my female seed phobia is it warrented ???

[mule420]

So if they are breeding towards color taste or smell and not all female then they shouldn't sell it as a fem only................they should put it where it belongs under the HERMI category .IF THEY CAN'T GET A LINE TO PRODUCE ALL FEMALE PLANTS IT SHOULDN'T BE MARKETED AS ONE. very simple. False advertising is worse then stealing to me, take my money but don't make me waste 3 months of my life

The intersex trait exists within most plants on some level. Some have it very latent in their genetic map and only extreme stress will bring it out. Some have it dominating their genes and these plants will most likely pass on the trait as dominant in it's progeny.
The latter are easy to find and select out, and I am certain that you aren't going to find many commercials seeds being sold that have a high propensity to hermie, fem or not.

Now, a breeder may know that his strain carries the latent intersex gene, and he may know that if you hose up the lighting, or stress it in some way out of the ordinary, it may show the intersex trait. But perhaps he knows that the strain won't show intersex when grown in optimum conditions? Is he responsible for the hosed up grows that end up having nanners? I think not.

Also, another thing to consider...are you buying recreational cannabis, or breeding stock?
Did the breeders description tell you it was good stock for a true breeder or breeding material at all?

Fem seeds are 100% female, no false advertising involved.
The level at which the intersex gene exists within any given strain is the question.

yeh,,,,breeders should clearly explain the details of there strains!!,,,,an at the min most dont!!

1) if its NOT breeding stock,, WHY not?

2) if the line is sexualy bipotant,,, is it only sexualy bipotant after silver ions aplication or can an inapropreate niche enviroment trigger reversal,,,

breeding for a wider niche is good breeding tactics,,totaly stopping reversals in 99.% of possible enviroments is exactly what the parranoid peeps want,,,i say give it to them,,,keep em happy,,shut-down the dissapointment

The fatheads meant to say the dude you bought the seeds from didn't work the line far enough to find intersexed traits... So he just slung the seeds out... Sadly that's the trait of some fem seed breeders who give it all a bad name... Peace and puffs

 

[johnbobit]

I'm sorry i must be confused about something or im just to baked. Are you saying that when a plant hermis it is always because of improper growing conditions or some type of stress and never just because it has it geneticly?

When it comes to this stuff i know nothing compaired to you guys so im just missing something here.

I guess my point was companys like dutch passion had to of know that there femed seeds were all hermi seeds, atleast the first few years, ive heard maybe one or two ok reports from people but read hundreds of negitive reports. Then theres female seeds who test there seeds and have read many great reports.

I just don't like to see people get taken advantage of especially new growers who if they have a good first experience may end up doing it for life but if they have a shitty all hermi grow might give it up.


P.S. i do my research ive never bought femed seeds from dutch passion. I've got mine from paradise seeds and female seeds. Not a single hermi. I highly recommend both those companies

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Are you saying that when a plant hermis it is always because of improper growing conditions or some type of stress and never just because it has it geneticly?

You can assume that female cannabis has the intersex gene in it's genetic make-up. Some have it as a dominant trait, and when it grows it will show it with the least little bit of coaxing...say like lights hours screwed up, too hot, too cold, too much water, ferts, etc...
These types of plants that show the intersex trait real easy are normally culled from a growing population so that their genes do not carry on this intersex thing to it's children.

Other plants may well have the ability to show the intersex trait just like it's sister, but it has it buried way down deep in it's genetic map. It won't show itself unless there is some severe stress that happens. And many times a plant like this you wouldn't even know it held such a trait in it's genes unless you actually tried to stress it with lights, chemicals, etc... These plants are chosen to use for further breeding in hopes that their children will also not show the interesex trait easily.

It all boils down to the breeder and how he chose the parents he used to make the seeds that you buy. And it doesn't matter if we are talking fem seeds or regular seeds, this all comes into play the exact same way.

Also be aware that the term "hermie" is a bit of a misnomer in the way that we normally use it. Any plant that shows the intersex trait gets called a hermie, but it is more than likely NOT a hermie. A hermie has both male and female parts on the same flower, and all of the flowers on the plant will be that way. That is a true hermie and you won't find many of them at all in the gene pool.
Oh, you may find true hermies in something that came from Chuck E. Dipshits 420Seed Company or someones ignorant attempt to spread bad seeds...but not from reputable breeders.

 

[johnbobit]

thank you for enlightening me

 

[mule420]

Hermies or intersexed traits can happen because of improper growing or they can happen because the plant has the trait hidden in its parents genes. Some breeders don't work a line at all, to make it stable by crossing in or out or cubing or stress testing... They just take one plant, make it show intersexed traits and chuck the pollen on any plant around and on to market with my fem seeds. I also have to say this, a plant grown in my room vs anyone else's and we will get different results. To many variables to truly test every type of growing conditions... And I'm just learning this stuff also peace and puffs



EDIT: HD beat me to the punch... You said it way better thanks bro!

 

[DocLeaf]

The whole ability to make feminised seeds implies (im not a botanists) that an unstable characteristic was present in the donor.

For example some strains (like Cheese) do NOT reverse,, although their hybrids do readily.

Hope this helps

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Doc, I think the reason the Cheese wont reverse is the fact that it may be a true female and not have the intersex mechanism in it's genetic map. And the anecdotal evidence of it's progeny being easily reversed would have little to do with the genes from the Cheese, but rather the genes that came from what was crossed to it. If the Cheese is a true female and does not carry the intersex trait at all, then it has nothing it could possibly contribute during meiosis to cause the progeny to carry the trait. It HAD to be the other parent that contributed the gene/trait.

And "reversing easy" is a bit misleading. When we reverse a female using chemicals like CS or STS, we are actually providing the most severe of stress. In fact, we are going past the stress, and actually manipulating the results of a stress in the plants chemical paths.
IMO, any plant that carries the intersex trait at all will reverse, no matter if it's called easy or hard, it will reverse. I'm not sure how one qualifies easy or hard reversals anyway?
It either does or it doesn't. Now, it may not provide viable pollen, but it will reverse if it has the gene/trait to reverse.

Imagine you had a true male to pollinate with, not just a true breeding male, but a true male that does not carry the intersex trait at all. Using this known true male on the actual Cheese clone would result in progeny that would not have the intersex trait. None of the progeny.
But, we would need to discuss how you found that true male....

Now, assume I was lucky enough to find a true female. And imagine I force her to pollinate another true female such as the Cheese? What would the results be?
Those of us paying attention know the answer....

 

[kg beans]

wats the matter with boy /girl breeding???,or am just old fashioned!im breeding with (bb not exodus)cheese now and must admit shes a stubborn cow,and yeah hoosier id buy yr seeds!

 

[stagger lee]

When well-known breeders(dutch passion.GH,ect..) that have spent so much time,money,research and still cant produce/offer worthy feminized seeds(w/no intersex probs) I have a hard time believing its as easy as hoosier tries to make it sound!

IF there is a way to produce feminized seeds (w/no greater risk of intersex trait showing itself) the selection process is obviously a difficult one. Some make it sound like these breeders are greedily throwing BS seeds out w/no effort whatsoever. But I dont think thats not entirely true.

Sorry about using DP as an example but theyve spent over a decade working on them, and theres still the same exact issues. Before feminized became so popular I rarely saw any growers w/herm problems. IMO the problems highly out# the advatages that feminized seeds bring to the table.

 

[englishrick]

sooner or later we will have this all panned out bro,,,,once we get some propper testing don,,,,i need to put my ass into gear and see what i can show you,,,

 

[stagger lee]

Rick you should probably at the least put together a thread about this topic and issues surounding it. you've been doing your homework on it forever and could list facts answering alot of questions. covering both sides pro's and con's about fems and which breeders offer worthy genetics(and deserve the business) and proven feminized strains.

 

[englishrick]

i do feel unbiast,,

id love to do it,,but i need people to help me get the info out of my head

this might be a start,,,


my opinion is that ;

firstly we need to understand cannabis taxamony and what brought us to the point we are at now,,,,

DISRUPTIVE SELECTION

choosing seeds to breed with depends on your goals,,,,seed production,,,,,sensiemilia production,,,fiber production,,,,1 breeder might have 1000 different seedlines,,,,each seedline is developed with particular goals inmind,,,,1 seedline might be resistant to a particular pesticide,,,1 seedline might be resistant to a particular mold,,,etc etc,,,

1 thing we know for sure is that

1),,we need massive Ne numbers to retain genetic divercity,,,,,

there is great variation in Cannabis sativa, because of disruptive domestication for fiber, oilseed, and narcotic resin, and there are features that tend to distinguish these three cultigens (cultivated phases) from each other. Moreover, density of cultivation is used to accentuate certain architectural features. Figure 1 illustrates the divergent appearances of the basic agronomic categories of Cannabis in typical field configurations


figure 1

Modern breeds are descendents of the wild species from which they were derived. The process of domestication dramatically changed the performance and genetic architecture of the ancestral species through the process of hybridization and selection as originally described by Charles Darwin (1859).

Despite the low yields and poor eating quality of most wild ancestors and primitive crop varieties, these ancient sources of genetic variation continue to provide the basic building blocks from which all modern varieties are constructed. Breeders have discovered that genes hidden in these low-yielding ancestors can enhance the performance of some of the world's most productive crop varieties. In this essay, I will provide some historical context for the paper by Gur and Zamir in this issue of PLoS Biology (Gur and Zamir 2004). I will discuss how “smart breeding” recycles “old genes” to develop highly productive, stress-resistant modern varieties and why this approach is particularly attractive to increase food security in regions of the world with high concentrations of genetic diversity.

The job of the plant breeder is to create an improved variety. This may be accomplished simply by selecting a superior individual from among a range of existing possibilities, or it may require that a breeder know how to efficiently swap or replace parts, recombine components, and rebuild a biological system that will be capable of growing vigorously and productively in the context of an agricultural environment. How the breeding is done and what goals are achieved is largely a matter of biological feasibility, consumer demand, and production economics. What is clear is that the surest way to succeed in a reasonable amount of time is to have access to a large and diverse pool of genetic variation.

 

[Forest20]

...So in short... It's what you put "IN", Is what you Get "High" Off

 

[englishrick]

if it aint on the menu, we dont sell it

 

[Baba Ku]

When well-known breeders(dutch passion.GH,ect..) that have spent so much time,money,research and still cant produce/offer worthy feminized seeds(w/no intersex probs) I have a hard time believing its as easy as hoosier tries to make it sound!

IF there is a way to produce feminized seeds (w/no greater risk of intersex trait showing itself) the selection process is obviously a difficult one. Some make it sound like these breeders are greedily throwing BS seeds out w/no effort whatsoever. But I dont think thats not entirely true.

Sorry about using DP as an example but theyve spent over a decade working on them, and theres still the same exact issues. Before feminized became so popular I rarely saw any growers w/herm problems. IMO the problems highly out# the advatages that feminized seeds bring to the table.

We have never grown any DP gear, but we have grown out lots of other commercial fem lines. I'd have to say there are far fewer intersex issues seen from the fems we have grown, including ones we have bred ourselves, than from regular seed stocks. And I have not seen reports of feminized seeds producing more intersex flowers than regular seeds. I see lots of claims of what people say they hear, but not any hard factual data.
Unless controls are in place, it is just anecdotal info that should be taken with a grain of salt.

Proper selection is a difficult task, if accomplished properly. But that goes for any seed breeding no matter how it is done.
If there were actually a problem with feminized seeds causing an intersex issue that is out of the ordinary, it would be duly noted by the learned of the trade. -It has not been duly noted by any of them.

 

[Silence]

The whole ability to make feminised seeds implies (im not a botanists) that an unstable characteristic was present in the donor.

For example some strains (like Cheese) do NOT reverse,, although their hybrids do readily.

Hope this helps

Hello again Doc, it seems this topic just goes round and round in circles.. I think certain female plants have CMS therefore cannot release pollen.. some show this but when temps are lowered or raised they then do release a bit weather viable or not.. I have heard some reputable people state they got it to reverse.. did the Cheese you have show balls but not shed ? I have had this with Nev and the NL5 clone..

Kopite (not Hoosier)

Ps. also if the "cheese" did not show balls at all perhaps it us one of these "true" females.. it would be a candidate like Hoosier eluded to, as an elite and would be suitable for female breeding would it not..

 

[DocLeaf]

Yo Kopite

When we finally got the Exodus Cheese,, we grew it and we smoked it, we watched it being grown in many other gardens,, then we tried to stress it using natural methods,, like variations in temps and photo period.. and that specific clone just would not produce anything other than true female flowers... we even pissed on it.. lol

As we understand it colloidal silver only inhibits the female (x) side of the XY in cannabis,, allowing the male (Y) side to be expressed (thanks Gerrit)

Since all regular cannabis plants have an X and a Y,, then there should be no reason why a regular Skunk #1 plant like Exodus Cheese does not reverse... under chemical application. We have personally observed applications of CS onto Exodus Cheese clones before, and in that case,, nothing happened.

Moreover,, the many many seed companies now carrying fem. Cheese seeds (primarily Big Buddha Seeds) would have reversed the Exodus Cheese,, not BigBuddha's Cheese x Afghan,, were it was possible... since they ALL have access to the original Exodus Cheese clone.

For these reasons alone ,, we remain sceptical as to the fact if anyone actually ever feminized the Exodus Cheese cut.. rather than one of the many other often mistaken "Cheese" hybrids that circulate the UK.

Ask any Exodus Cheese grower if they EVER saw an intersex flower in the clone. The answer will be 'No' (not even a nanna). Those that answer 'Yes' are growing a different clone.

Peace n flowers

 

[Silence]

Yo Kopite

When we finally got the Exodus Cheese,, we grew it and we smoked it, we watched it being grown in many other gardens,, then we tried to stress it using natural methods,, like variations in temps and photo period.. and that specific clone just would not produce anything other than true female flowers... we even pissed on it.. lol

As we understand it colloidal silver only inhibits the female (x) side of the XY in cannabis,, allowing the male (Y) side to be expressed (thanks Gerrit)

Since all regular cannabis plants have an X and a Y,, then there should be no reason why a regular Skunk #1 plant like Exodus Cheese does not reverse... under chemical application. We have personally observed applications of CS onto Exodus Cheese clones before, and in that case,, nothing happened.

Moreover,, the many many seed companies now carrying fem. Cheese seeds (primarily Big Buddha Seeds) would have reversed the Exodus Cheese,, not BigBuddha's Cheese x Afghan,, were it was possible... since they ALL have access to the original Exodus Cheese clone.

For these reasons alone ,, we remain sceptical as to the fact if anyone actually ever feminized the Exodus Cheese cut.. rather than one of the many other often mistaken "Cheese" hybrids that circulate the UK.

Ask any Exodus Cheese grower if they EVER saw an intersex flower in the clone. The answer will be 'No' (not even a nanna). Those that answer 'Yes' are growing a different clone.

Peace n flowers

I think those that did get it to reverse and I believe it was the Exodus, found that the S1's when grown were of sub standard compared to the clone, which IMO is a sport... I had access to the clone years ago, but no longer.. IMO most of what goes around as cheese is not cheese these days.. I don't believe they created feminized cheese via the clone myself.. certainly they cubed the shit out of it then prob selected some stand out plants for reversal etc etc.. maybe its the/a cubed outcross reversed to the clone?

Kopite

 

[DocLeaf]

Had we feminized the Exodus Cheese,, we'd have given them out for free ,, same way the clone does ,, so lets draw a line under this commercial Cheese hype,,, my appologies,, its old news :cannabis:

What are the new "non-commercial" (not over-exposed) feminized seeds saying today,, that's what we really wanna know .. .. we have a new Green Poison [Sweet Seeds] fem. just entering flowering outdoors... fingers crossed it doesnt reverse itself.. lol

This is the main thing feminized plants are good for,,, especially the autos,, you can just throw em in a corner, water them occasionally ,, and have little else to worry about... e.g. feminized seeds takes half the fun out of growing the major negative being you dont get any male plants which is gay!

Otherwise they are ok and usually produce nice smoke... a nice feminized clone also makes an OK female to cross regular male plants with from what we've tested

Peace n flowers ALL

 

[Silence]

Had we feminized the Exodus Cheese,, we'd have given them out for free ,, same way the clone does ,, so lets draw a line under this commercial Cheese hype,,, my appologies,, its old news :cannabis:

What are the new "non-commercial" (not over-exposed) feminized seeds saying today,, that's what we really wanna know .. .. we have a new Green Poison [Sweet Seeds] fem. just entering flowering outdoors... fingers crossed it doesnt reverse itself.. lol

This is the main thing feminized plants are good for,,, especially the autos,, you can just throw em in a corner, water them occasionally ,, and have little else to worry about... e.g. feminized seeds takes half the fun out of growing the major negative being you dont get any male plants which is gay!

Otherwise they are ok and usually produce nice smoke... a nice feminized clone also makes an OK female to cross regular male plants with from what we've tested

Peace n flowers ALL

I'm not a fan of autoflowers myself.. but each to own.

Kopite