Self Pollination vs Cubing Process???? why cube?

[englishrick]

sam is the dude who coined the term "True Female",,,,,getitreal asked some intresting questions about the trem on the W/Feminized thread,,,,i dont think the term is set in stone "yet"

my mate Jones says its just an issue of "hardyness",,,,,,,,

imo,,,all you gota do is find a plant that is deffinely not Monoecious,,,,,,identifiying strongly active sex chromozones is the key,,,,,,,

imo,,,the reason why plants are Monoecious is because there sex chromozones have become inactive and the the pseudoautosomal regions have come into effect

^^^^is my opinion true??,,,,,,,as you know im just learning myslef

 

[xmobotx]

darwinsbulldog, ALL the breeders are going to tell you that their breeding practices are along the lines of the selection you described

but, i m certain all of them are pursuing a sort of "holy grail"

and, that talk of bagseed being undesirable cause they throw hermies is rough around the edges too - since the plant is going to try to pass on progeny no matter what and this would tend to be more a product of stress than strain

its exactly as you already have figured, there will be phenos that tend to 'stay' female moreso than others

and, the only way you can be certain that your lines are based on such phenos is to do it yourself

which is in no way intended to belittle any breeder - because i m also certain that many of them do follow good breeding and line selection practices

i m just saying 'certain' for yourself

 

[darwinsbulldog]

cheers for that xmobotx i see what you mean. englishrick sounds like you're on the right track if not correct, i haven't looked into it far enough to comment yet though. lol last exam today phewww friggen statistical maths and i'll be done and can read up on this area, i've got about 20-30 papers in front of my bed on cannabis sex determination among other things to get through, as well as 10 more breeding, growing books that arrived in the mail the other day... looks like a lot of my few days off before having to do more write ups will be spent reading up on this stuff haha cheers for the input everyone

 

[generalgrievous]

IMO .... Males read the environment around them and write the genetic code accordingly..... Quasi breeding without them leaves gaps in that genetic code....

And we have bottlenecked environmental weekness... Mutations... Autoflowering males... Genetic drift....

Mr. Soul in his original write up of c99 claimed it won't hermi... Not sure if that's true.... Just got some f2's though....

Selfing seems great for carbon copy fem seeds to grow out but has no place in breeding....

 

[toryscum]

IMO .... Males read the environment around them and write the genetic code accordingly..... Quasi breeding without them leaves gaps in that genetic code....

And we have bottlenecked environmental weekness... Mutations... Autoflowering males... Genetic drift....

Mr. Soul in his original write up of c99 claimed it won't hermi... Not sure if that's true.... Just got some f2's though....

Selfing seems great for carbon copy fem seeds to grow out but has no place in breeding....

Clearly you have never read a breeding book then or even some of the threads in here !.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

sorry generalgrevious i'd have to disagree and agree with toryscum... selfing definitely has a great place in breeding especially when one is specifically trying to rearrange the genes of a single parent, by selfing that parent one produces many progeny that have the same genome as the mother just rearranged through recombination when gametes are created. the same goes for cross pollinating of two females, it's as equally useful as natural reproduction if not even more so as it's as genetically "healthy" as the prior, though produces all female progeny. by only using females in a breeding program one is able to potentially use their selection methods for females on twice as many individuals.

 

[toryscum]

sorry generalgrevious i'd have to disagree and agree with toryscum... selfing definitely has a great place in breeding especially when one is specifically trying to rearrange the genes of a single parent, by selfing that parent one produces many progeny that have the same genome as the mother just rearranged through recombination when gametes are created. the same goes for cross pollinating of two females, it's as equally useful as natural reproduction if not even more so as it's as genetically "healthy" as the prior, though produces all female progeny. by only using females in a breeding program one is able to potentially use their selection methods for females on twice as many individuals.

Add to that the fact that one round of selfing in a line can actually restore some genetic diversity.. theres many tools to be used within breeding, fact is WE as cannabis lovers/breeders/hacks do not utilise many nor do we bother with PROPER techniques, seems we think we are above all other botanists. Times will change eventually, so perhaps we should change our thinking with regard to how we breed!.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah that's it, assuming the female isn't too homogenous / stabilized. yeah i'm hoping to get my hands on a few plant breeding books in the near future and learn much more about these techniques and how to take full advantage of them in breeding.

cheers again for the info toryscum

darwin

 

[englishrick]

yep,,,if the entire world only had 1 clone of cannabis,,,,selfing it would produce genetic divercity,,

 

[darwinsbulldog]

here's a question for you guys.

1. when inducing male flowers in females with CS or STS can it be done locally? what i mean is, can you select one or more isolated branches to treat with the CS or STS to get male flowers only appearing on those branches, is the hormone change local? or does the hormone change throughout the entire plant so that if you spray one part of it, hormones are produced and spread throughout the plant with male flowers popping up in indiscriminate locations?

i ask because while breeding i'm sure i'd be much interested in getting bud off a plant while also being able to produce seed from it, to then posthumously select for quality smoke after harvest.

2. is this sex determination of cannabis a bit of a one way street with females being the only sex that is able to exhibit the other sex's flowers through stress? i'm thinking males won't be able to as to do so they'd require 2 X chromosomes, in which case they'd be a female. i'm still fresh to the genetics side of cannabis sex determination so will have to read up on it tonight, anyway i've a feeling the answer will be know, but just thought i'd ask either way. can you get male plants to produce female sex organs (bud) through similar stress techs?

cheers guys!

 

[IV XX]

I've thought of this same question Darwin, glad to have found your thread. Seems the consensus here is cubing is a waste of time unless someone want reg seed and chances of creating the orig mom to a T are slim. I have a cube project going and have just gotten the 3rd Bx seed harvested. The c99 story inspired me. So it seems the direction this thread is going, cubing is a waste of time? I have some bomb azz weed that says it isn't. Is it exactly like mom yet, no.Then going to selfing threads and talk of hermis and if environmental factors can cause a plant to self it's shit? I really don't know what to believe anymore here at ic. I know I'd like to have a cut of what some claim can't be selfed through environmental stress and see for myself. Think for me I'm really gonna watch who I take advice from (people who have done it!). Happi growin all!

 

[generalgrievous]

Clearly you have never read a breeding book then or even some of the threads in here !.

Quite the opposite scum..... Reading is what I do...

I do like to keep an open mind... And you guys got me thinking...got a girl I would love to keep around forever...

Perhaps you can steer me towards a thread or two that may enlighten me.....

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah at the end of the day i guess every technique has it's place, just depends on what you're trying to achieve and how you're going about it that decides whether or not it's a good idea.

I've thought of this same question Darwin, glad to have found your thread. Seems the consensus here is cubing is a waste of time unless someone want reg seed and chances of creating the orig mom to a T are slim. I have a cube project going and have just gotten the 3rd Bx seed harvested. The c99 story inspired me. So it seems the direction this thread is going, cubing is a waste of time? I have some bomb azz weed that says it isn't. Is it exactly like mom yet, no.Then going to selfing threads and talk of hermis and if environmental factors can cause a plant to self it's shit? I really don't know what to believe anymore here at ic. I know I'd like to have a cut of what some claim can't be selfed through environmental stress and see for myself. Think for me I'm really gonna watch who I take advice from (people who have done it!). Happi growin all!

 

[darwinsbulldog]

hey mate, have a look for one called what is w/feminized seeds in the breeding section. it's probably 50 pages + long with heaps of info about why feminized seeds are as good if not better than regular seeds in some ways, and how the processes differ etc.

darwin

Quite the opposite scum..... Reading is what I do...

I do like to keep an open mind... And you guys got me thinking...got a girl I would love to keep around forever...

Perhaps you can steer me towards a thread or two that may enlighten me.....

 

[toryscum]

Quite the opposite scum..... Reading is what I do...

I do like to keep an open mind... And you guys got me thinking...got a girl I would love to keep around forever...

Perhaps you can steer me towards a thread or two that may enlighten me.....

must of been the wrong books... I'm not talking Mr men..

 

[toryscum]

Quite the opposite scum..... Reading is what I do...

I do like to keep an open mind... And you guys got me thinking...got a girl I would love to keep around forever...

Perhaps you can steer me towards a thread or two that may enlighten me.....

Well selfing her, will reveal all about her. theres some info on here to about doing a BC, I think it was Chimera who posted it, but I tell everyone to DYOR.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah that's it tory scum, assuming the female you're selfing isn't too stabalized (homozygotic at most loci/genes - no variation in each gene), if it's highly heterozygotic and has a lot of multiple allele types at each loci of a gene then you'll get them all recombined in many different variations and can then see which combinations are really good, average and terrible. Back crossing is a little similar, works best when your parents are both pure breeding but for different traits ie pure sativa vs pure indica. so that the offspring are heterozygous for both sativa/indica traits (hybrid - F1), backcrossing it to produce offspring that are similar to it's parents pheno/genotype wise. whereas if you crossed the hybrid with a sister/brother hybrid you'd end up with the 1:2:1 mendel's punett ratio, = lots of variation in the offspring of F1 x F1.

 

[CFP65]

now maby a bit off question but i have just made a S1 batch of The White using CS, and sowed out some of the resulting seeds.
and in this S1 generation there is one male (its definately to the Sativa side) where as the others are more broadleaf

and i thought it would be funny to make regular seeds from a backcross to the mother, but im a bit confused as how to pronounce the cross
would it be something like this
BC1 (The White x The White) x The White S1

 

[hoosierdaddy]

If that is a plant from a forced pollination, then it's no male.
Sounds more like rouge pollen to me.

 

[CFP65]

well. to calculate the chances of that
1. its a new tent, not used before
2. i have had no males other than the CS treated Clones of the same plant as the mother.
3. the pollination took place in first week of april (thats early spring) so no other outdoor plants in the whole contry in bloom.
4. i have been living in this flat for 3 years, and have had a grow some 2 years ago with a pollination, but the whole room where the tent is in got cleaned out and rearranged before setting up the new tent.

so if you are rigth it should be pollen form another flat flying in to my apartment and infesting my grow, (april here was one big drench in rain)
or some 2 year old pollen from the grow before that hit the grow.

the point against this is that i should then accidently pick that wild pollinated seed to plant as the first of all the app 1600 seeds i got form the forced pollination,
the resulting plant (despite its sativa traits vs. the others indica) exhibits the same anomalys as the other plants from the same S1 batch shows eg. short middle fingers, an even number of leaves, same colour / smell.

i will find some more photos of the plants so you can see