Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[spleebale]

Ed Rosenthal say there are negative ROOT MITES, though!

http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/articles/4664.html

From what you tell us, this seems most likely the case! This may necessitate a completely different regime, as mites are not susceptible to imidacloprid. Spinosad in high strength is minority effective I think - probably also Azatrol/Azamax and other mite treatments. I would also try Spectracide Triazicide, as that is supposed to have effect on mites as well.

 

[Rabbits]

Thanks RetroGrow and spleebale for you vote of confidence regarding my 'Imid buds.'
You lifted my spirits considerably.

In my case it was a foliar spray and over the 30 days after application I flushed the potting mix several times (as much as I thought the plants could tolerate) and also sprayed the leaves and buds with fresh water every day.
The reason I flushed the growing medium was to wash out any run off of Imid from the leaves & buds.

Thanks for your help guys.

 

[puff adder]

OK, I've given 2 applications of Imid, and it's been a week or so, and I'm still finding some flyers in my blue sticky traps, and under some pots.

I will apply the Imid another time (I'm still in veg).

I also have Azamax, and Spinosad, and some Takedown Pyrethrins that I think can be used as a soil drench.

What would be best, Imid, then an Azamax soil drench a few days later, or Imid and follow up with ???

 

[smurfin'herb]

Ed Rosenthal say there are negative ROOT MITES, though!

http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/articles/4664.html

From what you tell us, this seems most likely the case! This may necessitate a completely different regime, as mites are not susceptible to imidacloprid. Spinosad in high strength is minority effective I think - probably also Azatrol/Azamax and other mite treatments. I would also try Spectracide Triazicide, as that is supposed to have effect on mites as well.

I didnt see any pics of root mites in that link. But ill tell you what, that pic you posted is identical to what im looking at. I think the extra two legs you are looking at are actually antennae, not legs. I will try to get more pics, because trying to research this bug, i have found so many different bugs/insects that look sooooo similar and they all look diff at each stage of life so its hard to pinpoint. And plus i google image searched multiple diff types of spider of mites and the same damn pics come up an some are obviously mislabled. Its like nobody knows what mite is part of which tribe. Some of the pics of Cyclamen and russet mites kind of looked close, but some didnt at all.

Edit... I just checked on my ladies again, and OMFG! These things work fast!! In just two days, all the bottom fan leaves on my plants are drooping/hanging by a thread and then falling off. Thats like 20% of each plant just destroyed! It weird how its acting like a primary nute deficiency. The damage is starting from the bottom and working its way up. I kind of think of a plant root system working like this.....Each root has its own leaf/shoot that its responsible for. If that root is destroyed, then so is the leaf/shoot that it was providing for. If this was true, and you had bugs eating your roots, then you would see damage all over the plant and it WOULDNT start from the bottom and work its way up. So it must NOT be true right? Its seems like the roots team up and transport food together to the man stalk, and then the stalk decides where to distribute the food. And of course if theres not enough food for the whole plant, it automatically uses reserves from the bottom (most unproductive) leaves on the plant like it does for any mobile element. Thats gotta be it right?

What do you think?

 

[Neo 420]

OK, I've given 2 applications of Imid, and it's been a week or so, and I'm still finding some flyers in my blue sticky traps, and under some pots.

I will apply the Imid another time (I'm still in veg).

I also have Azamax, and Spinosad, and some Takedown Pyrethrins that I think can be used as a soil drench.

What would be best, Imid, then an Azamax soil drench a few days later, or Imid and follow up with ???

I wouldn't apply another round if IMID. Give it some time. I would follow up with a non systemic insecticidal spray. Give the IMID some time to work its magic.

 

[RetroGrow]

What do you think?

I think you need to kill them, ASAP.

 

[spleebale]

If you are going to use Azadirachtin (Azamax, Azatrol etc) I would recommend using it with imid applications also; I think they are compatible and it should do a double-whammy. Azadirachtin is probably a good secondary control as long as you use it regularly (doing two or three applications about 5-7 days apart is far better than doing 4 or more applications spread apart by weeks.

There were no pics of root mites on the Ask Ed article, unfortunately (but he talks about them).

As to your conjecture about roots related to shoots - there is definitively something to that, but it does not seem to be as simple as "damage a root and lose the shoot" because you can prune off 3/4 of a plants root mass and not lose any shoots. However, there does seem to be a relationship between acute root damage/local root imbalances/deficiencies and certain issues with foliage (that also seem somewhat local). My current working hypotheses are the following:

!)Consistent damage at a root restricts its ability to uptake nutrients, which are mostly channeled to a particular leaf; that leaf does not get enough and becomes deficient

2)Pathogens move into the root through the lesion/infection and move upward acropetally to the leaf sites where they do damage.

3)Pathogens land on the leaf surface, take over in the absence of strong plant immunity and reproduce there, robbing the leaf of nitrogen and sugars and spreading to other leaves.

4)The plant responds out of stress and lack of available nutrients/water and progressively "gives up" leaves to attack, putting its energy instead into new growth and reproduction instead.


I found this really good article about gardening issues in general which is worth looking into:

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/Florex/BP%20ID%20Nut%20Def.pdf

"Iron deficiency (upper foliage interveinal chlorosis) can occur if root rot pathogens infect the root system. Foliar diseases, particularly fungal diseases can cause chlorosis of leaf tissue, a direct reflection of harvesting nitrogen from plant cells."

Smurfin': it is too early to say until sometime next week, but it seems like you may be heading down the bad-road of trying to resuscitate plants that are on their way out. Killing all the aphids does not generally result in immediate bounce-back unless they have only been minorly affected (slowing down but not stopping/drooping/losing tons of leaves)... When you get to the later stages of infection and infestation it takes tons of time and money and effort just to get them back to "OK" again - they almost never become fantastic, will doubtfully harvest over 2/3 what you would expect (more likely 1/3 or even 1/5th of regular) and it is all a pain in the ass.

Just to re-iterate: Starting over with fresh babies is a WHOLE NEW WORLD. You apply the imid when they are young and they take off and the only thing they ever know of root aphids is a few final bites of self-inflicted death along the way. You don't notice it, the plant doesn't notice it, but all the aphids that find the plants die. You start using a secondary control method, even though you are not sure that you need to... then, mid-way through bloom, you look on your ladies with fondness and look back on the nightmare like it was all something you made up, wondering how you could have ever been so panicked in the first place... Ahhhh, the peace of mind of a happy grow. - Nothing like it.

-WB

 

[spleebale]

Ants and Aphids

Ants and Aphids

I meant to include this info in the VERY FIRST post and have continually forgotten about it for months:

ANTS FARM APHIDS (root aphids too!)

If you have ants, particularly if you see them marching into the root zone: they are farming aphids for sure.

Make sure you get rid of the ants or you will NOT GET RID OF THE APHIDS. (Ants will often store collections of aphid eggs to transport to plants in the area where they can farm them! - Brilliant little buggers!)

When I had them I did not have to do much to get rid of them; they left just before I found out that I even had aphids after I "attacked" the plant they were farming on. I wanted to see what their deal was, so I shook and beat at the sides of the grow container, sending ants into a frenzy. Apparently I scared them enough to sound the major-threat alarm, because they fled this way and that, carrying things (Almost certainly aphids/eggs). After the activity died down there were no more ants coming into that pot; I watered heavily and they never came back. That plant made a swift recovery from the leaf issues it was suffering from and quickly out-grew the other mama who probably had aphids as well.
I figure the ants took all the aphids from the mama plant I "attacked" with them. Of course this may not work for everyone, just sharing my experience.

-WB

 

[Token Treasures]

I had used tobacco juice on my plants and that also got rid of the aphids and ants.

 

[Bud Bundy]

Hi,

I have treated root aphids using Imid and believe that I have killed my plants! I went with a high recommended initial dosage, then flushed, and planned on giving a smaller dose with my nutrients a couple of days later.

I don't want to paste the same information in multiple places, so I'll give a link to the thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3572781&posted=1#post3572781

I don't want what happened to me to happen to others.

Thank you for any advice you can offer!

-Bud Bundy

 

[Rainman]

Just a heads up guys. I have a friend who got them from his soil purchased at Home depot. We checked an unopenned bag of soil he had stored in the garage and it was crawling with the buggers!!!

 

[wally150]

update: using bayer complete insect killer i fed at 30ml/gal then waited 4 days and did it again with 45ml/gal. no sign of the buggers since then. followed up a few weeks later with nematodes and will be reapplying every few weeks through flowering.

best news: just pulled my male plants and dumped out the pots and checked out the root system very carefully with a magnifying glass. NO SIGNS OF ANY BUGS WHATSOEVER! the females i have left are looking happy and healthy

thank you so much for this thread!

 

[smokesalot420]

UPDATE!!

Ok, I have been using the Bayer (Fruit and veggie version) and FOR ME the effectiveness of this product lasts for about 35-45 days. I had a secondary outbreak when I first started using this product, about 45 days after my initial application at 10 ml per gallon. For this reason I have changed my timing of applications and have not seen any bugs since.

I treat new clones with the Bayer Imid while they are in my quarantine area and again right before the flip (which is usually 14-21 days depending on strain). I do secondary Azamax/Azatrol soil drenches a week after the Imid treatment and apply tanglefoot to the rims of my pots and trays. I also do a sulfur burn 2nd week of flower and again 4th week of flower. I use a pyrethrum bomb during week 3 of flower and if I think they need it I do another at week 5 (and I take most strains at least 70 days).

With this new approach I have seen no bugs except the occasional fungus gnat on my sticky traps and man do they plants look happy! This makes me wonder how long I have been fighting these bugs....

Oh yeah, I also fluromite my new clones while in veg.

 

[Bud Bundy]

update: using bayer complete insect killer i fed at 30ml/gal then waited 4 days and did it again with 45ml/gal. no sign of the buggers since then. followed up a few weeks later with nematodes and will be reapplying every few weeks through flowering.

best news: just pulled my male plants and dumped out the pots and checked out the root system very carefully with a magnifying glass. NO SIGNS OF ANY BUGS WHATSOEVER! the females i have left are looking happy and healthy

thank you so much for this thread!

Just curious, to make sure you're growing in soil, correct?

That dosage with Bayer Complete Insect Killer destroyed my hydroponic plants in my Waterfarm recirculating setup.

 

[wally150]

Just curious, to make sure you're growing in soil, correct?

That dosage with Bayer Complete Insect Killer destroyed my hydroponic plants in my Waterfarm recirculating setup.

soil grower. fox farm ocean forest soil.

sorry to hear about your plants. mine barely showed any signs of stress or anything. i did get 4/6 males so maybe i did stress em. not sure though.

 

[orangejuice]

i just found some tiny white guys crawling around my pots the other day. that explains the mag def. that seemed impossible to cure... i have no idea how these guys got in... in a brand new location with all new equipment, dried coco bricks (could they really survive in that?) and grown from seed. was very careful to never go in the room after bringing outside before a shower and new clothes.

anyway i vacuumed my entire house, bought some bayer citrus imid (applied at 75ml/gal since it's so much weaker than tree and shrub or complete versions and i'm running coco not hydro) Dipped the entire pot in all the way to the stem, kept it dunked for about 30 secs then moved the plants to the other side of the house temporarily .

pytherin bombed the room after the plants were moved out. went in the room and vacuumed good after the bomb had time to dissipate. then took all the stuff out of the room (pretty much everything but the lights/ducting) and made up some hot bleach water in another tub and bleached down everything!

just moved the plants back into the now (hopefully) clean room and i'm going to turn off ventilation and toss a no pest strip in there when lights go out... hoping for total genocide of these bastards! will update in a few weeks if it worked!

i also had some clones that just got transplanted into solo cups that i took out when i took out the other plants, mixed up a 10ml/gal solution of imid for them and drenched them, hopefully they will stay clean as well.

 

[puff adder]

Imid works. You might follow up with a soil drench of Azamax in a week to catch any stragglers.

I also had fungus gnats. Even using the dunks I still had a healthy population of fungus gnats. The Azamaz soil drench was what finally broke their life cycle.

 

[Token Treasures]

Does the imid kill the micro life as well as the insects? On the Bayer bottle it says not to use it on fruit trees, My question is how long does it take for the imid to break down?

 

[spleebale]

As far as I know imid does not particularly kill microorganisms (it activates receptors in the insect nervous system), however there is much diversity in microorganisms and I do not know that it doesn't kill SOME microorganisms. I am also wary of the solvent in most low-concentration imid products that the imid comes dissolved in - it is certainly possible this substance may suffocate or otherwise adversely affect microorganisms. This may be the biggest argument in terms of using Merit or one of the concentrated imid products.

As to how long it stays around: A goddamn long time (in soil or other substrate) unless it is *flushed out*. In the LIVING, metabolizing, drinking, growing plant it breaks down somewhat quickly (3-6 day half-life) but in the soil the half-life is anywhere from 100-200 days, I believe. MAKE SURE TO FLUSH IMID OUT OF THE SUBSTRATE WELL after use!!!

 

[HossCartwright]

Shit. After reading 19 pages I now think I have root aphids. But I need to make sure it isn't intern syndrome after reading about all this crap. I haven't been able to find any bugs in my soil, but I did find some strange lookin bugs INSIDE my lights laying dead on the lens. They are small, brown, football shaped with wings. They appear to have a hard shell. And, I have had this phantom mag def start in week 3 that required me to finish early several times now. Several of my plants look exactly like the ban kush plants that foconoco posted on like page 2 or 3. It starts with slight curling of the tips around week 3 flower, then yellowing, then brown/black spots by week 4 and dried/cracked/twisted leaves by week 5. By week 6 flower it looks like my plants are flushed and finished but I haven't flushed them.

But I can't find anything crawling around in my soil. The dead adults I found in the lights look nothing like fungus gnats other than the fact that they have wings. Mine are football shaped, brown and hard shelled.

Somebody please advise, this is freaking me out. YES I'm using FFOF!