Yellow Leaves on 10-Week ATF

[Blugras]

Hello, Folks!

I've got two Alaskan Thunderfuck plants growing outside, and one of them is getting lots of fully yellow leaves, which are also drooping. I took off about a dozen yellow leaves a couple days ago (totally yellow), and there are many more on it right now.

Is it a good idea to pinch off the fully yellow leaves? Can those come back to green, or is it best to get them off and let the plant's energy go to healthy growth?

Also, I am trying to figure out what is causing this. These 10 weeks plants are over 2 1/2 feet tall, and a few weeks ago I transplanted them from 1.5 gallon pots to 5 gallon pots.

I have been watering them more since putting them in the bigger pots. I'm guessing maybe I'm overwatering. I've watered every other day roughly, and generally added nutrients (Big Bloom) with every other watering, but I alter it when we've got rainy or dry spells here in Colorado. I use spring water, but they have gotten a fair amount of rain water too. We get lots of short showers, and we've had some long sustained downpours recently.

I'd appreciate any advice, particularly about whether (and how) to pinch off fully yellow leaves.

Here are a few pictures:

1. Yellow Leaves on the plant today (7.11.10):


2. Droopy leaves a few days ago, after I'd pinched off about a dozen yellow leaves (visible behind the pot to the left):


3. The yellow leaves I pinched off a few days ago (next to a weed on the lawn):


Thanks for any help you can offer!

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

If you keep wetting the soilmix frequently, the roots won't grow in search of more water and nutrients, which you want them to do. The rule of watering is; as thoroughly as possible, as infrequently as possible. It also looks like the plants are getting too big for the pots (again) and are N starved. I don't know what's the NPK of Big Bloom?

 

[Blugras]

Okay, thanks.

Big Bloom (Foxfarm) is .002% Ammoniacal Nitrogen, .001% Nitrate Nitrogen, .005% Other Water Soluble Nitrogen, and .002% Water Insoluble Nitrogen. I'm not sure if that answers the NPK question. It's made from earthworm castings and bat guano.

Do you suggest removing the fully yellow leaves?

 

[Tr33]

is there splotching on the yellow leafs?
I'd guess bugs before nute def and a root bound pot, I wish I could see a better close up pic of the leaves, as that will hekp determine whats actually going on with your plant.
The images are just way to small and make for a wrong diagnosis, like root bounded pots, that's not what root binding looks like.

 

[Blugras]

I'll try to get another picture or two in. I think there probably is splotching. Initially, they were just pure yellow, but the ones I've left have gotten splotchy.

Here's a close-up from yesterday (if you click the pics, you can see them bigger):



And here's one from today:



Does the cause of the yellowing affect whether or not to remove the yellow leaves? I am eager to get a response on removing the yellow leaves so I can do that if I should. I don't want to remove them if they might go green again.

Thanks again!

 

[Xtensity]

That yellowing looks like a nitrogen deficiency.... usually that's the easiest one to identify, it was the first one I learned about.

Big Bloom alone does NOT have enough nitrogen to sustain a plants nitrogen needs. If you're going to use Fox Farms you should be using the trio, Grow Big, Big Bloom, Tiger Bloom.
Here's the suggested feeding schedule.
http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/soilfeed.pdf

It also looks like you have other microelement deficiencies forming, which you should check up on and fix. I would look over this thread carefully. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

If the leaves aren't a brown and fallen off then they can come back from the yellow. I would NOT remove yellowing leaves, or it will just continue to pull the nitrogen from the other leaves until the entire plant is yellow then dead.

Maybe since you've pinched leaves off with such frequency, you might be able to start defoliation and use it to your advantage for more yield... Though if you're a beginner I'm not sure you should try it.
defoliation:https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163

 

[lumenator]

apply ferts, pot it up

 

[mrk8814]

Your ph is too low, therefore locking out nitrogen, check runoff and water/flush @ 6.5-6.8 ph.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Yeah, they look N starved and the BigBloom has hardly any. It's hard to see the ratio of pot size to plant in the pictures, but vegging plants can easily outgrow their pots in just a few weeks. It seems fairly likely that a repot is in order. Oh, on the leaves? Don't worry, just let them fall off in their own time, that's the least of your problems.

 

[Blugras]

Thanks!

For what it's worth, the plants are about 30" tall (from the top of the soil) and are in five gallon pots, 10" high and 12" diameter.

I got some Tiger Bloom (2-8-4) yesterday, and gave them 32 ounces of water with 1 teaspoon of the Tiger Bloom (half the recommended dose) and 1 tablespoon of Big Bloom.

On that note, I've been using the Fox Farm Soil systems Feeding Schedule, although I've only used the Big Bloom up to yesterday. I was going by the week of the growth for the schedule, but their schedule figures in Week 10 you've gone to 12-hour light. Since mine are outdoors, I am not at 12-hour light yet, so maybe I should be using the schedule from Week 4, when there are still 18 hours of light. That would call for Grow Big instead of Tiger Bloom.

I've been checking around at my local garden shops, hyrdo shops, and pot shops, and I get a mixed bag of N-starved and over-watering diagnoses. I want to try not to water for a couple days, but we're getting a hot stretch here, upper '90s today.

I checked the ph on my spring water, and I think it's about 6.5. I'll check the run-off next time I water.

I don't mind re-potting if I should. Do you think I should wait for them to stabilize first? I kind of thought 5 gallon pots would be as big as I'd need, but am happy to go bigger if necessary. They are outdoors, and maybe the abundant high altitude sunlight is speeding their growth?

 

[Blugras]

I have two plants, but the yellow leaves were mostly affecting one plant. Today (Wednesday), the other plant woke up droopy, which was the initial symptom that led to the yellow leaves on the first plant. The first plant seems a little better than it had been, and is not as droopy as the second today, but I had removed most of the yellow leaves (before Mr. Greengenes said not to worry about it).

I gave them each a cup today with Tiger Bloom and Big Bloom nuts, after giving them nothing yesterday. I wanted to take a couple days off from water, since some people suggested over-watering was the problem, but I could only hold out for one day off after seeing the droopy leaves today. I would normally give them two or three cups, so maybe I'll give them more in a bit. Hopefully there's some more helpful advice by then.

Thanks again!

 

[Blugras]

Quick update: less than two hours after a cup with Tiger Bloom and Big Bloom, the droopy plant had perked up. I decided to give them more, for a total of 2 1/2 cups of water with nuts. I'll try watering every other day for a bit, and I guess I should add nuts with every other watering.

P.S. What is Coco? (For example, the FoxFarm Feeding Schedule says "In Coco this process is especially helpful, as Coco has a tendency to retain mineral salt build up.")

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

A noticeable 'perk up' could only be from water, not nutrients. 2-1/2 cups sounds like no where near enough to thoroughly wet a 5G root ball. You need to soak that whole pot until you see (a little) runout with each watering.

 

[Blugras]

Okay, I gave up on my plan to take another day off from watering after getting Mr. Greengenes' most recent reply. I gave the plants 3 cups of water without nuts today (Thursday). One had gotten a little droopy again. I watered at 5 p.m. and was away until after dark, so I don't know if there was a quick result or not.

I'll see how things look in the morning and try three cups with nuts (Tiger Bloom and Big Bloom).

Usually water starts dripping out the bottom of the 5 gallon jugs on the 2nd or 3rd cup of water, and I've usually stopped when water has started to drip out. Am I wrong? How many cups would you expect a 30 inch plant in a 5 gallon pot outdoors would need? And how often?

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

If you're seeing water drip out the holes of a 5G pot when only a few cups are poured in? That sounds to me like the rootball is dry which makes it shrink away from the container walls, and water pours right down the side. The right amount of water would probably be around 2-3 gallons. I can't see any way that 2-3 cups of water is soaking the entire root ball of a 5G container.

 

[Blugras]

I think I gave the wrong impression about the "cups" of water. These are 16 ounce plastic cups. So when I say three cups, I mean 48 ounces (or six cups in standard measurements).

Still, it sounds like I should try giving them more. These are outdoors, and we've had five straight days in the 90s, and it feels like they could use more water than normal in these peak-of-summer conditions.

Mr. Greengenes, I was trying to back off on watering after your earlier comment about keeping from watering too much because it keeps the roots from reaching out and searching for more water. But I've never given the plants more than 16-48 ounces a day, and you're talking about 2-3 gallons to water a plant in a 5 gallon pot.

Things do seem to be stabilizing. No repeat slew of yellow leaves like in the first photo, but still a drooping leaf here and a yellow leaf there. Some upturned tips, too, which I think is also a sign of not enough water.

Knock on wood!

 

[mrk8814]

If you are not watering that plant enough to where there is at least 30% runoff then all of those nutes will build up in the soil and become toxic, not to mention change the ph of the soil leading to deficiencies. Fox farm nutes are notorious for causing salt buildup especially if you are using ocean forest soil too. what I do is water my 5 gal pots with 1 gallon of 6.5ph'd water, no nutes, ever, because I use Ocean forest soil. However, I have encountered cal/mag def. in late flower before.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Doh, sorry to get you off on the over before the under. My misunderstanding. Over and underwatering often go hand in hand though. We make a mistake in one direction, then try to correct it by going too far the other. This time, I managed to make the mistake from afar.

 

[Blugras]

If you are not watering that plant enough to where there is at least 30% runoff then all of those nutes will build up in the soil and become toxic, not to mention change the ph of the soil leading to deficiencies. Fox farm nutes are notorious for causing salt buildup especially if you are using ocean forest soil too. what I do is water my 5 gal pots with 1 gallon of 6.5ph'd water, no nutes, ever, because I use Ocean forest soil. However, I have encountered cal/mag def. in late flower before.

Does that mean if I water with a gallon of water, I should be looking for roughly 1/3 gallon to come out the bottom?

How often do you water your 5 gal pots with a gallon of water?

I checked the ph of my runoff today, and it looked pretty close to the ph of the spring water.

And I am using 100% FoxFarm Ocean Forest soil.

 

[mrk8814]

If you water with one gallon, expect a quart of runoff

Whenever the pot feels light...to be more specific I have 6-8' plants and @ 80-90 deg temps they need water every other day. But, those are big plants with more need for water the temps and fans

Here is my advice for your problem:

1. Do not repot, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY those plants are rootbound
2. Wait till pot feels light or plants just start to wilt to water, only water in the morning
3. Cut the nutes off now. There is more than enough nutes in FFOF soil.
4. Next watering ph the water to 6.5 and run a couple of gallons through one pot and take notice of the color of the runoff. If it is orange and brown colored you have a salt buildup. Depending on what overabundance of nute/salt, you will get diff signs on the leaves ie. to much cal will give P def

This proves my point: look at your second set of pictures with the closeup of the leaf, then look at this...http://www.gardenscure.com/420/attachments/nursery-reference/282757d1140371341-nutrient-deficiency-toxicity-salt-buildup-hormone-potassium.jpg