(fairness act) conspiracy theories and free speech

[SpasticGramps]

Great thread bro. Good to see some more people reading the Federalist Papers. The Establishment (government, media, and banks) is starting to consolidate power quicker and quicker day by day.

The economy is about to take a massive shit IMO. Housing is going to crash with commercial real estate right behind it. These people operate under Machiavellian principles and will use the crisis to complete their consolidation of power. After all the crisis is engineered for that specific purpose anyway. When you have the power to create economic incentive and do it for destructive means, this is the end result (global Corpo-Fascism).

These next few months until the end of this year will be very telling. When they come for your freedom of speech and right to bear arms it will be in the guise of "helping you." When that time comes it will be Gun N' Garden time.

Don't fall for the Problem, Reaction, Solution BS. They aren't here to help us, but rather enslave us.

 

[Texicannibus]

Great thread bro. Good to see some more people reading the Federalist Papers. The Establishment (government, media, and banks) is starting to consolidate power quicker and quicker day by day.

The economy is about to take a massive shit IMO. Housing is going to crash with commercial real estate right behind it. These people operate under Machiavellian principles and will use the crisis to complete their consolidation of power. After all the crisis is engineered for that specific purpose anyway. When you have the power to create economic incentive and do it for destructive means, this is the end result (global Corpo-Fascism).

These next few months until the end of this year will be very telling. When they come for your freedom of speech and right to bear arms it will be in the guise of "helping you." When that time comes it will be Gun N' Garden time.

Don't fall for the Problem, Reaction, Solution BS. They aren't here to help us, but rather enslave us.

Thanks to all who have chimed in so far. I think this is something we can all come together on. I would never silence anyone although I may be guilty of not listening ...

Thanks to the mod who has moved this thread.

Thanks Spastic for dropping in. I feel that you have a very well informed opinion. I also agree with many points you make about our current economic status.

I totally agree with the notion of the federal,state and sometimes even local goverments continually using the excuse of 'protection and helping' as a way to increase their powers. Very few people truely understand even the basics of our goverment. Id love to have a wide open discussion on politics and dont really understand why IC doesnt allow such considering the allowance of religious discussions.

The reason even a Democrat, Progressive, Liberal or whatever should pay attention to this ... is once the Federal goverment has speech in their domain ... whoever is in power will have control. Imagine the religious right if they have the power to control speech.

Lastly Id like to submit a new subject in this larger framework to discuss. Would people here consider the muzzle put on military constiutional? Does it not violate the first ammendment? I have never been in the military so maybe they sign away this right? Hate speech is another way that free speech can easily be attacked. Remember you do not have to listen.

 

[White-rhino]

wow you are very correct. This is a sad turn of events. The nation is torn in two right now, but If these are enforced I imagine there will be a straight up civil war. I have been thinking for the last few years that we are teeter tottering on the brink of civil war and just waiting for the final straw.

I dont like the Tea Party folk, but If my freedom of speech is threatened I will grab a rifle and join them in a second. Either that or Join GN and the IC crew in the netherlands. Things are going to far, and if they wont listen to or voices and votes, then what choice will we have?

Yeah, its a cold civil war, and has been for nigh on 9 years or so.

I fail to see how this ISN'T a (R), (D) issue since they are basically the two diametrically opposing viewpoints with the exception of "compromisers" who are also the enemy of freedom since they believe it best to compromise with tyranny. As if half evil is something to strive for.

It'll come to fighting openly, with real guns. Always has, and always will.

Good thing is - who smokes weed will be the least of our worries at that point. And like when the USSR fell, Vodka and Levis was the currency of choice. In the US it will be moonshine and Americas beloved weed. So stock up.

 

[MrBomDiggitty]

Its not really about Republican and Democrat because they are on the same side of global world domination. They are in league with one another to herd the crowds of sheep.

 

[White-rhino]

Thats not the way I count the recent roll call votes. They seem pretty clear cut to me.

 

[Texicannibus]

Yeah, its a cold civil war, and has been for nigh on 9 years or so.

I fail to see how this ISN'T a (R), (D) issue since they are basically the two diametrically opposing viewpoints with the exception of "compromisers" who are also the enemy of freedom since they believe it best to compromise with tyranny. As if half evil is something to strive for.

It'll come to fighting openly, with real guns. Always has, and always will.

Good thing is - who smokes weed will be the least of our worries at that point. And like when the USSR fell, Vodka and Levis was the currency of choice. In the US it will be moonshine and Americas beloved weed. So stock up.

I am hopeful that people will come to see what these factions they have aligned themselves with will bring about as a result. I know this may seem naive but if I dont have hope then what do I have. Democrats and Republicans... both step on your liberties and freedoms. They have different end goals yet strangely similair. Both envolve world domination and power being consolidated. This is why this is a bipartisan issue.

Surely you would agree that the average American supports freedom of speech. Maybe not the average political hack but they are minorities.

 

[trixman22]

Dems and republicans are two different wings of the same bird of prey. They are a soap opera to make the people think they have a choice.

Sometimes I feel like we are on the verge of civil war but then I realize we are no where close. Look at how the country was divided during Viet Nam. That was the closest to civil war our country has been since the civil war. We are no where near the numbers of passionate Americans as back then. To many Americans are dumbed down and don't care about politics. They are way to concerned with what Britty Spears is having for dinner or who the next American idol winner will be.

For the guy telling ppl to listen to Alex Jones to get educated I say this. Educate your self. AJ is a fear mongering lair. He has money to make that is what he has to gain from lying. If you think he is a saint telling nothing but the truth for over a decade then I say check out his y2k broadcast, if thats not fear mongering then I don't know what is.

 

[mrk8814]

" I am the champion of the constitution. " - Ron Paul

 

[Greensub]

That HealthCare Bill is going to cost us trillions if it isn't stopped..that's guaranteed. but this is all part of the same issue.

Yes... I don't think they did that great a job on what we got, I was referring to the original 1000 pager that included the public option, I read most of it and for the most part liked it... it was innovative.

But ya that's a little off topic from this thread (it's been awhile since I read this thread the first time; I'm trying to catch up)

 

[Greensub]

Well first of all Pearl you seem to be referring to campaign financing and lobbies. I have addressed this previously in other areas but yes they are covered by free speech. Just because someone has more money and influence than someone else does not give one the right to gag their speech. The consitution is not about group rights it's about individual rights. The cooperations are made up of individuals that have the right to free speech.

Want to make note that I am totally against bribes, payoffs, and 'special deals'.

I don't follow your reasoning in red... are you saying that groups of individuals like a corporation are not groups but "individuals" after all according to what you've said the constitution is about individual rights... are you saying a corporation (I'm assuming you meant corporation) is not a group but an individual?

As for the first part... I'm thinking about it right now, something about that statement rubs me wrong.

 

[Greensub]

I am hopeful that people will come to see what these factions they have aligned themselves with will bring about as a result. I know this may seem naive but if I dont have hope then what do I have. Democrats and Republicans... both step on your liberties and freedoms. They have different end goals yet strangely similair. Both envolve world domination and power being consolidated. This is why this is a bipartisan issue.

Of course they're similar, both of their goals are to make big money from big business and screw us all over at the same time apparently.

I'm not a libertarian by any means, although I used to think so, but I thought about and realized I like building codes, financial regulations, oil company regulation, the FAA, post office, fire department, and yes government health care (I've had to use it before and was glad it was there) so I consider myself a Progressive Libertarian (pretty oxymoronic, but I like it)

 

[Texicannibus]

I don't follow your reasoning in red... are you saying that groups of individuals like a corporation are not groups but "individuals" after all according to what you've said the constitution is about individual rights... are you saying a corporation (I'm assuming you meant corporation) is not a group but an individual?

As for the first part... I'm thinking about it right now, something about that statement rubs me wrong.

I am saying that in a free society you cannot avoid factions. A corporation is made up of individuals who have similair goals, ambitions, and generally motives for goverment. Some corporations want less regulation for instance because that would help there bottom line. While other companies that make safety equipment for instance lobby for more regulations wich help their bottom line. These are simply groups of individuals who share a common interest. Norml is a lobby. I support Norml's efforts and all the other marijauna reform lobbies. So does George Soros hes got a ton of money ... runs a huge hedge fund... should Norml be silenced? No of course not and niether should corporations. With the internet its easier than ever to wage a anti PR campaign.

 

[Texicannibus]

Of course they're similar, both of their goals are to make big money from big business and screw us all over at the same time apparently.

I'm not a libertarian by any means, although I used to think so, but I thought about and realized I like building codes, financial regulations, oil company regulation, the FAA, post office, fire department, and yes government health care (I've had to use it before and was glad it was there) so I consider myself a Progressive Libertarian (pretty oxymoronic, but I like it)

In my opinion you have fallen into the PR trap layed by the Democrats and Republicans (especially the religious right and neocons).

Being a libertarian does not mean no rules or laws. It does not mean that building codes. regulations the FAA and the post office have to go away. You see thats why they are generally happy to put Ron Paul on TV is because he represents the radical side of libertarianism to some degree wich reinforces there agenda.

You think federal standards are used in building codes? Hate to be the fellow to enlighten you but building codes are done by the city or state not the federal goverment. In the county in Texas you can build any shack you like. In the city your forced to abide by the city building codes.

The FAA is obviously a good role for the federal goverment. I as a libertarian have no issue with it although I could see it being privatized and probably being more effective and effecient.

Post office... this is a specific job given to the Federal goverment by the U.S. Constitution...

Fire Dept ... Again locally provided. This is not the role of the federal goverment and does not go against libertarianism.

Typical fear tactics used to make people afraid of libertarians.

 

[Greensub]

I am saying that in a free society you cannot avoid factions. A corporation is made up of individuals who have similair goals, ambitions, and generally motives for goverment. Some corporations want less regulation for instance because that would help there bottom line. While other companies that make safety equipment for instance lobby for more regulations wich help their bottom line. These are simply groups of individuals who share a common interest. Norml is a lobby. I support Norml's efforts and all the other marijauna reform lobbies. So does George Soros hes got a ton of money ... runs a huge hedge fund... should Norml be silenced? No of course not and niether should corporations. With the internet its easier than ever to wage a anti PR campaign.

I disagree, board members of a corporation have similar goals ambitions & motivations... that doesn't include all the people who work for/make up/contribute to the corporation. It is not a group who's views are in anyway democratically coalesced. Rather it's hierarchy is more reflective of castes to my thinking. I don't think that having money should make your opinion more important than someone else's, which is how it works now (even more so since this recent court decision)

But as far as Norml being silenced... no one's speech should be restricted. But something needs to be changed about the way we elect our officials, what we have now is clearly not working that great (just look to the oil spill). If that means no one gets to give money to politicians and they're all on an even playing field I wouldn't mind... I think it would be a huge improvement.

I don't think giving someone money or property should be covered as free speech. It's not speech, it's not an idea, an expression of a viewpoint or anything of the nature of speech or communication in any way shape or form. It's just a thinly veiled bribe that is destroying our government.

 

[Greensub]

In my opinion you have fallen into the PR trap layed by the Democrats and Republicans (especially the religious right and neocons).

Being a libertarian does not mean no rules or laws. It does not mean that building codes. regulations the FAA and the post office have to go away. You see thats why they are generally happy to put Ron Paul on TV is because he represents the radical side of libertarianism to some degree wich reinforces there agenda.

You think federal standards are used in building codes? Hate to be the fellow to enlighten you but building codes are done by the city or state not the federal goverment. In the county in Texas you can build any shack you like. In the city your forced to abide by the city building codes.

The FAA is obviously a good role for the federal goverment. I as a libertarian have no issue with it although I could see it being privatized and probably being more effective and effecient.

Post office... this is a specific job given to the Federal goverment by the U.S. Constitution...

Fire Dept ... Again locally provided. This is not the role of the federal goverment and does not go against libertarianism.

Typical fear tactics used to make people afraid of libertarians.

Ok, sorry about mixing federal and state, I wasn't necessarily thinking along those lines at the time. More along the general mantra of less government that I hear all the time and the us vs them mentality. We are the government, or we're supposed to be, but we see again and again corporate interests being protected at the expense of the general population (bank bailout)

I have a feeling that we agree on a lot more than it seems... we just draw the line in a different place.

 

[Greensub]

In my opinion you have fallen into the PR trap layed by the Democrats and Republicans (especially the religious right and neocons).

Being a libertarian does not mean no rules or laws. It does not mean that building codes. regulations the FAA and the post office have to go away. You see thats why they are generally happy to put Ron Paul on TV is because he represents the radical side of libertarianism to some degree wich reinforces there agenda.

You think federal standards are used in building codes? Hate to be the fellow to enlighten you but building codes are done by the city or state not the federal goverment. In the county in Texas you can build any shack you like. In the city your forced to abide by the city building codes.

The FAA is obviously a good role for the federal goverment. I as a libertarian have no issue with it although I could see it being privatized and probably being more effective and effecient.

Post office... this is a specific job given to the Federal goverment by the U.S. Constitution...

Fire Dept ... Again locally provided. This is not the role of the federal goverment and does not go against libertarianism.

Typical fear tactics used to make people afraid of libertarians.

Whoops... I almost believed you, but as usual someone from the right is misleading in their statements...

"Wikipedia - (not the greatest source but handy in a pinch)
The National Electrical Code (NEC), or NFPA 70, is a United States standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment. It is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). "National Electrical Code" and "NEC" are registered trademarks of the NFPA. While the NEC is not itself a U.S. law, NEC use is commonly mandated by state or local law, as well as in many jurisdictions outside of the United States. [1] The NEC codifies the requirements for safe electrical installations into a single, standardized source.
The "authority having jurisdiction" inspects for compliance with these minimum standards."

While it is not enforced nationally but locally, it is a national code...


Therefore...

You think federal standards are used in building codes? Hate to be the fellow to enlighten you but building codes are done by the city or state not the federal goverment. In the county in Texas you can build any shack you like. In the city your forced to abide by the city building codes.

Wrong...

also... they're part of the National "FIRE" Protection Association

 

[Texicannibus]

I disagree, board members of a corporation have similar goals ambitions & motivations... that doesn't include all the people who work for/make up/contribute to the corporation. It is not a group who's views are in anyway democratically coalesced. Rather it's hierarchy is more reflective of castes to my thinking. I don't think that having money should make your opinion more important than someone else's, which is how it works now (even more so since this recent court decision)

But as far as Norml being silenced... no one's speech should be restricted. But something needs to be changed about the way we elect our officials, what we have now is clearly not working that great (just look to the oil spill). If that means no one gets to give money to politicians and they're all on an even playing field I wouldn't mind... I think it would be a huge improvement.

I don't think giving someone money or property should be covered as free speech. It's not speech, it's not an idea, an expression of a viewpoint or anything of the nature of speech or communication in any way shape or form. It's just a thinly veiled bribe that is destroying our government.

Somehow you consider corporations or 'rich people' different. I find it pretty interesting. It seems you have no concept of free speech. It has nothing to do with what you agree with. So explain to me how that CEO's vote is more than our vote? Thanks

 

[Texicannibus]

Whoops... I almost believed you, but as usual someone from the right is misleading in their statements...




While it is not enforced nationally but locally, it is a national code...


Therefore...

You think federal standards are used in building codes? Hate to be the fellow to enlighten you but building codes are done by the city or state not the federal goverment. In the county in Texas you can build any shack you like. In the city your forced to abide by the city building codes.

Wrong...

LOL equipment... They are regulated on a federal level. UL standards and all.. jeez some people are just to dense to have a discussion with. Anyhow tell me how I was wrong. Since I see this all the time and Ive yet to see the Federal goverment swoop in...

 

[Texicannibus]

Pointless discussion please keep it on topic and lets not derail it on your obviously whacked view of what libertarianism reflects. Thats not the subject of this thread. If you like I can post pages of how progressives have taken away freedom(including speech) by abandoning the constitution... It solves nothing.

If you want to discuss campaign financing and muzzling peoples speech that you disagree with start a thread on it.

 

[Greensub]

Somehow you consider corporations or 'rich people' different. I find it pretty interesting. It seems you have no concept of free speech. It has nothing to do with what you agree with. So explain to me how that CEO's vote is more than our vote? Thanks

It's not his vote I'm talking about... but his bribe. What he's given to a lobbyist to give to a politician to get what he wants... you know... American politics.

Sorry, I didn't mean to really derail the convo (I was just glad to have a conversation on a Sunday afternoon)... just some of the views accepted in the thread so far as obvious really aren't. I do agree with your concern expressed in the OP. I would like to actually see the proposed legislation before I really pass judgment on it, but it sounds misguided at the least

(and you were talking about dense... no need for ad hominim abusive informal fallacies; let's just stick to facts)