Organics Without Tea?

[Finepointcanon]

Hi all!

We're starting our second indoor grow in about a week. Last time we used a mix of FFOF and Happy Frog in combination with Gh's organic line and had a nice time.

This time around we're going to use peat moss mixed with perlite, dolomite lime, and worm castings as a base.

My question is this: Can we just use organic ferts as a soil amendment instead of teas? Basically, is there any issue with treating this base as any other soil and feeding out of the bottle accordingly?

I only ask because every thread that I've found about promix, peat, and the like revolve around using either an organic tea or organic additives in the soil, which is ok, but this time around we'd like the simplicity of bottle feeding until we get our feet a little wetter.

 

[SecretGardener]

Hi all!

We're starting our second indoor grow in about a week. Last time we used a mix of FFOF and Happy Frog in combination with Gh's organic line and had a nice time.

This time around we're going to use peat moss mixed with perlite, dolomite lime, and worm castings as a base.

My question is this: Can we just use organic ferts as a soil amendment instead of teas? Basically, is there any issue with treating this base as any other soil and feeding out of the bottle accordingly?

I only ask because every thread that I've found about promix, peat, and the like revolve around using either an organic tea or organic additives in the soil, which is ok, but this time around we'd like the simplicity of bottle feeding until we get our feet a little wetter.

I've read plenty of people that do nothing to their plants except water...of course you'll have to research all the proper amendments but it is not uncommon. But I am just learning and relaying what I've read to you, the masters should be along soon

 

[jaykush]

imo if you want to go with only soil amendments, your grow will have to be more transplant oriented. meaning you have a mix for seedlings/clones say in 8 oz cups, then a veg mix in one gallon pots, more fresh veg mix in 2-3 gallons if you want to veg more time. then say 5 gallon of flower mix. this way you can adjust the soil amendments to the stage of growth. and not overwhelm plants with more than they can handle.

 

[Finepointcanon]

Firstly, thanks for the replies,

I guess what I mean is, can i simply feed with liquid fertilizer as I normally would with soil? (mix with water and pour in pot)

 

[NSPB]

Yes you can do this without issue. Just make sure, if you are trying to stay organic, that you use fully organic products. To mix organic soil bases and chemical ferts will cause you all sorts of issues as the microherd in the soil will end up getting killed off.

Many years ago, I used to grow this way using Botanicare products. (PBP, LK, etc.) The only thing I can tell you...is even with the dolomite in your soil mix, you will still want to make sure you check and balance the pH of your different feeding solutions. If you pH is off, your plants will NOT be happy.

As Jay told you...most growers who fully amend their soil, do so using different batches. (clone / seedling, vegetative, and flower) I personally found growing this way to be much more hands off and MUCH more pleasurable. Not to mention, I was producing MUCH better medicine this way as well. The only issue I had, was keeping multiple batches of soil sitting around every where.

Since then, I have moved on yet again, and now FULLY amend my soil for the entire life of the plant cycle in one big mix. I found that using the right combination of amendments, while taking into consideration the variable time frames different things "break down" in the soil, you can ensure that the plant is getting exactly what it needs, exactly when it needs it. Keeping in mind, a plant is only going to use what it is environmentally being told to use. Meaning, if your vegetative room is properly maintained, even with the presence of P and K, the plant is still going to primarily feed on the N and for the most part ignore the other elements present...until a time, the environment changes and tells the plant it is time to eat something different.

I for one, say skip the whole bottled retail products (it gets to be a bit tedious measuring 5 or 6 different things every time they get hungry) and suggest you dive head first into producing TRULY organic medicine by learning how to properly amended your soil.

No better soil, in my opinion, than one you just have to add water to make the magic happen...

On a side note, this is my base medium, before adding ANY sort of amendments to it:

4 gallons local organic potting soil (no base nutrient value)
1.5 gallons peat
1.5 gallons coir
3 gallons perlite
1 gallon EWC



NSPB

 

[Finepointcanon]

Well... that about does it! Thanks NSPB! I'm sold on shelving our bottled nutes and giving it a go, now I've just gotta convince my patient....

 

[NSPB]

Well, what you need to explain to your patients is this:

We do not grow the plants. The plants only respond to the environmental stimuli there are given...more specifically the soil and the surrounding environment. If you have a fully amended soil, there is never a time period in which the plants are EVER without something they need. This is important. Even with a very strict watering / feeding schedule, there is the possibility of under/over feeding and stunting the plant. If the PLANT decides when it is going to use what it wants and needs...and has it there at its immediate disposal...it can actually grow better....MUCH better, than we could EVER attempt to "grow it" ourselves. For me it is all about letting nature do what nature was intended to do.

That and we all know that fully organic medicine is just simply better!



NSPB

 

[Carl Carlson]

Many years ago, I used to grow this way using Botanicare products. (PBP, LK, etc.) The only thing I can tell you...is even with the dolomite in your soil mix, you will still want to make sure you check and balance the pH of your different feeding solutions. If you pH is off, your plants will NOT be happy.

It wasn't the pH of your irrigation water, it was the alkalinity, or acid buffering capacity.

Don't worry, it's an extremely common misconception.

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf

When it comes to managing the pH of a substrate, the alkalinity concentration has a much greater effect than does water pH. Alkalinity (calcium bicarbonate, magnesium bicarbonate, and sodium bicarbonate) and limestone (calcium and magnesium carbonate) react very similarly when added to a substrate. And just like too much limestone, the use of irrigation water containing high levels of alkalinity can cause the pH of the substrate to increase above acceptable levels for healthy plant growth.

For example, a limestone incorporation rate of 5 pounds per cubic yard will supply approximately 100 meq of limestone per 6 inch (15-cm) pot. Applying 16 fluid ounces (0.5 liters) of water containing 250 ppm alkalinity to that 6 inch pot will supply about 2.5 meq of lime. That does not sound like much until you consider that after 10 irrigations you have effectively increased the limestone incorporation rate by 25%. Even if you are using a completely inert substrate, the liming effect that high alkalinity water has will cause your substrate pH to increase to unacceptable levels.

To compare the effect of water pH or alkalinity on the ability to raise pH (or neutralize acid) in a medium, 50 ppm alkalinity (which is a low alkalinity) would be similar to having a water with pH 11 (i.e. an extremely high pH). A water with a pH of 8.0 would have the same effect on substrate pH as an alkalinity concentration of only 0.05 ppm (i.e., almost nothing).​

Before using tap or well water for a grow, people should go to Lowes or any other store that sells pond supplies and get the inexpensive 5 in 1 test kit that includes alkalinity. That will tell you much more about the water supply than pH alone.

 

[NSPB]

I used store bought reverse osmosis water....the issue was pH....I know this for a fact, as I wasn't adjusting it at ALL. (I didn't own a pH pen)



NSPB

 

[VerdantGreen]

i have never made tea in my life, i agree that a well amended soil is a great way to get good yields - just adding water. i keep a bottle of cheap organic flower nutes (biobiz) handy just i case they look hungry but seldom use it.

im sure teas work just great too - but thankfully there are many ways to grow great organic weed

 

[Lazyman]

Out of curiousity (sorry for the threadjack!) what is a good long-lasting N supplement? I find EWC lasts for 1-2 weeks typically, and I need a soil amendment that will time-release N for about 6 weeks (transplanting at the flip.) P and K are easy to manage, but keeping enough N in the soil is something I'm tired of fighting.

 

[Finepointcanon]

Hey, threadjack away! Good info is good info. If you don't mind, VerdantGreen, which recipe do you use for your soil?

 

[SecretGardener]

Out of curiousity (sorry for the threadjack!) what is a good long-lasting N supplement? I find EWC lasts for 1-2 weeks typically, and I need a soil amendment that will time-release N for about 6 weeks (transplanting at the flip.) P and K are easy to manage, but keeping enough N in the soil is something I'm tired of fighting.

Double thread jack!

(Lazyman made me think of a question unrelated to growing without using a tea )

Would an EWC tea be a significant enough N source? I ask because my bag of EWC contains:

Nitrogen 1%
-Water Soluble .01%
-Water Insoluble .09%

The soluble N would be available right away and the insoluble is going to be taken care of by the microherd over time.

 

[B.C.]

Out of curiousity (sorry for the threadjack!) what is a good long-lasting N supplement? I find EWC lasts for 1-2 weeks typically, and I need a soil amendment that will time-release N for about 6 weeks (transplanting at the flip.) P and K are easy to manage, but keeping enough N in the soil is something I'm tired of fighting.

Blood meal will work. Some bone meals have alot of N as well as P in them. Alfalfa and feather meals are a couple more off the top of my head.

To the OP, if ya make a soil mix with 20% worm castings or good quality compost ( humates ) you won't have ta worry about the PH. Besides many organic bottled nutes these days have humic acids in them. This buffers the plant against the PH bein off ( if it is ), so the plant will feed regardless of the PH. Jus thought I'd throw it out there as another possibility.

Makin yer own soil with amendments is great way ta go too... Good luck with what ever ya choose. BC

 

[NSPB]

Out of curiousity (sorry for the threadjack!) what is a good long-lasting N supplement? I find EWC lasts for 1-2 weeks typically, and I need a soil amendment that will time-release N for about 6 weeks (transplanting at the flip.) P and K are easy to manage, but keeping enough N in the soil is something I'm tired of fighting.

A very good long lasting N source would be seabird guano (about 6 months). Keeping in mind, it is also a very good source of P as well. One thing that is particularly unique about SBG is it is naturally pelletized. This essentially means that it is going to take it a bit longer to break down.

You could also look into something like cottonseed meal, as it takes a bit time to break down in soil...but I don't particularly care for it...it tends to make the soil a bit acidic.

Other high nitrogen sources, such as blood meal or a high N bat guano, are just as good, however there are differences. The blood meal can be consumed by the plant almost immediately, and will feed for a solid 2-3 months. Because of its composition, most "meals" are able to maintain there location within the soil structure. Guanos, while taking a bit longer to break down than a meal, will feed slightly longer, up to 4 months, however, because of their generally powdery nature, can be leeched out of the soil a bit faster with heavier watering. I also want to make note that TOO much guano in a mix can also lead to higher water retention...sometimes this is good...sometimes it is not. Depends on your specific medium...


NSPB

 

[NSPB]

Double thread jack!

(Lazyman made me think of a question unrelated to growing without using a tea )

Would an EWC tea be a significant enough N source? I ask because my bag of EWC contains:

Nitrogen 1%
-Water Soluble .01%
-Water Insoluble .09%

The soluble N would be available right away and the insoluble is going to be taken care of by the microherd over time.

Simple answer yes....but no.

An EWC tea is mainly used for the beneficial bacteria that you get from the castings. I'd not really call it much of a "fertilizer" so to speak. Keep in mind, because of it's high micro life and softer nutrient profile, it makes it ideal for seedlings and clones that are just getting their roots wet.



NSPB

 

[Lazyman]

A very good long lasting N source would be seabird guano (about 6 months). Keeping in mind, it is also a very good source of P as well. One thing that is particularly unique about SBG is it is naturally pelletized. This essentially means that it is going to take it a bit longer to break down.

You could also look into something like cottonseed meal, as it takes a bit time to break down in soil...but I don't particularly care for it...it tends to make the soil a bit acidic.

Other high nitrogen sources, such as blood meal or a high N bat guano, are just as good, however there are differences. The blood meal can be consumed by the plant almost immediately, and will feed for a solid 2-3 months. Because of its composition, most "meals" are able to maintain there location within the soil structure. Guanos, while taking a bit longer to break down than a meal, will feed slightly longer, up to 4 months, however, because of their generally powdery nature, can be leeched out of the soil a bit faster with heavier watering. I also want to make note that TOO much guano in a mix can also lead to higher water retention...sometimes this is good...sometimes it is not. Depends on your specific medium...


NSPB

Thanks to you and to BC for the great tips! I use fresh FFOF, amended with EWC and GH Ancient Forest (humates) at the flip, taking plants from 2G smartpots to 5g smartpots. I get about 3 weeks of feeding with this, but need just a few more weeks out of it and top dressing with extra EWC, EWC+sea kelp tea, or chem nutes only slow down the yellowing but rarely arrests it. I'd like to not incur the yellowing from the get-go!

I think I will try the seabird guano as a top-dressing, I have some mocha bat guano that I think is 4-2-5 that would probably work too. Maybe some no-sodium alfalfa pellets in a puddle under my dripper tube (Blumats) would do the trick as well.

Does blood meal stink when used indoors?

Thanks again guys, you rock!

 

[B.C.]

Hells yeah LM, that sounds like it'd work fine! Oh, and yeah blood meal prolly would stink if you were top dressing with it. Mixed in the soil I think you'd be ok tho. Good luck to ya! Take care... BC

 

[NSPB]

I've never really tried top dressing with the SBG...with it being pelletized; I've always mixed it in fully with the soil. I honestly HATE top dressing with regular guanos as I've found it makes the water tend to puddle up and not soak into soil as it normally should. I'd not expect you to find that a problem with a pelletized guano.

The one aspect that makes the SBG another excellent choice for a transitional fertilizer is it is also an excellent source of P. Because it is SO strong, and you are going to top dress, and you DON'T want excess N in the heat of flowering, I'd only use about 1 tablespoon per plant....



NSPB

 

[vinnythebat]

is recipe #5 in organics for beginners a good non tea feeding?

RECIPE #5
Fish and Seaweed (This is sooo easy)

For veg growth…
1 capful 5-1-1 Fish Emulsion
1 capful Neptune's Harvest 0-0-1 Seaweed or Maxicrop liquid
1 gallon H2O

For early flowering…
1 tbs. Neptune’s Harvest 2-3-1 Fish/Seaweed
1 gallon H2O

For mid to late flowering…
1 tbs. Neptune’s Harvest 2-4-1 Fish
1 gallon H2O