ICMAG Administration endorses The Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010

[StoneElemental]

I think before any further assumptions over the bill are made we should quote the portion of the bill as reference to the subject. We should also have mods help verify that it is actually in the bill and the users can interpret it for themselves. I constantly learn more and more about this bill and still I don't see much wrong with it especially considering this bill can be amended or a new bill passed to override prop 19. This way we get progress and compromise. I.E. : Don't think 5'x5' is enough? vote/petition to amend it. Come now everyone we all have most of the same ideas in mind lets keep them onboard and this train rolling.

-S.E.

 

[Bacchus]

if it were clear that less people would be going to jail, you'd have a lot more weight with commercial growers.

What the hell are you smoking???? Convincing someone to loose their income stream in order to be compansionate to others?? You are living a la la land.

 

[Hydrosun]

"When Prop 19 passes all of these CA Producers will become TAX EVADERS and FELONS for having more than 25' or they can go public and try for a permit." Um - these people are either growing under 215, which they still will be able to, or they are already "TAX EVADERS and FELONS". Meanwhile, the under <25 sq.ft. folks become legal, and perhaps the biggest thing of all is the bullshit invasion of privacy drug testing gets tossed. Sounds like a win to me.

Well you are in the state of Jefferson so try this one on.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." Thomas Jefferson.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. " Thomas Jefferson.

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression. " Thomas Jefferson.

"Delay is preferable to error. " Thomas Jefferson.

"I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too." Thomas Jefferson.

"I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master." Thomas Jefferson.

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion." Thomas Jefferson.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson.

So as it goes now growers in CA are subject to a CA and federal income tax like all Californians, but they are not subject to any excise tax on their production. Prop 19 will establish yet another layer of oppressive taxation and regulation. After reviewing my Jefferson I feel strongly that he would vote NO on 19.

 

[nomaad]

as always cannabis should be kept away from children, they should not be able to get hold of it and use it and i fully support harsh police action against those involved in supplying it to underaged people.

The part regarding minors that is being argued is the following language:

(iv) smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present.

It's ambiguous. It does not define "space." Is that a room? A home? A backyard? If a cop smells herb from my yard and hears kids playing in the same "space" what is your liability?

No such laws exist for alcohol or tobacco.

One poster mentioned that a bong on your table, visible from the window is no longer probable cause for search. But what about if there is a Care Baers coloring book on the table next to it?

100% valid concern with the language of the prop.

 

[Kwazee Wabbit]

So, let's say leo see's a coloring book next to your bong or vaporizor. Will he have the authority to smash in your door, molest your wife and kids and shoot your dog?

 

[StoneElemental]

I thoroughly agree and thus this should be clarified by the courts along with other portions of the bill. And thank you by the way.

-S.E.

The part regarding minors that is being argued is the following language:

(iv) smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present.

It's ambiguous. It does not define "space." Is that a room? A home? A backyard? If a cop smells herb from my yard and hears kids playing in the same "space" what is your liability?

No such laws exist for alcohol or tobacco.

One poster mentioned that a bong on your table, visible from the window is no longer probable cause for search. But what about if there is a Care Baers coloring book on the table next to it?

100% valid concern with the language of the prop.

 

[nomaad]

What the hell are you smoking???? Convincing someone to loose their income stream in order to be compansionate to others?? You are living a la la land.

i do it all the time. why should I assume that compassion does not affect the decisions of others as well.

all I am saying is that the argument would have weight if the argument actaully existed. as it stands its just an idea. nobody has made the argument convincingly, so expecting anybody to figure it into their decision is the part that is a fantasy.

 

[nomaad]

So, let's say leo see's a coloring book next to your bong or vaporizor. Will he have the authority to smash in your door, molest your wife and kids and shoot your dog?

I am more worried about realistic concerns like CPS starting a file on my family.

 

[Kwazee Wabbit]

I believe 19 will take the thuggery out of the cannabis laws.

 

[localhero]

I think before any further assumptions over the bill are made we should quote the portion of the bill as reference to the subject. We should also have mods help verify that it is actually in the bill and the users can interpret it for themselves. I constantly learn more and more about this bill and still I don't see much wrong with it especially considering this bill can be amended or a new bill passed to override prop 19. This way we get progress and compromise. I.E. : Don't think 5'x5' is enough? vote/petition to amend it. Come now everyone we all have most of the same ideas in mind lets keep them onboard and this train rolling.

-S.E.

needing mods to qualify valid arguments (lol).

the idea of pessimism vs. optimism seems to me to be the fence on this prop.

is my view pessimistic (realistic?) that big money will alter 19 in their favor?

or is it optimistic, that we as growers who (united) have the potential to defeat these foul interests?

you know, i posted a thread a while back about the potential power a United Growers Front would have in the fight for cannabis rights.

the response was.... weak.

 

[medmaker420]

I have issues with many taxes that we currently pay. My gripes are with income tax and not really with sales taxes. I think if you are to do business in a city/state then it should be up to the state to figure out a price. I do not however think that should be "product independent" either though.

Prop 215 protects me just fine but there are also many who can't qualify for it and are simply hoping they don't have issues. Protection for the simple grower/smoker is what is needed. The big mersh growers should have the cash to figure out how to make their grow legal by now and if they don't want to then odds are there are other reasons behind it.

Would I want to make 1 million in a year and then the next get taxed 50% of my earnings simply due to a law passing? (not saying that is the percentage BUT income brackets and added taxes odds are won't be pretty) Hell no I wouldn't want that BUT that is NOT what an average grower is doing.

I think the 5x5 makes sense as far as protecting those who are supplying themselves and a few around them. Of course those who are doing huge crops are pissed BUT it is currently illegal so why bitch about ANYTHING AT ALL. Continue growing as you were except there might be some more competition and who knows what the tax liabilities will end up being for all of this.

Cigs used to be $8-$10 a carton when I was smoking in high school, now I am paying $5-$7 a pack for "american spirits". I see them doing the same of course to our meds but I don't see it going that far that fast.

First thing is legality, make things a bit norml and then as the tax/laws try and get changed whether from our side or the governments side we will go from there.

Those who are complaining about the legalization need to realize that once it becomes legal we can IMPROVE the law, it is much harder to reintroduce legalization AFTER it failed.

 

[rives]

Hydrosun, perhaps Jefferson would have opposed 19. I think that his opposition would have stemmed more from the fact that the total population of the U.S. at that time was around 700,000 (wikipedia), or about the size of one medium city in California. Even with the limited communications capabilities of the day, and considering the mindset of the populace (fiercely independent), the possibility of getting something nearer to what you want passed was probably significantly higher. This bill certainly has it's bad points, but I think that it is about all that we can reasonably (or even unreasonably) hope for passage at this point in history.

 

[Hydrosun]

"When Prop 19 passes all of these CA Producers will become TAX EVADERS and FELONS for having more than 25' or they can go public and try for a permit." Um - these people are either growing under 215, which they still will be able to, or they are already "TAX EVADERS and FELONS". Meanwhile, the under <25 sq.ft. folks become legal, and perhaps the biggest thing of all is the bullshit invasion of privacy drug testing gets tossed. Sounds like a win to me.

A few more.

"To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, ‘the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, & the fruits acquired by it." Thomas Jefferson.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson.

I think the take away is grow your own and quit trying to tax and regulate your neighbors.

 

[Kwazee Wabbit]

The only problems with 19 are related to commercial growers. 99 percent of Californian stoners will be freed from the Nazi-like grip leo has on us right now!

 

[StoneElemental]

You misread I think, it's to help validate that someone didn't twist the bills words for anyones arguement. Which was just an idea. And if citizens did a little more standing in their lives lobbyists would be held accountable for their actions and the people would have more say by using their say more. As for a unified movement, if involves collectively smoking a joint in a public place or mass plantation over the nation to battle back in a way theres no wonder the response was weak. Even if a person doesn't know the term for it they know it's conspiracy to commit a crime which if you haven't ever thought about it is a felony. Much worse than 6 months in jail for "contributing to the delinquincy of a minor" mind you. If I assumed wrong sorry please clarify better next time.

-S.E.

needing mods to qualify valid arguments (lol).

the idea of pessimism vs. optimism seems to me to be the fence on this prop.

is my view pessimistic (realistic?) that big money will alter 19 in their favor?

or is it optimistic, that we as growers who (united) have the potential to defeat these foul interests?

you know, i posted a thread a while back about the potential power a United Growers Front would have in the fight for cannabis rights.

the response was.... weak.

 

[hotmellons]

legal not legal. what kin of man want illegal crazy

 

[Hydrosun]

The only problems with 19 are related to commercial growers. 99 percent of Californian stoners will be freed from the Nazi-like grip leo has on us right now!

You are correct, but is it right for us to throw the growers in prison in order to allow the smokers to be free from the NAZI or should we stand united and not accept any imprisonment of this community?

 

[localhero]

You misread I think, it's to help validate that someone didn't twist the bills words for anyones arguement. Which was just an idea. And if citizens did a little more standing in their lives lobbyists would be held accountable for their actions and the people would have more say by using their say more. As for a unified movement, if involves collectively smoking a joint in a public place or mass plantation over the nation to battle back in a way theres no wonder the response was weak. Even if a person doesn't know the term for it they know it's conspiracy to commit a crime which if you haven't ever thought about it is a felony. Much worse than 6 months in jail for "contributing to the delinquincy of a minor" mind you. If I assumed wrong sorry please clarify better next time.

-S.E.

maybe i take for granted that ive read the actual wording of prop 19 many times. im all for qouting the actual wording. im against mods then qualifying the interpretation of the interpretation.

and no, when i posted the thread to open a discussion regarding the, "how to's" and the, " benefits" of creating a United Growers Front, i wasnt talking about people smoking weed on the white house lawn (sounds like fun though).

i was talking about igniting the power potential of all of us as a lobbying block.

because, no successful revolution has taken place without the backing of a repressed monied class. think invention of the house of commons, think american revolution.

if lobbying scares you, it does me too. but american politics are interest driven politics.

 

[medmaker420]

legal not legal. what kin of man want illegal crazy

Well I think it can be looked at a couple ways.

If it stays "medical" and how it is, allow more to get cards and become safe sounds perfect to me. I don't classify herb like cigs or alcohol in the least because as medicine it is 100% plausable and actually WORKS.

Keeping it medical and not the norm can keep things the way they are but even then many commercial growers were bitching about medical marijuana benefits. I doubt they will ever be happy if more COMPETITION comes into play.

I think there should be legalization without a million restrictions that seem to simply allow people to still get locked up due to odds are bogus charges.

Cigs and alcohol are not like herb, now we are going about the legalization the same way we did with alcohol as far as having medical rights first BUT besides that they shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

I worry about the taxation aspect of things. At least as a prop 215 patient the only thing I have to pay for is the $100 renewal of my card and nothing more. If I go to a dispensary I can pay $55+ an 8th OR grow my own with my $100 card and pay nothing in taxes or have liabilities to keep any size parameter as far as my grow goes except for my plant count recommended by my doctor.

Either way, I say legalize now which will WAKE UP a ton of older folks who are still stuck on the "drugs are bad mmmkay" and tend to think MARIJUANA as that evil gateway drug.

After legalization, our rights are GIVEN (which is sad in itself) and there will end up being many closet smokers and many in the 50yrs+ range who can finally get out of the smokers closet.

Sad how many people focus on what others might think of them especially when we are only talking about an herb that has never killed or harmed anyone on its own since its/our existance.

legalize now - fix and tweak the laws later

--

Or we can vote no, keep everything how it is and then expand on the prop 215 fight. If we went this route you know they will tighten down the reigns as far as who can qualify FOR medical marijuana cards and odds are the cards will get higher priced and who knows what will happen if all the "Free aid" and insurance companies start paying for those cards. I see those going sky high for the "Cash card buyers" just like regular prescription drugs currently are.

pay $5 copay if you have OUR insurance
or
pay $500 cash without insurance

who really knows when or where any of this will go and as sad as it is, all of this is left in the hands of the politicians who sit around and fuck us over day in and day out.

I am voting yes on this bill even though I personally don't like how it is written up. I don't think restrictions of any kind need to be made on GROWING A FUCKIN PLANT. It is easier to change the law later then to vote no now and fight to get a more crowd pleasing bill together which will odds are never pass the house vote anytime soon.

Do you really think the below would pass

1. grow as much as you want
2. don't pay any sort of tax on anything you grow or sell
3. don't pay any sort of tax from buying it
4. have naked tuesdays for fit females age 18-24
5. be allowed to smoke anytime and anywhere you want
6. all those in jail due to marijuana crimes get released
7. remove all drug tests (which removes a business owners right to run his business as he sees fit)

 

[Bacchus]

...
Do you really think the below would pass
.
4. have naked tuesdays for fit females age 18-24
....

I would vote for that