ICMAG Administration endorses The Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

Once again...I concur!! (Except that "Legalization" is not in the Title--)
But yeah bro-- I am with you on this...except I cannot put the faith that you have, that this is all gonna turn out to our benefit--
But in the end...I will be voting Yes...unless something unforeseen comes up--
Just saying the "L" word, gets us Stoners all giddy and shit!!
BTW...Love the kitty cats!! lol

[/I]

shit it's not that I have faith in 19 (in fact I condemned it hoping jacks chi or cci or whatever the fuck he was calling it would make the ballot) but it didn't,, and it probably never would if it was left up to relying on donations like the NOs keep saying


So basically I've had to bite my lip and watch the gang of 4 draft and succeed 19. Do I like 19?? not a long shot...

But as a cannasoldier i'm more afraid of what may happend if 19 doesn't pass than if it does... I'm afraid that if it don't pass it will seriously stifle any real chance well ever get...

I look at it like this ,,, on personal things can't be worst than it is now,, laws don't get worst,, cops attitudes can't getworst ,,, peoples views can't get worst

but there alot of things that can go better,, and with some tweeking could be the free market utopia many dream of

but if 19 fails it WILL effect not only public opinion but much worst political opinion. you want to talk fascist??? you will be giving them the WMD equivilant of talking points for an anti-mj crusade.

they will tout the failure as 19 as a clear message that these do good'n Americans don't want the evil fuckin marihuana and us hippy liberals are justtrying to force them to be drug addicted socialists,, I already hear the Glenn beck and rush limbaugh going to town on a anti mj crusade,, and with Obama on his way out and let's face it we know it's very likely a republican will replace him and we know how much the right wing fanatics love to fuck with mj,,,,

I guess well just have to wAit and see what happends...,..

 

[zen_trikester]

shit it's not that I have faith in 19 (in fact I condemned it hoping jacks chi or cci or whatever the fuck he was calling it would make the ballot) but it didn't,, and it probably never would if it was left up to relying on donations like the NOs keep saying


So basically I've had to bite my lip and watch the gang of 4 draft and succeed 19. Do I like 19?? not a long shot...

But as a cannasoldier i'm more afraid of what may happend if 19 doesn't pass than if it does... I'm afraid that if it don't pass it will seriously stifle any real chance well ever get...

I look at it like this ,,, on personal things can't be worst than it is now,, laws don't get worst,, cops attitudes can't getworst ,,, peoples views can't get worst

but there alot of things that can go better,, and with some tweeking could be the free market utopia many dream of

but if 19 fails it WILL effect not only public opinion but much worst political opinion. you want to talk fascist??? you will be giving them the WMD equivilant of talking points for an anti-mj crusade.

they will tout the failure as 19 as a clear message that these do good'n Americans don't want the evil fuckin marihuana and us hippy liberals are justtrying to force them to be drug addicted socialists,, I already hear the Glenn beck and rush limbaugh going to town on a anti mj crusade,, and with Obama on his way out and let's face it we know it's very likely a republican will replace him and we know how much the right wing fanatics love to fuck with mj,,,,

I guess well just have to wAit and see what happends...,..

Another great post tr3e, but I just want to comment on the bold part. I know we agree on the rest.

I believe Obama will use MJ in some form for a stance toward reelection. Fed MMJ, reduced scheduling, or a stance for states that want to legalize. It is pretty obvious now that the majority of people of this country are not scared of MJ. Actually he would be a fool not to. He has ignored the questions pretty well, but you can bet he has heard them! There will be an independent candidate that will try that stance, and the republicans probably won't. Not saying that he will forgo the rest of the Democratic priorities, but I truly think he will throw it out there in one way or another. I think CA passing 19 would be an even bigger push for him to do so.

For the rest of this tread, and specifically the no voters. Please tell me SOMEONE, why you folks keep saying this ISN'T legalization. It may not be perfect in your eyes, but it is legalization! I really hope that nobody out there actually thinks that there will ever be a "grow whatever you want" free-for-all prop? That is a ridicules pipe dream in my opinion.

One of the major reasons that the non-smoking public is open and/or wants any form of legalization is to prevent crime issues by taking sales off the street, another is to keep MJ out of the hands of kids by regulating the sales, another is to save money being spent on prison time for mj "criminals", and another is to raise money through taxation. Neither "true" legalization (as the "treat it like a tomato plant" concept is touted around here) nor decriminalization, fixes all of that. I know that the public opinion of MJ is better than even just a few years ago, but that opinion comes with strings. Does anyone here actually think that public opinion will ever change that much? It is a drug no matter how you slice it and is not simply a nutritious vegetable! Or is that fruit?

The thing that I personally like best about this prop is that it CAN pass and become law and all it takes is a few votes. It isn't perfect for anyone but it gives everyone a little something. Holding out for the Utopian concept doesn't even seem like a possibility in this day and age... well not without this step being taken first.

So, no guys:

Q1. Why is this not legalization when it protects users in a similar fashion as alcohol?

Q2. What is YOUR idea of legalization that could reasonably be passed by the entire cross section on CA?

Q3. How long, and what will it take to convince the majority of CA voters on your stance.

I would really like to know what people think would be better AND reasonable to the masses, and I promise I won't go off on anyone for their opinions, short of peaceable disagreement. Dagnabit on the other hand may come getcha... well, you are probably safe as long as you "Don't Lie!". Ha!



Jed

 

[BigBudBill]

ahh dag, in an odd way i kinda like you. you just like to fuel the flame.

an example of a moral law would be banning abortion. or trying to ban it.

an example of a law that has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with a governments job- care for the wellbeing of the people, would be - medicare.

now you could argue that someone would say, gee whiz buddy, it is moral to care for people. then youd be right.

ok then, legislating morality by limiting freedoms is more to the liking of the conservative right. it just is. and their is the reverse on occassion, liberals not wanting gun rights for example.

in GENERAL conservative politics revolve around business/guns/morals that limit freedom.

i said, that their are very minute differences between our two party system. thats one of them. is that shocking to anyone? omg you mean theres actually not much difference between the reps and the dems?

our system is like two cross city rival football teams. ucla vs usc.

other democratic systems are more like choosing which sport you like best. basketball, soccer, baseball, football, womens golf.

thats all im sayin maaaaaaan.

It seems the real 2 parties are extremists(right and left) and moderates(people with sense).

 

[JackTheGrower]

Legalization is where we drop all laws against and start over from the point of Cannabis being completely legal.
Decriminalization is where we reduce some of the penalties for some of the Cannabis offences.

And Yes with the Initiative process we can have Legalization. It is Not a Bill. A Bill is what our Legislature works with.

Do I think there won't be any rules ? Not even close. I'm sure we would have to make new laws but they would be based on Cannabis being legal.
With Decriminalization all laws are based on Cannabis being Illegal.

 

[BigBudBill]

I have had decrim vs legalization clarified to me as such:

Decrim removes penalties for possesion. But not for cultivation and disribution.

Doesnt make sense to me. How is a person to get cannabis if it's illegal to grow and distribute?

 

[igrowone]

I believe Obama will use MJ in some form for a stance toward reelection. Fed MMJ, reduced scheduling, or a stance for states that want to legalize. It is pretty obvious now that the majority of people of this country are not scared of MJ. Actually he would be a fool not to. He has ignored the questions pretty well, but you can bet he has heard them! There will be an independent candidate that will try that stance, and the republicans probably won't. Not saying that he will forgo the rest of the Democratic priorities, but I truly think he will throw it out there in one way or another. I think CA passing 19 would be an even bigger push for him to do so.

rescheduling is definitely in the wind, there is activity in the congressional committees
from Obama's responses to MJ questions, i don't get much feeling for MJ love there, at least not on the political side of things
congressional reps and senators recognize 2 currencies, 1 is political points, the other is actual money
the federal side would love to tap into the revenue stream of MMJ
they already do with income tax, but come on, why just 1 tax where you can have 2(or more)?
some legislative sleight of hand, and you don't get federal legalization, you get 'legalization'
more of the MMJ money comes to Washington but no one gets blamed for federally legalizing MJ because they didn't legalize it, the states did that

 

[binaryfission]

Does that make sense or am I rambling, lol? Me and Martin Luther King had a dream. His was achieved, mine isn't, lol....

um no it has not. equality for all has not been achieved as evidenced by the persecution against people smoking herb among a million other things.

please stay on topic and don't bring even more heated issues into this debate, Senor Super Mod.


Maybe its too early for me but talk of the Dr and his dream don't need to be hashed out inside this already horrendous debate. Its like comparing someone to Hitler or the third reich. smh.

 

[Anti]

It would be best if all 50 states and Mexico Legalized at once.
Lives would be saved.

It'd be BEST if the Government ended the ENTIRE war on drugs. I have no interest in heroin or meth or whathaveyou, but the war is a loser. If some people want to use meth and heroin, they will. They are. Putting them in jail for it doesn't help them... it ruins their lives. A few might "see the light" and clean up in prison but the majority will just have their few options for a better life taken away, which will increase their desire to get completely out of their minds when they get out.

It'd be BEST if we could all do whatever the hell we wanted to do, so long as doing so does not prevent someone ELSE from doing whatever the hell THEY want to do.

It ain't going to happen, but it would be BEST.

I'll take something that CAN happen and work toward making it better and better and better over time.

 

[Anti]

It seems the real 2 parties are extremists(right and left) and moderates(people with sense).

"The two real political parties in America are the Winners and the Losers. The people don't acknowledge this. They claim membership in two imaginary parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, instead." - Kurt Vonnegut

 

[Anti]

Legalization is where we drop all laws against and start over from the point of Cannabis being completely legal.
Decriminalization is where we reduce some of the penalties for some of the Cannabis offences.

And Yes with the Initiative process we can have Legalization. It is Not a Bill. A Bill is what our Legislature works with.

Might I recommend that we go ahead and pass the EXISTING PROP 19 and then work together to get a NEW prop on the 2012 ballot that says "Seeing how nobody ran amuck with 19, let's go ahead and just drop all restrictions on private individuals regarding cannabis production or consumption."

Don't you think it'd be EASIER to pass such legislation if we pass this first?

 

[JJScorpio]

It was meant as a joke, not to argue. Did you notice the lol that went with it? Not everything needs to be argued....

um no it has not. equality for all has not been achieved as evidenced by the persecution against people smoking herb among a million other things.

please stay on topic and don't bring even more heated issues into this debate, Senor Super Mod.


Maybe its too early for me but talk of the Dr and his dream don't need to be hashed out inside this already horrendous debate. Its like comparing someone to Hitler or the third reich. smh.

 

[nomaad]

wrong JJ. EVERYTHING needs to be argued.

your turn.

lol.

 

[JJScorpio]

wrong JJ. EVERYTHING needs to be argued.

your turn.

lol.

Give me a minute, I'll come up with something, lol....

 

[binaryfission]

yes i saw the lol. am i allowed to think it was inappropriate? or not funny?

and i'm not trying to argue it. i just think its inappropriate and off topic.

 

[dagnabit]

um no it has not. equality for all has not been achieved as evidenced by the persecution against people smoking herb among a million other things.

please stay on topic and don't bring even more heated issues into this debate, Senor Super Mod.


Maybe its too early for me but talk of the Dr and his dream don't need to be hashed out inside this already horrendous debate. Its like comparing someone to Hitler or the third reich. smh.

tossing you a lifeline

 

[CrazyCooter]

Q1. Why is this not legalization when it protects users in a similar fashion as alcohol?

The prop is called "control, regulate and tax." Legalization is just a political term used to get supporters. Call it what you want, the government and big business call it "control, regulate and tax." Since these are the people who are currently oppressing cannabis users I like to remind myself what this bill is and no project my hopes into "legalization."

Q2. What is YOUR idea of legalization that could reasonably be passed by the entire cross section on CA?

Here's a start and the guidelines under 215 where I live. 3lbs, 100 square feet flowering per person. What are the guidelines for growing tomatoes?

Q3. How long, and what will it take to convince the majority of CA voters on your stance.

Does it matter. Since the "greedy" growers who have been fueling this movement for the last 50+ years are doing such a good job of overgrowing the government, the state has decided to play ball and try to get in on the market. People look at this as our only chance. I look at it as the fascists first chance. If they don't pass this they will have another one on the table in two years. That pie is too big not to get their hands into. Big business and government will get this passed in the near future, I just don't agree with their first offer. Especially when 215 offers a good political stand against the oppressors.

If you are beating up a bully, do you stop because he said he only wants 1/2 your lunch money now?

 

[JJScorpio]

If you guys want to see something inspiring, go over to Tom Hills forum and check out the "growing big plants" thread. Nomaad and the guys have some ungodly huge plants.

Some of those plants would smoke me up for 5 years, lol....

 

[nomaad]

Q2. What is YOUR idea of legalization that could reasonably be passed by the entire cross section on CA?

Here's a start and the guidelines under 215 where I live. 3lbs, 100 square feet flowering per person. What are the guidelines for growing tomatoes?

Is that Sonoma?

You bring up a very important point. I would hate to see 19 voted down without a clear idea of what we want passed in 2012. You can't just say that this bill is a piece of shit and you won't vote for it without having something in hand that you WOULD vote for.

 

[igrowone]

Is that Sonoma?

You bring up a very important point. I would hate to see 19 voted down without a clear idea of what we want passed in 2012. You can't just say that this bill is a piece of shit and you won't vote for it without having something in hand that you WOULD vote for.

a much more useful topic, when i saw the language for commercial MJ in tc2010, i knew that would trigger a shit storm
i would have thought allowing personal growing and being able to carry a reasonable amount of MJ would have been a slam dunk
the growers wouldn't have cared all that much since you can already grow under 215
it wouldn't have been that big a change, but i could see a 2 to 1 win at the polls,maybe higher
the dispensary model could be used as the commercial surrogate, not perfect but this does provide nearly universal access

 

[dagnabit]

Q1. Why is this not legalization when it protects users in a similar fashion as alcohol?

The prop is called "control, regulate and tax." Legalization is just a political term used to get supporters. Call it what you want, the government and big business call it "control, regulate and tax." Since these are the people who are currently oppressing cannabis users I like to remind myself what this bill is and no project my hopes into "legalization."

would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet?

legal possession
legal cultivation
legal use
path to legal sales

"not legalization"

Q2. What is YOUR idea of legalization that could reasonably be passed by the entire cross section on CA?

Here's a start and the guidelines under 215 where I live. 3lbs, 100 square feet flowering per person. What are the guidelines for growing tomatoes?

commercially? TONS OF REGULATIONS

Q3. How long, and what will it take to convince the majority of CA voters on your stance.

Does it matter. Since the "greedy" growers who have been fueling this movement for the last 50+ years are doing such a good job of overgrowing the government, the state has decided to play ball and try to get in on the market. People look at this as our only chance. I look at it as the fascists first chance. If they don't pass this they will have another one on the table in two years. That pie is too big not to get their hands into. Big business and government will get this passed in the near future, I just don't agree with their first offer. Especially when 215 offers a good political stand against the oppressors.

If you are beating up a bully, do you stop because he said he only wants 1/2 your lunch money now?

what damage has been done?

why would the "bully" in question have a sense of urgency?
they have all the time in the world.

lastly PUBLIC PERCEPTION

do you think the lamestream media will say

"this bill was just to restrictive to pass we need absolute deregulation before it will pass"

sorry i live in the world where the mormons came en masse to suppress the civil rights of the homos.

i live in a world where people can be convinced that iraq had wmd's

perception in the voters mind is stronger than reality.

vote this restrictive bill down and we will get a less restrictive one passed?

WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT?!?!?!?!?