit further. I like to look at things like this:

-one source from the earth
-one source from something that ate the earth
-one source from something that excreted it's earth consumption

For example, my N is derived from alfalfa, blood, and guanos. This really tends to incorporate what I feel is the entire spectrum of what and where nutrients can come from...



NSPB

 

[poofaloof]

This thread is golden, thanks everyone!

 

[poofaloof]

It wasn't the pH of your irrigation water, it was the alkalinity, or acid buffering capacity.

Don't worry, it's an extremely common misconception.

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf

Thanks so much man that was some must have information!

 

[Carl Carlson]

I used store bought reverse osmosis water....the issue was pH....I know this for a fact, as I wasn't adjusting it at ALL. (I didn't own a pH pen)


NSPB

Don't take this personally. It's simply not a fact. The facts surrounding water quality, nitrogen content and substrate pH are well established, but for some reason largely ignored by the cannabis growing community. That despite that every professional crop grower and greenhouse operator in the free world is operating on the same set of facts.

You have assumed causality, where there is none whatsoever. You stated that you used Botanicare products on this grow, including PBP. PBP has very low Ammoniacal nitrogen content. It's a good match to use with RO water because that combination has been proven to have little to no affect on substrate pH.

In the future, I hope this helps.

 

[Microbeman]

That despite that every professional crop grower and greenhouse operator in the free world is operating on the same set of facts.

Please elucidate. I know a number of organic farmers and know of none practicing pH manipulation of irrigation water. [outside of one who treats high sulphur well water]

 

[Microbeman]

Carl,

As I read through the PDF you posted I could tell that the author was discussing growing from a conventional (chemical) perspective and not organic. I satisfied myself of this suspicion by going to the site of origin and read the article by the author on fertilizers. Organic and chemical techniques exhibit two completely different methods of nutrient uptake which is why one needs to fiddle with pH when growing with chemical fertilizers.

In nature, the majority of nutrients are delivered to the roots via microbial interaction, oft explained by myself in this forum. The use of chemicals entails dumping EC measured ions into the rhyzoshere to be diectly absorbed by root systems. EC measurements are inneffectual applied to organics.

In natural or organic growing the pH ends up being controlled by the microbes present (bacteria=alkaline; fungi=acidic) and the way to a balanced pH is through having abundant organic matter AKA (vermi)compost.

True there are water sources which are way off the target when measuring potential hydrogen (pH) and it may be beneficial to adjust this within reason if the substance used is not itself more of a problem than the 'off' pH.

 

[NSPB]

...

 

[NSPB]

Hmmm....I'm going to back track a bit here. Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

This is the post you took issue with originally:

The only thing I can tell you...is even with the dolomite in your soil mix, you will still want to make sure you check and balance the pH of your different feeding solutions. If you pH is off, your plants will NOT be happy.

First of all...this post is VERY solid advice to ANYONE who is using store bought liquid nutrients. You by all means, should check and balance the pH when combining multiple types of such products.

Your response:

It wasn't the pH of your irrigation water, it was the alkalinity, or acid buffering capacity.

Don't worry, it's an extremely common misconception.

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf

When it comes to managing the pH of a substrate, the alkalinity concentration has a much greater effect than does water pH. Alkalinity (calcium bicarbonate, magnesium bicarbonate, and sodium bicarbonate) and limestone (calcium and magnesium carbonate) react very similarly when added to a substrate. And just like too much limestone, the use of irrigation water containing high levels of alkalinity can cause the pH of the substrate to increase above acceptable levels for healthy plant growth.

For example, a limestone incorporation rate of 5 pounds per cubic yard will supply approximately 100 meq of limestone per 6 inch (15-cm) pot. Applying 16 fluid ounces (0.5 liters) of water containing 250 ppm alkalinity to that 6 inch pot will supply about 2.5 meq of lime. That does not sound like much until you consider that after 10 irrigations you have effectively increased the limestone incorporation rate by 25%. Even if you are using a completely inert substrate, the liming effect that high alkalinity water has will cause your substrate pH to increase to unacceptable levels.

To compare the effect of water pH or alkalinity on the ability to raise pH (or neutralize acid) in a medium, 50 ppm alkalinity (which is a low alkalinity) would be similar to having a water with pH 11 (i.e. an extremely high pH). A water with a pH of 8.0 would have the same effect on substrate pH as an alkalinity concentration of only 0.05 ppm (i.e., almost nothing).​

Before using tap or well water for a grow, people should go to Lowes or any other store that sells pond supplies and get the inexpensive 5 in 1 test kit that includes alkalinity. That will tell you much more about the water supply than pH alone.

The first mistake was assuming that during the usage of such products, I was using tap or well water. So I attempted to let you know, that while you had provided some useful information, it was simply not applicable or directly relevant to the given scenario.

Your second mistake was assuming I was talking about the pH of water...however, when re-reading my post, you should see I was talking about the pH of the mixed "feeding solutions".

Continuing:

I used store bought reverse osmosis water....the issue was pH....I know this for a fact, as I wasn't adjusting it at ALL. (I didn't own a pH pen)



NSPB

Now, having been provided the knowledge that I was using reverse osmosis water, you should have immediately realized that the quality or condition of the "irrigation water" as you put it, was somewhat of a moot point. To explain why this is so, I'm going to copy and paste from the first search response I found using Google:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Q. How pure will the water be?

A. Purity is determined by two things, first the "reject ratio of the membrane (92-99.5%) and secondly, the type of salts in solution. Membranes are very good at rejection high molecular weight compounds and multivalent ions. Monovalent ions such as Na+ and Cl- (Sodium and Chloride) are not rejected as well and are the leakage ions. The amount of leakage is determined by the reject ration. A 95% reject ration means that 5% of the salt concentration leaks through so a 200 PPM input stream would result in a 10 PPM output stream. A membrane rated at 99% would result in a 2 ppm output stream. The reject ratio changes over the life of the membrane and leakage increases. Each time you clean a membrane it slightly changes its properties so after many years the ratio may drop to 90% or less. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Q. Do I have to pH adjust before the reverse osmosis system?

A. Complete systems have a pH adjust module to reduce the pH to between 5.5 and 6.5. This helps to prevent plugging of the membranes and aids in cleaning the system. If the system is to be used in water recycling, pH adjust is mandatory.[/FONT]

In summary, RO water is good to go as it is. It has very little to no TDS and is properly pH balanced. It is why I have never used anything BUT.

You respond:

It's simply not a fact.

It is a fact that my plants were suffering from terrible pH swings after feeding. To tell me otherwise, well....frankly, how would you know? Where you there to see them? Did you look at them and make the judgment that they were not dealing with pH issues? No, you couldn't have, because you were not there...and this was nearly 10 years ago. Identifying pH issues was not that difficult, not even as a novice grower with the wonderful resources available here on ICmag.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=83

The facts surrounding water quality, nitrogen content and substrate pH are well established, but for some reason largely ignored by the cannabis growing community. That despite that every professional crop grower and greenhouse operator in the free world is operating on the same set of facts.

What are these facts you speak of? And in what way are they relevant when using RO water? Which, I think I have given enough general information to see that water quality is once again a moot point in regards to RO.

You have assumed causality, where there is none whatsoever. You stated that you used Botanicare products on this grow, including PBP. PBP has very low Ammoniacal nitrogen content. It's a good match to use with RO water because that combination has been proven to have little to no affect on substrate pH.

http://botanicare.net/sites/default/files/product_labels/SilicaBlastBackLabel.png

You are more than welcome to read that label. See where it says "and adjust pH to 6.0"

I never assume anything. Causality: my failure to adjust the pH of my nutrient feeding solutions directly resulted in the burning and improper growth of my garden.

Never was anything negative said about the Botanicare line of products nor was any blame placed on them.

I used store bought reverse osmosis water....the issue was pH....I know this for a fact, as I wasn't adjusting it at ALL. (I didn't own a pH pen)



NSPB

I made sure to point out that I did not attempt to adjust my pH, as I did not own a pH pen. That is called gardener error.

The only thing I can tell you...is even with the dolomite in your soil mix, you will still want to make sure you check and balance the pH of your different feeding solutions. If you pH is off, your plants will NOT be happy.

THAT IS SOLID ADVICE TO ANY GROWER USING ANY BOTTLED LIQUID FERTILIZER.

Don't take this personally.

I have not at all. I appreciate you taking the time explain your thoughts on the matter. And hopefully you will appreciate the time I have taken.

In the future, I hope this helps.

Likewise.



NSPB

 

[pearlemae]

I use a Coir, coarse and fine, mixed with a 1 cuft bag of EWC with a LB of blood meal, kelp meal,1 lb bat guano, 8 qts pearlite vermiculite. Cup or so of lime. and myco inoculant. Mix well let age for a week or so check the PH adjust if needed, generally don't need to. This will last all the way from start to finish. I'll spray with molasses and add a tsp or so at the end when watering. There is no choking, coughing, burning or harshness in the smoke. I never realized how nice organic bud could be. Also I'm growing in a cab with T5's. space and heat issues.Pics of some of the last run. It was in to the cure containers black tightvac canisters work really well.

 

[hash head]

I use a Coir, coarse and fine, mixed with a 1 cuft bag of EWC with a LB of blood meal, kelp meal,1 lb bat guano, 8 qts pearlite vermiculite. Cup or so of lime. and myco inoculant. Mix well let age for a week or so check the PH adjust if needed, generally don't need to. This will last all the way from start to finish. I'll spray with molasses and add a tsp or so at the end when watering. There is no choking, coughing, burning or harshness in the smoke. I never realized how nice organic bud could be. Also I'm growing in a cab with T5's. space and heat issues.Pics of some of the last run. It was in to the cure containers black tightvac canisters work really well.

perlite and vermiculite are different things you say 8 qts pearlite vermiculite.. which is it?

 

[VerdantGreen]

here is my soil mix as requested. one thing i would say is VERY important if you want a 'Just add water' grow, us to use decent size pots. you really dont want them to get rootbound during flower . i would say 3 gallon would be minimum, perhaps vegged for a week after transplant before flipping to flower. i use 4 x 4 gallon pots for my modular scrogs under a 250.

3 parts peat
2 parts quality topsoil ( make sure it hasnt any ferts added) if you are going to use native topsoil then consult my 'topsoil in the mix' thread
3 parts perlite
1 part mushroom compost
1 part wormcasts
dolomite lime 5g/litre

and the ferts, the guano doses are for cavemans (UK Brand which isnt that strong), i reduce the N guano a little for sensitive strains but that mix has never burned anything. obviously for seedlings i leave all the ferts out except the seaweed meal

N guano : 2 - 4g/litre
P guano : 4g/litre veg, 8g/litre flower
Rock phosphate 5g/l
rock potash 5g/l
seaweed meal 5g/l

the i just add water amended to around pH 6 with Citric acid.

cheers

VG

 

[zen_trikester]

As Jay told you...most growers who fully amend their soil, do so using different batches. (clone / seedling, vegetative, and flower) I personally found growing this way to be much more hands off and MUCH more pleasurable. Not to mention, I was producing MUCH better medicine this way as well. The only issue I had, was keeping multiple batches of soil sitting around every where.





NSPB

Out of necessity due to limited space growing micro in an apartment, I found that mixing up my organic soil with 2x the amendments and then cutting with coco when potting up works wonderfully. This allows me to save a lot of space storing the medium. The soil mix is in a rubbermaid in a closet and I use the GH coco bricks. The bricks store easy and I hydrate 1 at a time as I need them. the other advantage to doing it this way is it allows me to tweak the strength of my mix for seedlings/cuttings or for plants that like a little more umph. I use MG organic soil mixed with Promix organic soil, pluse bone, blood, kelp, perlite, dolimite/garden lime, epsom and only declorinated water with a drop of super thrive per gallon. I have since found that the epsom seems to leach out of the soil to fast so now I am forgetting that and just using a medium does of microblast in my water. I was having wonderful consistency until I started reusing soil... that's for another thread though!!!

I'm sure there are better amendment programs and I am learning a lot in this thread. Multiple sources of each nutirent appeals to my logic for instance. However, for someone who wants to conserve space and/or be able to adjust the strength of his mix without having 3 dirt piles the coco cut may be helpful for you. It has been working great for me. I'm still learning so if there is a reason this should not be done please feel free to call me out on it, but it is working for me.

Jed

*edit* I never use large pots... 6x8x4 is about the biggest my system can handle. I also don't veg much, but when I do I fill the bottom 1/3 of the pot with strait amended soil and then cut the top 2/3 with coco and this works well for me.

 

[Phedrosbenny]

Hi all!

We're starting our second indoor grow in about a week. Last time we used a mix of FFOF and Happy Frog in combination with Gh's organic line and had a nice time.

This time around we're going to use peat moss mixed with perlite, dolomite lime, and worm castings as a base.

My question is this: Can we just use organic ferts as a soil amendment instead of teas? Basically, is there any issue with treating this base as any other soil and feeding out of the bottle accordingly?

I only ask because every thread that I've found about promix, peat, and the like revolve around using either an organic tea or organic additives in the soil, which is ok, but this time around we'd like the simplicity of bottle feeding until we get our feet a little wetter.

I grow basically how you are talking about growing.I use my own recycled soil with ammendments added.I also supplement this some with Earthjuice from the bottle.I do give compost tea sometimes to help the microbes.This isnt something I have to do though.