advanced nutrients heavy harvest

[Lazyman]

BTW - you think that the heavy metals in Down-To-Earth's BioFish is extreme? Seriously?

Have you looked at the junk from FatBoy Mike at AN? Seriously?

Thanks for sharing regardless.

CC

I think thats what Mullray was getting at with this portion of his data, stating that chem ferts are held to a higher standard and are lower in heavy metals.

OK - so let's now look at a couple of those nasty petrochemical fertilizers. We'll use P containing fertilizers to compare it to guano which is used as a source of P in organics.

Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP 0- 52- 34)

Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥51.3 %
K2O ≥34.0%
Water insoluble, max 0.1 %
Moisture, max 0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%

Monoammonium Phosphate (MAP 12- 61- 0)

Main content, min 99.0 %
P2O5 ≥61.0 %
N, ≥12.0%
Water insoluble, ≤0.1 %
Moisture, ≤0.2%
PH 4.4-4.8
As ≤0.0025%
Heavy metal (Pb) ≤0.0003%
Hg None
Cd ≤0.0002% (2mg/kg or 2ppm/kg)
Cr ≤0.0002%
F ≤0.002%
CL ≤0.01%


I haven't had time to go through the certification site to find them all, but what AN products are really bad?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Lazyman

Here's my problem with the entire grow store industry.

Thank you for mentioning Mono-Potassium Phosphate (0-52-34) and yeah, I'm quoting from Hydro-Gardens.com as well - LOL

So let's say that I buy 50# of this product from Hydro-Gardens.com, okay? And I asked another poster what the application rate would be and TooHighMH or (something like that) who used to work for AN - so if you don't like him or feel that he's talking out of his ass, let's set that aside for the purpose of this exchange, okay?

I asked him specifically what the application rate would be and answer was something like 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. of this chemical per gallon of water. Fair enough.

Let's do some math. 1/2 tsp = 12 batches per ounce. 50# would give you about 9,600 gallons of some magical/mysterious elixir, right?

The current price for Mono-Potassium Phosphate (0-52-34) is about $70.00 for 50# for single bags. Multiple bag price is less than $55.00

Would you like to tell me what the current price for a 'grow store cure' for a product that is limited to Mono-Potassium Phosphate as an ingredient costs per gallon?

Would you admit that someone is screwing the pooch on these products?

Just a thought as usual.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

You had mentioned chicken shit in a couple posts,do you know anything about turkey manure?

NinoBrown420

I apologize for not limiting my comments about 'poultry manure' to 'chicken manure'

The following is JUST MY OPINION and nothing else:

It's my opinion on the 'why' chicken manure is as high in heavy metal content has to do with how the products marketed as 'poultry' fertilizers (both manure as well as feather meal per se) are sourced.

Chicken meat is an exploding industry especially in the fast-food industry. The level of demand exceeds current production capacities and the demand continues to grow for the myth that eating fried chicken 'bits' are somehow healthier than eating a Big Mac for example.

The poultry industry (chicken specifically) is a whore's business. Chickens have been hybridized to the point where producers like Tyson and the rest can pin-point on how much 'feed' it takes to grow a chick to the 4.x lbs. required for market. Literally - it's down to the friggin' gram on the required amount of feed.

Feed? You mean like actual grain? Nah - feed like in this chemicaql and that steroid to maximize growth rates and 'bulk' which requires chemicals. Chemicals that consumers ingest and absorb.

Back to the chickens (cluck-cluck), they eat these chemicals and absorb them into their flesh. And it appears in their manure. Just take a look at the reports of the levels of drugs (legal and otherwise) that are now found in our drinking water sources.

Chickens may well be the most doctored food source other than commercial beef. The amount of chemicals, steroids, hormones, etc. that are pumped into a Tyson chicken is beyond belief.

And their 'poop' is proof positive.

Having said that screed it would also be my opinion that a poultry manure product that was/is sourced from turkeys could be a vialbe product in that there is far, far less demand for turkey meat vs. chicken meat.

Find the right grower/producer and buy what they may have to offer. Buying locally and supporting family farms and sustainable food producers seems to be a worthy goal for many here in Oregon.

Hopefully it's the same where you live. If it's not then get committed to change that.

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"- old Chinese proverb

Peace

CC

 

[Lazyman]

Lazyman

Here's my problem with the entire grow store industry.

Thank you for mentioning Mono-Potassium Phosphate (0-52-34) and yeah, I'm quoting from Hydro-Gardens.com as well - LOL

So let's say that I buy 50# of this product from Hydro-Gardens.com, okay? And I asked another poster what the application rate would be and TooHighMH or (something like that) who used to work for AN - so if you don't like him or feel that he's talking out of his ass, let's set that aside for the purpose of this exchange, okay?

I asked him specifically what the application rate would be and answer was something like 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. of this chemical per gallon of water. Fair enough.

Let's do some math. 1/2 tsp = 12 batches per ounce. 50# would give you about 9,600 gallons of some magical/mysterious elixir, right?

The current price for Mono-Potassium Phosphate (0-52-34) is about $70.00 for 50# for single bags. Multiple bag price is less than $55.00

Would you like to tell me what the current price for a 'grow store cure' for a product that is limited to Mono-Potassium Phosphate as an ingredient costs per gallon?

Would you admit that someone is screwing the pooch on these products?

Just a thought as usual.

CC

Toohigh and I see eye to eye on pretty much everything so far, never knew he worked for AN but it doesn't surprise me.

Oh yeah hydro nutes are a huge scam, no question at all. Known for years, but in living up to my namesake a bit:

For me it's easier and more practical to spend some cash on nutes at the hydro shop and get familiar with a fairly stable product I can use for years. Lazy and pricey all in one, I know I know. But for buying nutes I get better prices on bigger purchases, last order was at 5% over cost and they take cash. Bit of back scratching on both sides, but yeah they make some money off me.

Someday when I have the room and time I'll absolutely give mixing my own nutes a shot. Do you feel like it would be any kind of security risk to buy bulk quantities of chemicals and fertilizers like that? Or am I being paranoid?

You've mentioned costs a couple times, is EWC or other organic fertilizers cheaper than $70 for 9600 gallons? Just curious.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

You've mentioned costs a couple times, is EWC or other organic fertilizers cheaper than $70 for 9600 gallons? Just curious.

Lazyman

Not a fair question probably. I have 4 worm bins each of which contains about 40,000 worms in each one producing a fair volume of worm castings.

What I took exception to your comments about the levels of metals in both EWC as well as thermal composts is that I believe you're talking about commercial EWCs packed for distribution across the USA.

That is NOT what I mean by the terms 'EWC' or 'compost' - organic farmers (again not necessarily folks who grow cannabis) generally produce their own humus sources. It's part of the cycle - plant, grow, harvest, compost, plant, grow, harvest, compost, etc.

I can guarantee you that the EWC that I produce contains none of the levels of metals that you correctly/accurately mentioned. I also know personally the folks who produce the thermal compost that I use. It comes from an organic dairy in Oregon. The owner is a member of the largest distributor of organic produce at the wholesale level - over $60 million a year and that's in only 2 states. Washington and Oregon

Back to your question about EWC vs Mono-Potassium Phosphate (0-52-34) - a question I can't answer since I don't pay for my EWC.

But let's take kelp meal @ $61.00 for 50# - okay? I'm sure that that you well know the benefits of using some form of kelp - meal or a soluble extract like ASL or (*cough*cough*) MaxiCrop for sake of discussion.

To brew 5 gallons of kelp meal tea requires 2 oz. of kelp meal to hit the same 'PPM' of the off-the-shelf seaweed extract products. To answer your question about costs I'd say that kelp meal fares pretty well against the costs of Mono-Potassium Phosphate.

Then again I'm sure you wouldn't make the argument that somehow a phosphate is a better source for potassium (i.e. 'K') than kelp extractions are you?

CC

 

[Lazyman]

Hehe, I gotcha on the earthworms, and may I say bravo? I am a chem guy (to a fault) but I have the utmost respect for those that do organics well. I know it takes a lot more work, time and patience, but the rewards are great. I'm just terribly impatient.

No, I wouldn't start that particular debate myself with an opponent of your knowledge, but I'm sure there are those that would! Isn't sea kelp one of those plants that has heavy metals in it too though? I've seen them mentioned for so many products recently it's getting to be a bit of a jumble.

 

[SecretGardener]

...once you get out of the grow store paradigm you'll find that bat guano isn't all that expensive.

It sickens me, I went to my local hydro store the other day out of boredom and I saw 5 gallon buckets for $7 EACH !!!! The same EXACT buckets and I mean same exact (same warning graphic of a baby drowning etc) for $2 !! I won't even go there out of boredom, they are such a rip off and they assume we're stupid?

I used to be all about supporting your local hydro shop but I realize all that supports is the black market in the area. If you aren't selling then you're going to waste your hard earned money !! sorry, /endrant

 

[Guest 88950]

...So much for the 'haters' eh? Load up your medicine with Cadmium, Cobalt, Lead, Zinc, Nickel and then brag about the yield? Seriously?

Are there no standards at all with the chemical crowd?

Friggin' amazing.

CC

heavy metals = heavy harvest

 

[Stonercool]

Huh, another board that's dissolved into who likes AN and who doesn't. Who thinks they're too expensive, who doesn't.

Let's stick to the science here - what DOES work and what DOES not. That's what I want to hear.

Of course, maybe some things just work for some people and not for others. I know that some of my friends have used nutes that I've used and we've had completely different results.

Well, some of my friends are pretty dumb though. LOL

Eh, HH sounds like a cool idea, not sure if I need to use it. Something for someone with more time on their hands than I have right now.

 

[HappynPeaceful]

Hats off to the AN trolls

Hats off to the AN trolls

Ah, always nice to get on a board and listen to the AN whiners. You can spot them by how they haven't ever tried AN, but they dismiss it immediately because they're too cheap to pay for high quality nutes.

Or they just want to talk to hear themselves talk. Who cares whether you like them or not? Don't come to this board. You're not helping SmokeyTheBear out at all.

Hey man, I found this Heavy Harvest feeding schedule at:

http://www.progressive-growth.com/hydroponic_recipe-advanced_nutrients_heavy_harvest.php

I've never used HH before, I admit to it. So I don't know if it works well or not. But if you have the nutes around, might as well use them. Sounds like you didn't have to pay for them, which is always a good thing, no matter how big your budget might be.

I would encourage you, unless you want to be cranky like the other dudes on this board, to give it a fair shot. I mean, why the heck not?

Good luck on this one - always fun to try something new, huh?

Wow why didn't you just post a link to an AN ad video or something? Does AN really pay people to troll boards and post in these threads? Wait a minute... is this Big Mike?

Bravo on the little piece you wrote about never using HH though. Very tricky.

 

[Microbeman]

Lazy, You make a lot of valid points but only if we look at organic growing from a conventional/chemical growing perspective. This is something Coot has alluded to, in that organic farmers do not approach the organic or natural growing paradigm the same way as do most pot growers. My way of seeing, defining or clarifying this is by pointing out the typical words used by pot growers and used by you in this thread; 'organic nutes'. One can never grow using truly organic or natural techniques until getting beyond the erroneous mindset that one is feeding plants. In truly organic/nature farming/growing one is culturing a healthy soil from which plants derive nutrients in an interactive communicative synergistic cycle. One is not (for the most part) pouring on nutrients which are uptaken by the plant. This takes place in a number of ways, predominantly through predation of bacteria/archaea but all natural ways include directions given by the plant. So feeding the plant organic nutes as one feeds a plant chemical (ionic) nutes is a gross mis-statement and one perpetuated by many of the 'organic' bottled fertilizer manufacturers/sellers. You are so correct about the inability of many folks to see beyond the organic label on the bottled nutes but this mostly based on the stuck mindset of trying to apply the conventional methods to organic ones.

Once I broke out of this mindset, I found growing naturally to be much more simplistic and less expensive than conventional. There may be some extra work at the onset but once your soil becomes as alive as your plants it is a pleasure. No more; checking EC/TDS, adjusting pH, mixing chemicals, fighting the fungal diseases brought on by high phosphorous chems; less incidence of mites, thrips and aphids due to a high population of predators; and a healthy end product which one can feel proud of and be glad to share.

As for your posted data, as you have mentioned citations and foundational information is required to support any credence. For example the data on the EWC could be from a batch of worms utilized in a toxic clean up. I know this is exxagerated but you get my point.

 

[xmobotx]

Let's stick to the science here - what DOES work and what DOES not. That's what I want to hear.

i guess i will take the troll bait here - lol

this is a pretty short thread (if you were to bother w/ reading it) and i didn't see much in the way of opinion regarding AN=cool or not

what i did see was some dissemination of the science as to which popular amendments contained what levels of heavy metals (as the entire AN product line seems unusually high)

OIW all of the products "work" but exactly what are we bringing to the table using certain OTC remedies?

@ lazyman

CC's point about local sourcing of home-brewed amendments mirrors my own in the organic think tank thread

like i said, organics done right is free

oh, and wow - those AN heavy metals are off the charts too aren't they?

 

[dev0n]

Microbeman makes an excellent point. It's lexically irritating, but we have to get used to the fact that there is a massive difference between an "organically" produced thing and "organic" gardening.

Also I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that selenium and arsenic are not metals, although zinc, cobalt and copper are. Se, however, kicks off synthesis of cellulose and lignification of stem tissue and increases the concentration of ascorbic acid. Zn is required for chlorophyll production, respiration, and N metabolism. Co contributes to max occupation of leaf surface by chloroplasts and pigments. Cu activates enzymes and is absolutely required for photosynthesis and respiration.

I'll take this further to point out that the presence of large amounts of these and other metals in nutrients designed to be used over a long period of time does not necessarily mean, when you smoke the dried bud of plants that ate them, that you'll be imbibing these metals in dangerous, or even remotely harmful, amounts.

Yes, AN (and a lot of other additive and feed manufacturers) charge a lot of money. Yes, some of their nutrient ratios are questionable. But I think when nutrient manufacturers warn that you must never reuse, but rather safely discard, soil after harvest, they're telling us everything we need to know.

I thought the whole point of this Organic Soil grower's forum is that we've weighed the options and work vs. reward and chose to feed the soil and use it forever instead of chalking the critically important substrate up to one more thing we lose through attrition.

 

[xmobotx]

good point devon

many of these "heavy metals" are in fact secondary nutes (micro-nutrients=the term i m used to)

still, these are present in high levels in many products. there is something to the chem-side argument that everything does come from the planet and is present naturally in some form or another. but, we all know that we don't want high levels of certain substances.

 

[toohighmf]

CC & Lazy: I have jumped in this organics forum about 5x now. My ears must of been burning! I'm not here to debate at all. just to learn. However, How did MKP even come up in the organics forum? Why is this in organics and not outdoor growing?

This is becoming another "organic think tank" thread. We have that already. Let's talk about HH. No offense, but that stuff is CRAP. Urea pellets and a fancy label. this can be found in AG stores/nursuries for $25 a 50# bag.

outdoors nothing beats organics. keep them piss pellets out. Use the money back guarantee to return that shit.. (I mean piss). I don't live in the triangle anymore, and I don't like my chances of being ripped, so I keep inside where I now get off on trying to build hydro grows that look like something aboard the space station, or maybe a Epcot display. the more complicated, the better, as long as once its up and running, I don't have to do to much. Some day when I buy my own island, I will build an ecosystem and run a large scale raft hydroponics system to self sustain. Until then, its inside and salts til the end!
please don't let my old job @ AN have any bearing on this conversation. It's not something I'm proud of lol!

 

[xmobotx]

ha ha speaking of the think tank thrd and building your own eco-system on your island

did you see the model i suggested for "outdoor hydro?"

 

[toohighmf]

pretty sure I did, but as the whole conversation started as an argument, I was too busy defending the op. lol. Outdoors go crazy with it. just not in my 2 car garage that takes up 20% of my property.

 

[xmobotx]

yeah, my "2 car garage" is a 30x40 pole building shop w/ 2 garage doors big enough for semi tractors - it probably takes about 5% of our property

yes, i am doing some permaculture but it's very early

 

[toohighmf]

see if I had a 1200sq' area, I would be really bad..

permaculture might just drive me insane. I hate bugs. another reason I went indoors and hydro. bugs bug! every organic soil grow was so full of bugs. I'm not going to say pests arent impossible to penetrate a CEA room, but (as I knock on wood) I haven't had any issues w critters for a minute. 2 years ago I had root aphids. 1st critter in probably 20 grows.. I worked in a shop, I hung w a lot of growers, who knows where they came from. these little bastards are worse than the borg, and My friends were telling me to sterilize all my gear, burn my clothes and move! I ended up fully eradicating them w SM-90 in 1 full grow. that and using diatomaceous earth as carpet freshener... So there's a totally "organic" solution to these issues. predatory insects will run a train on some root aphids too. in fact, their easier to eradicate root aphids w nematodes than mites. but I hate bugs! I know tropical places are full of em.. might have to rethink my plans!

 

[dev0n]

I hate bugs. another reason I went indoors and hydro. bugs bug! every organic soil grow was so full of bugs.

I feel that pain. Since we implemented the ScanMask/ladybugs/mantis trifecta we've had much better luck outdoors than in past years. It helps that in our area the beneficial bugs we let loose don't really have anywhere more attractive to go.