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TC2010/Prop 19 unlikely to pass (new poll results)
- Thread starter Lazyman
- Start date
Peron, co-author of Proposition 215, cites three "fatal flaws" in the Oaksterdamn U initiative . These can be described as limits, taxes, and penalties regarding minors.
Regarding the limits of one ounce and 25 square feet for personal cultivation:
"Imagine a law to “tax and regulate” alcohol that only allows for possession of up to one bottle of wine imprisoning those who exceed that amount, be it two bottles or a small collection of choice vintages. These limits guarantee confusion, harassment and black marketeering forevermore. We don’t control alcohol by imposing a 25 sq. foot limit on grape vines. But one extra gram or sq. foot of pot means jail and even worse; this initiative specifies that if accused of having too much cannabis the burden of proof is on you, not the state."
Regarding taxes:
"Singling out those who want to use marijuana for a huge excise tax is just plain unfair. It maintains cannabis as the most expensive, blatantly overpriced product on the market thus forcing most people to choose cheaper, more dangerous drugs with huge externalized costs to society as a whole."
Regarding minors:
"Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?"
Peron vows that if the proponents "buy" enough signatures to get the initiative on the ballot he will campaign against it:
"This initiative is bad for parents, students and, ultimately, the effort to get the state to stop ruining lives enforcing these draconian pot laws. Initiatives create permanent statutes. This one with its petty restrictions for personal users, prohibitive unfair taxes, and mandatory state prison sentences for teen agers need be nipped in the bud. We will campaign and vote against it should its proponents succeed in purchasing the necessary number of signatures to put it on the 2010 ballot. The tax revenue it will supposedly generate is a mere smokescreen for the kids it will regulate into three, five and seven year state prison sentences."
VOTE NO! VOTE NO! VOTE NO!
Regarding the limits of one ounce and 25 square feet for personal cultivation:
"Imagine a law to “tax and regulate” alcohol that only allows for possession of up to one bottle of wine imprisoning those who exceed that amount, be it two bottles or a small collection of choice vintages. These limits guarantee confusion, harassment and black marketeering forevermore. We don’t control alcohol by imposing a 25 sq. foot limit on grape vines. But one extra gram or sq. foot of pot means jail and even worse; this initiative specifies that if accused of having too much cannabis the burden of proof is on you, not the state."
Regarding taxes:
"Singling out those who want to use marijuana for a huge excise tax is just plain unfair. It maintains cannabis as the most expensive, blatantly overpriced product on the market thus forcing most people to choose cheaper, more dangerous drugs with huge externalized costs to society as a whole."
Regarding minors:
"Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?"
Peron vows that if the proponents "buy" enough signatures to get the initiative on the ballot he will campaign against it:
"This initiative is bad for parents, students and, ultimately, the effort to get the state to stop ruining lives enforcing these draconian pot laws. Initiatives create permanent statutes. This one with its petty restrictions for personal users, prohibitive unfair taxes, and mandatory state prison sentences for teen agers need be nipped in the bud. We will campaign and vote against it should its proponents succeed in purchasing the necessary number of signatures to put it on the 2010 ballot. The tax revenue it will supposedly generate is a mere smokescreen for the kids it will regulate into three, five and seven year state prison sentences."
VOTE NO! VOTE NO! VOTE NO!
the sad truth is that most people really don't care whether its legal or illegal. These people are not even going to bother going to the polls to submit their votes. The retired senior citizens that believe in the evil weed have nothing better to do than to vote no on it.
voter turn out has never been good and i don't see any reason as to why this would change.
voter turn out has never been good and i don't see any reason as to why this would change.
Absolute nonsense. Where do you get that from?
Take your tin-foil hat off for a moment.
ANYONE will be allowed to grow a minimum of 25 square feet. For starters. That's almost 5 kilos a year if you know what you are doing. Without a penny of tax for personal use. Not a penny. Got that? Nada.
So much for the "high profits".
Plus, people will be able to experiment with hemp as an industrial plant. For the first time since the fucking Nixon-Anslinger years. That's as good as for the first time ever. Ever. You going to vote against that?
Really? Against practically anyone in Cali being able to grow with no hassles! You'll vote against that?
Maybe you prefer this?
DEA raid of mmj applicant
Oh, OK so the gov is going to try and get a few pennies off taxes. You don't think that's a tiny price to pay?? No?
Oh, boo-hoo-hoo! That's so, like, unfair...
^^^^
misleading bullshit!!!
25 sq' is a minimum not a maximum....
the language of the bill is clear
"This Act is intended to limit the application and enforcement of state and local laws"
this could not be more clear.
you prohibitionists quote opinions and we quote the bill.
put down your ouija board and stop spreading bullshit.
this bill has absolutely zero effect on 215 and you know it.
do not let your bullshit Utopian idea of completely untaxed unregulated free for all weed sales and consumption let you continue to outright LIE about this bill.
and under 21? get a med rec or dont smoke(shouldn't be smoking anyway)
misleading bullshit!!!
25 sq' is a minimum not a maximum....
the language of the bill is clear
"This Act is intended to limit the application and enforcement of state and local laws"
this could not be more clear.
you prohibitionists quote opinions and we quote the bill.
put down your ouija board and stop spreading bullshit.
this bill has absolutely zero effect on 215 and you know it.
do not let your bullshit Utopian idea of completely untaxed unregulated free for all weed sales and consumption let you continue to outright LIE about this bill.
and under 21? get a med rec or dont smoke(shouldn't be smoking anyway)
Travieso, I don't know if Peron was up to date when he made those statements, clearly a lot of them are downright wrong, and you won't make them right by printing them in BIG LETTERS, you know!
1) 25 square feet isn't perfect but it's a damn sight more than what's available now. So to argue against these is plainly childish, since, a) they don't affect MMJ users, they could be upped by local authorities, the legislation could be favorably amended once passed in this form. SO MUCH FOR LIMITS.
2) Taxes. Absolutley no tax on personal growers. Why do we have to keep repeating this? OK, so big growers supplying the mass-market will be taxed. Oh, boo-hoo-hoo. You also seem to be forgetting that experimentation with hemp will be legal... Oooops, sorry for mentioning that, my bad.
3) Minors. If we start normalizing as a society, perhaps a bit down the line reasonable use by minors won't be an issue. But we're a million miles from that now. Frankly I'm happy for minors carrying on under MMJ rules, if they must.
But you can't argue for what will be a HUGE Prohibitionist victory, and then bitch that this law isn't good for minors. Well you can, I suppose, if you're one of those minors that smoked too much when they should be doing their homework.
So all three points seem rather feeble, when you set them up against what's really happening, i.e. the first semblance of marijuana freedom on this benighted planet. Yeah, let's all piss on it before it's even born.
1) 25 square feet isn't perfect but it's a damn sight more than what's available now. So to argue against these is plainly childish, since, a) they don't affect MMJ users, they could be upped by local authorities, the legislation could be favorably amended once passed in this form. SO MUCH FOR LIMITS.
2) Taxes. Absolutley no tax on personal growers. Why do we have to keep repeating this? OK, so big growers supplying the mass-market will be taxed. Oh, boo-hoo-hoo. You also seem to be forgetting that experimentation with hemp will be legal... Oooops, sorry for mentioning that, my bad.
3) Minors. If we start normalizing as a society, perhaps a bit down the line reasonable use by minors won't be an issue. But we're a million miles from that now. Frankly I'm happy for minors carrying on under MMJ rules, if they must.
But you can't argue for what will be a HUGE Prohibitionist victory, and then bitch that this law isn't good for minors. Well you can, I suppose, if you're one of those minors that smoked too much when they should be doing their homework.
So all three points seem rather feeble, when you set them up against what's really happening, i.e. the first semblance of marijuana freedom on this benighted planet. Yeah, let's all piss on it before it's even born.
And what precisely do you think would happen to you and your buddy under the CURRENT LAW. I am assuming neither of you have medical licences, since that would be covered by TC2010.
So, what DOES the law currently provide for you supplying a minor, that you think this is so much worse? ....Well?
kinesis
Member
Regarding minors:
"Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?"
can you cite that??? where in the bill's text is that? i havent heard anything about prison terms for minors consuming a joint. that sounds pretty ridiculous.
even still minors can get a med mj card and supercede this law.
still a stupid reason to pass up on a once in a life time chance at pot legalization/regulation/industrialization. I want pot vegas. I dont care what you want... California = The next Pot Vegas... like Las Vegas.. except people come here to get high.
Yeah dude who gives a fuck about minors. They are kids and shouldn't be smoking anyways. If they absolutely have to they can get a med mj note and supercede this law.
This is about ADULTS 21 and over. Think about this folks
ONCE IN A LIFE TIME CHANCE TO LEGALIZE
Wont be on the plate ever again.
I can promise you!
Lawmakers will only pretend to be 'working on it' and to be honest it will finally happen when pigs fly.
This is the only chance we've got.
FUCK minors! Fuck Pissy Peron! He's just jealous Oaksterdam kicked his ass out and fired him.
Why do we give a FLYING FUCK what the originators of PROP 215 have to say? THIS ISNT ABOUT SELFISH FRAUD MEDICAL MARIJUANA BULLSHIT.
THIS IS ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND THEIR FREEDOM TO POSSESS AND GROW THEIR OWN OUNCES.
Fine, if JACK didnt want this passing. I'm sure he wanted it legal either way no matter what. Or else his whole life was a fallacy.. The mission he claimed wasn't real...
Everyone is just jealous at Richard Lee he is in a position to dominate the industry, create Oaksterdam as a tourist destination - and that's it! They're afraid.
"Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?"
can you cite that??? where in the bill's text is that? i havent heard anything about prison terms for minors consuming a joint. that sounds pretty ridiculous.
even still minors can get a med mj card and supercede this law.
still a stupid reason to pass up on a once in a life time chance at pot legalization/regulation/industrialization. I want pot vegas. I dont care what you want... California = The next Pot Vegas... like Las Vegas.. except people come here to get high.
Yeah dude who gives a fuck about minors. They are kids and shouldn't be smoking anyways. If they absolutely have to they can get a med mj note and supercede this law.
This is about ADULTS 21 and over. Think about this folks
ONCE IN A LIFE TIME CHANCE TO LEGALIZE
Wont be on the plate ever again.
I can promise you!
Lawmakers will only pretend to be 'working on it' and to be honest it will finally happen when pigs fly.
This is the only chance we've got.
FUCK minors! Fuck Pissy Peron! He's just jealous Oaksterdam kicked his ass out and fired him.
Why do we give a FLYING FUCK what the originators of PROP 215 have to say? THIS ISNT ABOUT SELFISH FRAUD MEDICAL MARIJUANA BULLSHIT.
THIS IS ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND THEIR FREEDOM TO POSSESS AND GROW THEIR OWN OUNCES.
Fine, if JACK didnt want this passing. I'm sure he wanted it legal either way no matter what. Or else his whole life was a fallacy.. The mission he claimed wasn't real...
Everyone is just jealous at Richard Lee he is in a position to dominate the industry, create Oaksterdam as a tourist destination - and that's it! They're afraid.
so if you were to write this bill what would you put in there instead?
you gotta draw the line somewhere
As of right now if your are 18-20 years old and get caught with under an ounce they usually just take it away and the most they can do by law is fine you 100 bucks!
O
OrganicOzarks
"So, what DOES the law currently provide for you supplying a minor, that you think this is so much worse? ....Well?"
Feds say a minor is under 21. States say a minor is under 18. I would think that if you passed your 20 year old buddy a joint then you would be getting him high. If you guys both got caught then maybe you get a ticket under the current law. Under the new law though you would be getting sodoimized for 6 months or so. Sounds like a no brainer for me. If I had the ability to vote no on this I would too. It is not the right bill. People want MJ to be legal so badly that they will go for any monopoly, profit, power hungry bill they can get to vote for. THis is the wrong bill on the wrong year. It needs to be tightened up and redone in 2012. Then it will pass. Richard "Dick" Lee jumped the gun out of pure greed. No seems like the way to go for me.
Feds say a minor is under 21. States say a minor is under 18. I would think that if you passed your 20 year old buddy a joint then you would be getting him high. If you guys both got caught then maybe you get a ticket under the current law. Under the new law though you would be getting sodoimized for 6 months or so. Sounds like a no brainer for me. If I had the ability to vote no on this I would too. It is not the right bill. People want MJ to be legal so badly that they will go for any monopoly, profit, power hungry bill they can get to vote for. THis is the wrong bill on the wrong year. It needs to be tightened up and redone in 2012. Then it will pass. Richard "Dick" Lee jumped the gun out of pure greed. No seems like the way to go for me.
kinesis
Member
Yeah dude its like how Man kills endangered species. LIke the Dodo.. We just do stupid sick things that make no fucking sense. Like voting No on this. It makes absolutely FUCKING no sense at all. and it makes me really pissed off that people are falling for the media hype, being swayed by this RAND and Public Safety First propaganda .. Weren't corporations and the media the same organizations that lied to us in the Reefer Madness era?
Fully legalize it for everyone 18 and older. Not have to go to jail for getting caught with 29 grams. Not go to jail for blazing with a 20 year old buddy. That just a few thingz i would like to see changed!
Doesn't sound good. I'd like some more clarification.
It's just that all the other "NO" arguments (personal tax, 1oz limit, Phillip Morris, etc, etc) have been shot in flames from the outset, I'd like to be sure that this isn't some more paranoid, creepy propaganda.
markscastle
Member
You`d be suprized how many senior citizens smoke pot young one! AARPpolled members and it showed members are in favor of legalising marijuana by some 82%! I`m not for prop 19 but would like to see it decriminalized like Jack Herer wanted!
O
OrganicOzarks
A big corporation is the one trying to get this bill passed. It is also the one that wrote the bill to make sure and maximize profits. Richard has already been talking with the City of Oakland about a 175,000 sq ft manufacturing/packaging facility and they said they will approve it if the law passes. It will be able to produce about 53 pounds per day. The big corporations are going to come in and fuck up the cannabis industry. The only thing you can do is strain hunt and make yourself like a small elite winery. If not you will not be a part of the new cannabis industry that is taking shape across the country. Maine just gave out 6 licenses for dispensaries. 4 of them went to a company in Berkely. One of the biggest and most likely to get a license in R.I. is being funded by Steve Diangelo out of Harborside. I would love for someone to try and see how many companies Steve Diangelo has. It is fucking mind boggling. Sub company after sub company after sub company. THe only good thing about the industry going this way is that it will knock a lot of people out of the game. There will always be elite niche markets. That is your only hope.
Not just the Governator, but Whitman and even Jerry Brown have said they oppose legalization. So, no matter who ends up governor, there is no top-ranking support in the state.
Lee already has a 100K light (yes 100,000 1000W lights) warehouse in Oakland, and is already building a 200K light warehouse somewhere in LA. A member on IC actually visited the 100K and said it was staggering.
Also, look up Agramed or the other two companies buying up councilmembers in Oakland, they want to grow industrial quantities of herb and force the smaller growers out of business. Screw that!
Lee already has a 100K light (yes 100,000 1000W lights) warehouse in Oakland, and is already building a 200K light warehouse somewhere in LA. A member on IC actually visited the 100K and said it was staggering.
Also, look up Agramed or the other two companies buying up councilmembers in Oakland, they want to grow industrial quantities of herb and force the smaller growers out of business. Screw that!
we don't live in a perfect world, it would be very hard for an initiative to be written to please everyone.
This initiative is going to allow you to grow in the privacy of your own home. Stockpile as much pot as you want in your humidity/temperature controlled pot cellar. They aren't going to allow you to carry more than an ounce on you, but in all reality when do you need to be carrying those amounts other than if you would be selling to others?
When people first turn 21 and can drink legally its nearly impossible to be around all your friends and not consume alcohol without people that are underage. These things go on all the time everywhere even though there are laws against it.
Laws are not too hard to follow, its also not very hard to break the law here and there and never be caught.
These tiny little problems within the initiative really shouldn't be a factor when we are considering bringing pot in the mainstream eyes and away from the taboo that reefer madness has placed on everyone for decades.
