Legalize MJ ! Really? No I mean REALLY?

[grapeman]

We're not calling californians selfish. We're calling the blackmarket dealers who are fighting this legislation selfish because they care more about ludicrous profit margin than they do about the cannabis movement. They don't want to compete on a level playing field, so they're fighting against their own movement!

If that isn't selfish... what is?

Who the fuck is "we"? What? You have a team of posters here?

And again, wtf do you care? Start a movement in your state. You don't live here.

And finally, do you go to work for free? Probably not since you can at least afford internet. So why the fuck do you care if small growers, who I know produce better product then the large scale producers, charge a fair price for their product? You don't work for free. It is work to produce a superior product. Some people don't do their own gardening. Some don't clean their own houses. Some will never grow their own MJ. But you criticize and belittle those who make money growing a product and sell it at fair prices. How do I know the prices are fair? Because people buy it.

Not only are you stupid, you're a fucking socialist. You want someone to charge a "fair price" (your own words) for mj. No one is forcing you to buy shit. And who sets the fair price?? You??

The answer is YES. You do. By buying or not buying a product at a certain price. No wonder we have a socialist of a president. Fucking morons like you get to vote. I suppose you want me to pay for you and your families health care too? How about your retirement? Shall I pay for that also?

Get the fuck outa here.

 

[Anti]

Who the fuck is "we"? What? You have a team of posters here?

We is the royal we. As in, I'm your fucking King.

And again, wtf do you care? Start a movement in your state. You don't live here.

I'm starting a movement TO your state. And I want it to look nice when I get there.

And finally, do you go to work for free? Probably not since you can at least afford internet.

So why the fuck do you care if small growers, who I know produce better product then the large scale producers, charge a fair price for their product? You don't work for free. It is work to produce a superior product. Some people don't do their own gardening. Some don't clean their own houses. Some will never grow their own MJ. But you criticize and belittle those who make money growing a product and sell it at fair prices. How do I know the prices are fair? Because people buy it.

Not only are you stupid, you're a fucking socialist. You want someone to charge a "fair price" (your own words) for mj. No one is forcing you to buy shit. And who sets the fair price?? You?? [/quote]

Right now, the DRUG DEALERS are setting the price. It is inflated because of the ILLEGALITY OF THE COMMODITY! This is why YOU, Grapeman, are fighting so hard!

Not because Mom and Pop growers are working hard to provide superior product! Go and peddle that shit to your idiot friends but don't try bringing it around here again.

I look at my plants two or three times a week for about 45 minutes to an hour each time. That's cloning, harvesting, defoliating, feeding, etc. 3 hours a week.

Anybody could do this. Your anger and socialist rhetoric are SMOKESCREENS.

The answer is YES. You do. By buying or not buying a product at a certain price.

The answer is the supply is in the hand of the criminals and therefore the 'market' price has a big insurance premium passed onto the end user. Legalizing and regulating changes this, which will lower prices. Which you know, which hurts your feelings. So you scream about socialism.

No wonder we have a socialist of a president. Fucking morons like you get to vote.

If you don't like it I suggest you move to a country where citizens do NOT have the right to vote. I suggest you hurry. There are a lot of countries out there that don't want to regulate cannabis! They just kill or imprison you when they find you. Why don't you go to one of those. Run far far away from evil old socialist USA and its silly attempts to regulate and tax a substance you can be EXECUTED for possessing in some countries!

I suppose you want me to pay for you and your families health care too? How about your retirement? Shall I pay for that also?

I am self-sufficient and self-supporting. And I do so without slanging.

Get the fuck outa here.

Your impotence is palpable. Your uppance comes.

Socialism my ass.

 

[dagnabit]

You want someone to charge a "fair price" (your own words) for mj. No one is forcing you to buy shit. And who sets the fair price?? You??

as it is right now...the government sets the price by increasing the "risk" associated with the product.

 

[Anti]

Well where do you cut the line? Are you ecstatic with 25sqft? Or are you content?

Well, I'm with you. I'd rather no limit at all be imposed on growing.

But the thing is, this bill allows each local community to set their own maximum growing area. How much easier would it be for you to get your neighbors and friends together and convince your local city hall that you want the space increased to 10x10 or 50x50?

It's in the BILL!

Would you be happy with 15sqft? What about 10? You realize that you only get 25sqft per residence (per home, not per person). So if you live alone, that is one thing, but if you live with roommates who want to grow, you have to share or split up your 25sqft.

If it's that bad I see nothing in the wording that suggests that you couldn't rent a 5x5 storage locker somewhere and get the landlord's permission and grow (and store) your herb there. You could carry 1 oz home with you every day.

It'd be a pain in the ass... but then you and your roomie could keep different strains (this works with non roommates) and then trade.

If that didn't fly (not a lawyer) worst case scenario you and your roomie get seperate 1 bedrooms and the money you save by growing your own will offset the money you spend for the added apartment cost.

How much do you smoke? We all smoke different amounts.

I smoke from the moment I get home from work til I go to bed at night. For the last 15 years. On days off I smoke from first waking until sleeping. During high stress times in my life I have wake-n-baked before work, smoked at lunch, etc.

I smoke more than anybody I know. And I know a lot of people who smoke. I can have a massive surplus while smoking even more than I currently do if I expand my operation tenfold.

Why do you, Anti, think what is good for you must be good for the rest of the people? Do you realize others have needs that may far exceed yours? Or maybe they have less needs, we are all different.

I don't. I think 5x5 as an absolute minimum that can be increased according to the local community's whim beats the fuck out of state prison for any non-medical grower.

As few as 5 years ago I was living in So Cal and had HEARD about medical cards but nobody I knew had one and we were all very suspicious about the idea. And of course, we were buying it at $50-60 an eighth.

How much do I smoke Anti? How much will my 25sqft organic soil grow yield? Do you know? Can you tell me?

I don't know any of that. If you're a medical grower... get your card. You can grow more than the 5x5. If you aren't... petition your local government to increase the limits on personal possession.

Also, Ive seen your posts/recommendations on configurations for growing in that 25sqft. No where did you show where you keep your mothers, clones, harvest/drying plants, or dried bud over an ounce. That all has to be kept in the 25sqft.

If you look at my most recent pics, you will see that there is space for the harvest/drying plants. You will also note that my cabinet as designed is 1.5'x4' which includes a mom/clone/veg cab and a drying cab. You could harvest the stuff right on the lid of the cabinet and put it right in the drying area. You could build a little cupboard on top of it and put your curing jars in there. Just have a little imagination.

There are millions of other ways you could utilize 5x5. What if you took 3 1000k bulbs and hung them all in a vertical line... one at 2ft, one at 4ft and one at 6ft and then surrounded them with bookshelves full of plants. Put all of that in a 4x5 area and then have a 1x5 partition for veg clone. Harvest from the stadium room perpetually. You'll pull way more than my setup and you'll get nice big bushy plants like you like.

I have a problem with this because cigarettes that cause cancer and a list of other ailments can be smoked on public streets/ in your own home with your kid on the couch.

I totally agree with you. I am disappointed that this is in there. But why is it in there? It's there to placate the "save the children" bible-thumpers (who VOTE!) It's not likely to be enforced unless you are doing something blatent around OTHER PEOPLE'S kids. It's not like police are going to be going door to door looking for parents smoking up in the living room.

I wish it wasn't in there... but non-medical patients are breaking the law by doing it even if they never had children! This is a SOFTENING of the law, not a new evil. Right now, if you're non-medical... you can't smoke. If they aren't enforcing that... why do you think they'll enforce this?

With this prop19, you CANNOT smoke on your driveway on a hot August night, you CANNOT smoke during a bbq or any other event when minors (kids under 18) are around.
Not a biggy, but it does peave me.

Peeves me, too. I wish it wasn't there. I wish the world was progressive and liberal and everybody was rational and worked together... but unfortunately this world is evil in a lot of ways. And this is a very minor evil when you consider that I cannot currently smoke during a barbeque even if NO minors are present because I do not have a doctor who says I'm an invalid.

This can be a thread of its own.
Wow so rapists and vehicular manslaughterists get less time then some of these "criminals"? A "crime" in which NO PARTY CAN CLAIM INJURY, warrants the imprisonment of an individual for up to seven years? Give me a break. Prop19 does not save people from cruel and unusual imprisonment. It simply does not.

If you are arrested for smoking a jay at a backyard barbecue with your kids present, I suggest you use this very defense and further liberate us all!

I agree that these people need to be held responsible, but not for the prison terms that are written. And what about the parents? WHAT ABOUT the individual (15, 16, 17 year old kid) that actually smoked! Why doesn't he get a prison term?

Because he's a minor?

This just teaches to shift blame and personal responsibility onto someone else, as well as over-punishing others.

How likely is it in the state of California that anyone is going to get 7 years in state prison because a 17 year old was caught smoking a joint at a barbecue that adults were present at?

I dont like this because you only get 25sqft if you live/grow alone. If you have a roomate that wants to grow, you each get 12.5 sqft or have to share your grow (styles, strains, equipment, everything!!).

I agree. Id like this better if it was 25 sq ft per person. Or better yet... unlimited per person. But it beats the shit out of 0x0 per person. And you or your roommate could qualify for medical and then you aren't limited by this bill.

One has to keep mothers, vegging plants, flowering plants, clones, harvested/drying plants, AND harvest bud over an ounce within the 25sqft.

Does your home have 8, 10 or 14 foot ceilings? You could make a pretty tall weed cabinet that could encompass all of the things you mention.

Its just bogus and I dont want to have to worry about going to prison because of grow size guidelines.

Current grow size guidelines is 0. Current possession guideline is none.

My fingers/brain are tired, so I'll stop there and post this up, grab a bowl and proof read to see if I forgot anything/need to change something.

I feel you.

If I was still a commercial grower, I wouldnt be worried about legalization right now on any level in terms of profit, considering I could still sell my product. I grew a premium product (still grow it, but just for me now, for personal meds) which carried a premium price. Think Sauza : Don Julio..

I have already made this similar argument in favor of legalization in other threads. I see no reason that people shouldn't get whatever price they can get in a legal setting.

The reason I bring up the "dont call us selfish" is because that is what I hear from everyone that is pro prop19. That the anti prop19'ers are selfish.

Most of the arguments (unlike this post) have no substance and raise strawmen to then rally against. This leads me (and others) to believe that they have ulterior motives behind their machinations.

My intentions are plain... i intend to move back to california and pursue my right to the pursuit of happiness by quietly growing my own quality cannabis to share and swap with my friends.

Well I'm tired of that because a lot of the people arguing with legitimate concerns are being labeled as "black market protectors" when in fact a lot of the people aren't even commercially growing. Its like the valid concerns get mixed up with the "invalid" ones.

You have a valid point. Not everybody who is opposed to this bill are commercial growers out to protect their profit margins.

Some of you are legitimately concerned about aspects of the bill. I just think that most of these concerns are hysterical fear reactions brought on by the smear campaign being put on by the black market guys.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond with your real thoughts. I have given you mine in return. I wish you no harm.

 

[Thundurkel]

I just say keep it MEDICAL!!! How hard is it to get a card here in Cali I'm mean seriously??? The weed sold to and resold by the clubs is taxed already! 18 year olds are allowed med cards I mean the new bill is just a way to toss minors in jail for smoking up cuz right now they can't do that here in my state. Also plant count is no more so they are going to go from that to this 5x5 bullshit? Also if you are poor you can get a free Compassion Card from Medi Cann and get your card FREE! Plus you support the local growers and clubs and help give jobs to all the different folks involved in the med scene and I really hope it stays this way...

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

you guys are still missing the point. if you want the federal government to listen to anything the pro pot side has to say we have to make it an election issue. the only way to do that is to put the pressure on by defying them more. by making it even harder to enforce. We must also make it profitable enough to persuade the nation that pot and hemp are viable products that can help our economy and environment.

the point is not to keep it medical. that is a charade for many people, and responsible adults should not have to censor perfectly acceptable actions and hide away like Ann Frank. Drug laws are some Fascist b.s., and I cant beleive people would vote no on the best chance since 215 to weaken them. It makes no sense that people cant see the big picture here.

Also if the bill said we couldnt grow then there would be no point to it, but you can grow so get off it.

voting no on this bill is passing up the most amazing opportunity the entire state of cali has ever had, just because the original opponents of this bill are scared of change and cant adapt over to legitimate capitalism from a black market trade system. that is what it brakes down too.

people of cali, prove to me that you have some view of the larger picture and the logic behind what I saying, by voting yes on prop 19. otherwise just dont vote. stay home. voting no on this really does make you a trader of sorts. Even though you have been tricked into it, you have joined up the prohibitionist suits the second you check that no box. not voting at all is at least just a show of no confidence, which isnt near as objectionable or ridiculous.

ALSO REMEMBER. THIS BILL DOES NOT EFFECT PROPOSITION 215. 215 WILL BE SAFE

 

[grapeman]

We is the royal we. As in, I'm your fucking King.



I'm starting a movement TO your state. And I want it to look nice when I get there.


So why the fuck do you care if small growers, who I know produce better product then the large scale producers, charge a fair price for their product? You don't work for free. It is work to produce a superior product. Some people don't do their own gardening. Some don't clean their own houses. Some will never grow their own MJ. But you criticize and belittle those who make money growing a product and sell it at fair prices. How do I know the prices are fair? Because people buy it.

Not only are you stupid, you're a fucking socialist. You want someone to charge a "fair price" (your own words) for mj. No one is f ' orcing you to buy shit. And who sets the fair price?? You??

Right now, the DRUG DEALERS are setting the price. It is inflated because of the ILLEGALITY OF THE COMMODITY! This is why YOU, Grapeman, are fighting so hard!

N[/QUOTE]

Yeah BS. You aint coming here. That's your line so you think you can continue to be relevant.

And you continue to show your fucking ignorance. Drug Dealer's set the price??? WTF. Never took an economic class 'eh? It's called supply & demand... even within a semi- black market. And BTW, this law will not eliminate the black market. It will only effect regulations on growers and consumers. And tax. don't forget the tax.

I'm not fighting for anything. I just still waiting for you to make a salient point.

 

[OMountainMix]

To be honest, I think the consumer somewhat sets the price, even when it is illegal. If they don't want to pay $400 an ounce, they say no, or they go by schwag. If the pot is super fine, they pay the $400 an ounce, even if they normally wouldn't. In my area, there is a lot of sub par pot coming in from large warehouse grows north of here. It looks pretty good, tastes pretty good, but it isn't flushed, and it sizzles, you all know what I mean by that, I assume. The people getting it in bulk are paying $325 an ounce and everyone else is paying $350. People that want to are buying that instead. Others wouldn't bother, b/c it's maybe 75-80% as good as what is grown by the local mom and pop growers around here. When it first came around, it hurt the mom and pops a little bit, but that didn't last for long. Mainly, it's younger dudes who like to eat out and party a lot and don't have as much money for pot b/c of that. Everyone else is continuing to pay the $400 an ounce, b/c frankly, the pot is a lot better from mom and pop.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

I think the price goes up by about 20 to 30 percent due to the black market. honestly the price of weed wont drop if it is legalized because the overhead cost of a grow isn't going away, and the demand will increase due to the inevitable increase in the market size. also the tax cost added on will be passed down to the consumer. So as supply increases, demand will as well, which brings on more logistical costs.

so I think the cost price argument is done for. Passing this bill is mostly symbolic to the nation, and also keeps the person that cant or wont get a med card out of jail, for personal use, or growing.

The argument now turns to the tax issue. just think how much less you could pay in taxes toward state prisons. 800,000 people a year multiplied by the average cost of about 25,000 dollars a year average per inmate. lets say only 1/6 of them serve actual time. this adds up to over 3 billion dollars

 

[grapeman]

We is the royal we. As in, I'm your fucking King.


Socialism my ass.

And another thing that you never learned in school. black markets only exist where governments restrict free trade.

This law (as ALL laws do) will add more regulations. More government regulations = black markets. All black markets are the result of government regulations and restrictions. All of them.

Now add the TAX that is coming and for sure the Black Market isn't going anywhere. Now, all we've got to show for it is giving more money to our fucked up government to pay for YOUR fucking health care.

I told you a month ago to read Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" so you won't look so stupid posting here. Hurry up before it's too late for you.

 

[dagnabit]

This law (as ALL laws do) will add more regulations. More government regulations = black markets. All black markets are the result of government regulations and restrictions. All of them.

there is no stricter regulation than prohibition.

this legislation (not a law) lessens regulations from prohibited to restricted.


please stop lying?

 

[WheelsOG]

there is no stricter regulation than prohibition.

this legislation (not a law) lessens regulations from prohibited to restricted.


please stop lying?

THIS IS CORRECT

This vote in California will have an impact on the rest of the world's marijuana laws in my opinion.

Even though this bill is far from perfect, it is the best thing on the table. If this bill doesn't get voted in, I believe there won't be a vote for legalization for a very long time.

 

[grapeman]

as it is right now...the government sets the price by increasing the "risk" associated with the product.

And I guess you don't understand anything that has to do with economics either. You still have not finished your assignment, which was to read "Free to Choose".

This law will not eliminate any black market. A whole slew of new regulations will be coming along with NEW taxes = more black market.

You know they have iTunes U where you guys that are blind to the effects of government regulations might find a lazy way to learn something. For free.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

And another thing that you never learned in school. black markets only exist where governments restrict free trade.

This law (as ALL laws do) will add more regulations. More government regulations = black markets. All black markets are the result of government regulations and restrictions. All of them.

Now add the TAX that is coming and for sure the Black Market isn't going anywhere. Now, all we've got to show for it is giving more money to our fucked up government to pay for YOUR fucking health care.

I told you a month ago to read Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" so you won't look so stupid posting here. Hurry up before it's too late for you.

this will take away from the black market heavily in cali, but will increase the size of the black market in the usa overall. the difference is it will be just a bunch of mules that work for american growers rather than cartels. the result will be a much less violent black market. hippy growers wont shoot you generally, unless they catch you ripping there crop, but at that point it is justified a little.

the black market will still be there, but the cartels will slowly grow weaker, or just charge more for coke, heroin, or meth. This will cause more violence around these drugs which will force the DEA to concentrate more on those actual narcotics, and stop wasting there time with pot.

to me, the bottom line is still vote yes on prop 19, for moral reasons, and to bring it this to the largest possible national stage. this way we can get what we all want. federal legalization.

 

[Razer(x)]

THIS IS CORRECT

This vote in California will have an impact on the rest of the world's marijuana laws in my opinion.

I hope you're right, but it's really hard to happen.

 

[grapeman]

I see the antagonists here have found a friendlier thread with synced mind think.

 

[dagnabit]

I see the antagonists here have found a friendlier thread with synced mind think.

not so much as one without so much childish posturing....

 

[grapeman]

not so much as one without so much childish posturing....

Childish? I am not the one thinking this bill (or hoping along with your out of state cohorts) if passed, will have a dick's amount of difference in the world. You attribute much to this bill, and your opinion of the value of your vote is comical. LOL. Change the world.

In reality, California used to lead and others followed. but that is no longer true. Our politicians have spent this state into bankruptcy and the only reason this is even being considered is so the state can keep taxing and spending instead of fixing the problem. California is now the laughing stock of all states. Pssst. No one is following us anymore.

But then I don't allow MJ to influence my politics like teenagers do. What will you ever do if this fails?

Me? I'll just go to work in the morning.

 

[dagnabit]

Childish? I am not the one thinking this bill (or hoping along with your out of state cohorts) if passed, will have a dick's amount of difference in the world. You attribute much to this bill, and your opinion of the value of your vote is comical. LOL. Change the world.

In reality, California used to lead and others followed. but that is no longer true. Our politicians have spent this state into bankruptcy and the only reason this is even being considered is so the state can keep taxing and spending instead of fixing the problem. California is now the laughing stock of all states. Pssst. No one is following us anymore.

But then I don't allow MJ to influence my politics like teenagers do. What will you ever do if this fails?

Me? I'll just go to work in the morning.

let me help with your assumption problem...

i vote in cali
im a teenager with a few decades experience
and as for work in the morning..i dont do that anymore..retirement is grand.

you never could explain how me being able to grow my own smoke in my own home hurts you soooo bad?

maybe with a little experience that chip on your shoulder will fall off...

 

[stickey fingers]

GREEDY BASTARDS

GREEDY BASTARDS

AS A MED PATIENT FOR 10 YEARS,GROWER ,SMOKER FOR OVER 20, AND MY ASS A RIGHT TURN AWAY FROM FEDERAL PRISON ,HAVE NEVER LET ANY ONE CONTROL MY CANNABIS NOR WILL I EVER TILL THE DAY I DIE ! YOU GOT TO PAY TO PLAY, WEATHER ITS THE GAME OR TAXES ESPECIALY IN CALI, WERE THERE CLOSEING SCHOOLS,HOSPITALS,FIRE STATIONS,PEOPLE STILL WANT A FREE RIDE,WHAT THEY NEED TO DO GIVE UP THE WALEFARE,GET THE FUCK UP, OFF THIER STUPID STONED ASS,AND QUIT RIPEN OF THE PEOPLE .SERIOUSLY IF NOT THE CRAP OUT OF THIER MOUTHS ITS THIER COMMERICAL GROWN CRAP THEY TRY TO PUSH OFF AS MEDS JUST TO MAKE A BUCK! IM GLAD THAT THE PEOPLE THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO, NOW BELIVE THE DRUG DEALERS AND PUSHERS ARE UNITEING WITH ARE GOVT TO MAKE SURE PROP 19 IS NOT PASS. FREE THE WEED YES ON 19 WE WILL DEAL WITH ALL THE BULLSHIT WHEN WE GET TO IT,THE READ BETWEEN THE LINES FUCKING GREED WILL KILL US ALL!