The Organic Think Tank

[cannaboy]

I know if I wanted to grow peppers, strawberries, tomatoes, or cucumbers on a commercial basis, it would definitely be in hydro as the stated 400% yield increases are more than a little appealing. What would you do?[/QUOTE]

For people that have been growing produce for decades does anyone have a good thing that you can say to somebody to intice them into doing a hydro grow besides the above post as we have refrences in this thread to conflict with the last submission as they need to purchase stuff they don't and havent needed and will put the cost and time out of production to set up,,


If I was to say go!!! How long would it take you to get 100 of each of these plants lazy ( clone or seedlings) peppers, strawberries, tomatoes & cucumbers on a commercial basis, and how much is the cost roughly just for hear say,, I am in the process of setting up a market garden with baker creek seed co seeds and some other heirlooms I wouldn't try that way and couldn't cost it but I will do it if you say and convince me to go for it,, I have all the gear so no expences but you must include the expences as people have to buy the stuff to do it,,100 strawberry plants will be cheeper grown in the grownd because of the cost of pots and the runners will need pots, in the earth this is a natural occorance and is free and isn't labour intensive,, peppers how and what is the best hydro means of coping with these,, cucumbers grow with no water in the dark so your point is<<< And also what types of veg grow best in hydro Potatoes, horseraddish??? Where does a pineapple grow?

It's all about the maximum potential of the plant, and I'm not planning on being satisfied with something that doesn't reach 100% potential. From what all the research I can find shows, that potential is not exploited fully with organic nutrients.

And this means your gullable and got sold the immage


That Tom hill grow is that only 30g a plant thats piss poor!!!

 

[toohighmf]

30 grams off 6" plants... flat garden... Someone told me to rock my bubbas like that and I shoulda listened. Cannaboy, you think you can pull 2 kilos with a single 1000w, start to finish in like 70-80 days????? you can't just measure yield by gpw. you need to add KwH to the equation. I could grow 4# too in an 8x8 space if I vegged 8-12 plants 2 months. those 2 months I could pull down another crop and I am much more power efficient, while your vegging.. you get 3 crops a year down. I can pull down 5-6. I have to deal w ridiculous plant numbers, but 50 20-30g plants per 1k is still 2+... done in 75 days start to finish. 65 if I have a veg room and am cloned up n ready.

 

[Lazyman]

30g per plant is not piss poor if you have 64 of them and got that under a single 1KW bulb, that's a lot of bud by anyone's standards.

Cannaboy, you can click on the following links for information you will do your best to ignore:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC3-4RDC02Y-1&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F10%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1335693686&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=04061682f6c9d5abf226d5b131bfe6e7

The objective of this study was to compare potato seed tuber production of cvs. Monalisa and Agata growing in beds, pots or hydroponics, with either single or staggered harvests. All culture systems were established in plastic sheeting-covered greenhouses protected with an anti-aphid network. The beds and 3 L pots were filled with Plantmax® substrate and placed in suspended beds. The hydroponic system utilized NFT (Nutrient film technique) and 4 m × 15 cm × 7 cm PVC tubes with a 4% slope and the fertilizers were a commercial formula. Each experiment was 4 treatments in factorial Scheme 2 × 2 with 2 cultivars (Monalisa and Agata) and 2 harvest methods (single and staggered). All three experiments were carried out in randomized design with 6 replicates and 7 plants per replicate.

The hydroponics system presents some advantages: as harvest easiness, mineral nutrition control of plants, efficient use of water besides reducing the costs with pesticide. This system allows many harvest during the cycles culture allowing to maximize potato seed tubers harvest.

The hydropony system was better statistically for tubers/plant number in single and staggered harvest. In all systems, the non-destructive harvest provided larger amount of tubers/plant, being the length and biomass these tubers smaller than in single harvest.

There were significant interaction between culture system and harvest methods for the number of tubers per plant, tuber length and tuber fresh weights. The number of tubers per plant in hydroponics was 147% higher than the bed and pot systems for a single harvest. Even, tuber production from a staggered harvest in hydroponics was 286% greater than in the bed and pot systems for Monalisa and Agata cvs. Tuber lengths from potatoes growing in beds were 17% longer than those growing in pots or hydroponics from a single harvest. It was observed that tuber fresh weights in bed system, from a single harvest, were 51% larger than pot and hydroponic systems. Numbers of sprouts per tuber ranged from 2.55 to 3.04 for the 3 culture systems and 2 harvest methods. The sprouts length ranged 0.51–0.92 for Monalisa and Agata cultivar growing in bed, pots and hydropony system.

Lettuce:

Hydroponic and greenhouse yields are commonly 5 times the
field yield for a two crop per year field harvest and 10 times the
field yield for a one crop per year field harvest. In one case
the Whittaker Corporation's Agri-Systems division in Somis, CA. has
achieved an absolutely astounding 100 times the field yield of
Bibb lettuce in their 2.5 acre facility [57, p.147-151]. The
normal field yield is about 30,000 heads per acre, but they grow
an amazing 3.2 million heads per acre per year [57, p.150].

http://www.androidpubs.com/Chap02.htm

Tomatoes:

From http://www.growgreattomatoes.com/grow-hydroponic-tomatoes/

The Benefits of Growing Hydroponic Tomatoes

Hydroponics has been proven to have several advantages over soil gardening. The growth rate of hydroponic tomatoes is 30-50 percent faster than a soil plant, grown under the same conditions and the yield is also greater. The nutrients in a hydroponic system are mixed with the water and sent directly to the root system so the tomato plant. Those nutrients are being delivered to the plant several times per day. A hydroponic tomato requires very little energy to find and break down food so the plant can use this saved energy to grow faster and to produce more fruit. Hydroponic tomatoes have fewer problems with bug infestations, and disease and are generally healthy plants.
Hydroponic gardening uses considerably less water than soil gardening due to the reuse of the nutrient solution. Hydroponics generally require few if any pesticides.

BTW, this article says you're wrong about cucumbers growing in the dark:


http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/greenhouse/hydroponics/cucumber.html

When full sunlight is expected almost every day--as from mid-spring through late fall--more plants can be accommodated than they can under winters low light. With good
sunlight, each plant is allotted about 5 square feet space.

And so does this: http://www.betterbuyhydroponics.com/index.php?pr=Hydroponic_Cucumbers


Growing Conditions:

Cucumbers like somewhat higher temperatures than tomatoes. Their minimum night temperatures should be about 68 F and during the day maximum temperatures of 75 to 78 F are ideal. Relative humidity should be maintained about 75%. Light levels of 5500 lux (510 foot candles) for 14 to 16 hours per day are adequate. Carbon dioxide enrichment from 800 to 1000 ppm will help the plants compensate for the lower than natural sunlight conditions when using artificial lights.


More on cucumbers:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/hydroponics-in-commercial-food-production.html

Yields

Commercial hydroponics systems have proved more productive than conventional systems of agriculture not only in the laboratory but even in actual practice. Most commercial hydroponics greenhouse facilities are built large to take advantage of economies of scale; typically these cover areas more than 10 acres while smaller ones measure around two acres. In the research greenhouse, yields with hydroponics techniques have averaged around 20 to 25% higher than in conventional soil cultivation. In actual commercial practice, however, over a number of years, the yield of hydroponically grown tomatoes can be more than double that of soil based systems due to the reduced turnover time between crops, better nutrition and crop management. Additionally commercial hydroponics growing techniques are also less demanding of chemicals for root zone sterilization and control of pests, weeds etc.

The dramatic increase in yields with hydroponics is best illustrated if we consider the actual production figures of soil grown and hydroponically grown produce. Field grown tomatoes average yields ranging between 40,000 to 60, 000 pounds per acre; on the other hand top growing hydroponics facilities in the US and Canada report average yields of more than 650,000 pounds of tomatoes per acre. Additionally, given the fact that only 10 years ago top hydroponics producers were producing around 400,000 pounds per acre, the increase in yields with improvements in growing practices has been truly phenomenal. Similar production figures can be quoted for other agricultural produce like cucumbers with 10,000 pounds per acre for field production and 200,000 per acre for hydroponic greenhouse yields. Hydroponics lettuce and pepper yields too average around four times the corresponding yields of agricultural production.


What else would you like to see? Are all of these studies made up?

 

[mullray]

A question. If I don't eat meat, will that lying, thieving, energy hog of a fuck al gore give his ill begotten millions back? He sure looks like he eats steak 3 times a day.

If he ain't giving the money back, fuck it, I'm eating meat.

I got no problem grinding up all them fish and feeding 'em to my plants cuz they sure love it. I'll use your share of the fish too if that's ok with you.

Go for your life. Kill more fish and Al Gore will probably keel over from a heart attack
Lazyman "Most species of Mycorrhizae cannot withstand a P concentration in excess of 32ppm" try 10ppm optimum P. Experts tend to agree on this number and VAM (AM, AMF) formulas based on extensive research typically have about 10ppm elemental phosphorous. VAM are P fixers and because of this and ATP mycorrhizae won't colonize in high P environments (e.g. hydroponics or well balanced organic grows).

"I believe that its possible to do the same, or even less harm to the environment using salt ferts. Our ferts are more pure and applied in lower doses. In greenhouses, salt ferts outyield organics, produce foods free of heavy metals, use substantially less water, and make much more efficient use of space."

Right on! There are heavy metals in salt ferts however - they just tend to be there at far lower levels than in organic ferts which are randomly concocted by too often inexperienced growers without an iota of chemistry and without the appropriate background research into the components being used. Other than this growing with shit poses other problems. Anyone for salmonella and other bacteria that poses a threat to human health?


Let me also pose that hydroponics and not organics will save the planet. We require intensive growing methods to feed a growing population. Organic produce is overpriced dribble with no added nutritional value and strictly for the white middle class who can afford to buy into the multi billion dollar scam. Other than this hydroponics when handled correctly poses no threat to the environment. Water/nutes can be recycled and reused and there is no leaching into the environment.

If any organic diehards want to start talking science and put up the numbers let's go.


MR

 

[toohighmf]

I love this guy! I swear, you learn more about hydro in the organics debate (think tank) than in the fertilizer or hydro forums! I'ma spend more time in here!

 

[mullray]

I know where my beef comes from, and it ain't these large corp. cattle farms, and I don't give two shits about the comfort of a cow, veal scalopini anyone.

I also catch my own fish, grocery store fish=second class in the kitchen.

On the ammonia thing, I stand corrected, did some reading this morning, and I didn't realise that methane was the main gas used, I have no prob with this, you can't stop methane.

Maybe your right, the environment needs to suffer to feed the masses, but I still like doing things the way nature intended in the garden, to each his own.

Why don't you guys go ahead and get back to science of organic/chem growing, this hippie bullshit is even making me sick.

The environment doesn't need to suffer or we can minimize the damage by growing hydroponically. That's the point I'm trying to make. Hydoponics is the way of the future. I'm thinking of writing a book called how the greens killed the planet because if we keep letting these ill informed ignorant quasi religious nuts dictate rubbish we are in a lot of shit (pardon the pun).

BTW - someone mentioned they only grow with compost. Here's a challenge then. Take your compost to a lab and test it for heavy metals my friend. You'll find its' loaded in them as are most composts. Funny how the organic billionaires fail to mention what science has known since the seventies. Eat/smoke organic - lead, arsenic and cadmium are great for you!

 

[Lazyman]

Cannaboy, how old are you? Give me a hint at least.

 

[Danks2005]

Damn, you guys are good

 

[grapeman]

I know if I wanted to grow peppers, strawberries, tomatoes, or cucumbers on a commercial basis, it would definitely be in hydro as the stated 400% yield increases are more than a little appealing. What would you do?

Just saying, if you grew peppers, strawberries etc on a commercial basis you would be in and out of business in one grow, and back to your closet mj grow. I don't really care if you do it in hydro, soil or whatever.

Unless you think you can just declare yourself a 'commercial" grower and then proceed to make a living at it. You can't. It's a bit more complicated then that.

 

[Lazyman]

No I mean commercial as in, go to the bank with a good business plan, get a loan for a few million dollars and do a couple dozen greenhouses on acres type grow. The margins are so slim you have to make it up in volume, and grow what sells best. I would spend years doing research before undertaking commercial food cropping, just as I spent 6 months researching before starting my first grow of MJ.

I also don't do closet mj grows though, never have!

 

[RNDZL]

OK new day new page new start

Lets start at a place that makes sense for all, being this is a think tank page, other than using traditional commercial and non commercial farming tech for ideas lets leave it out of the equation

we are a think tank, we are resources far faster to mobilize, using other industries as a barometer will only stifle ideology

As a marijuana cultivator, we are all enjoying a relative measure of success

If were are to grow in and direction, regardless of who we are, we should have a way to measure personal results

what all the other gardens in the world are doing matters little if im happy with mine BUT am I being all I can be? and how can I tell?

thats the first benchmark folks. How can you test if these ideas are indeed plausible and how do you integrate them into your garden without a degradation in performance but a way to measure a differential in performance when you grow and all variables but one or two controls are different

It can very much be measured to the dollar and cents but before I try to establish how I look at my grow and decide if a new method is beneficial what does every one else use as a measure to tell if they are getting best growth and how to tell if new amendment techniques or combinations thereof is providing benefits

 

[TheBudFather]

I know if I wanted to grow peppers, strawberries, tomatoes, or cucumbers on a commercial basis, it would definitely be in hydro as the stated 400% yield increases are more than a little appealing. What would you do?

I posted this a few days ago in this thread.... 100% Organic monsters... he holds 9 Guinness World Record Veggies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXGqJbFZzCo&playnext_from=TL&videos=ZH6mlGESJpY

This is what I would be doing...!

 

[Spl1fftast1ck]

All strains have a maximum THC percentage programmed into their genes, but it's up to us to extract every last mg of that potential with our growing methods. In other words, you can always do worse than the plants potential, but not better.

I believe proper lighting, chemistry, and environment play a role in maximizing potential in a plant. The effects of things like UV-B lighting appear to play a significant role in converting cannabinoids into THC, but then again, some guys seem to prefer a more CBN or CBD-heavy weed. I know I do! But I still need to do some side-by-side experiments with UV-B once I have a room full of the same cuts. It's about the 4th thing on my list though, but by the end of the year I should have some data.

I hear yah, understand your response and agree completely, I think I may have phrased my thought wrong. Lemme get some sources together, do some research, and I'll come back to this. If anyone can figure it out, it will be the collective minds at work here.

---Spliff

 

[cannaboy]

30 grams off 6" plants... flat garden... Someone told me to rock my bubbas like that and I shoulda listened. Cannaboy, you think you can pull 2 kilos with a single 1000w, start to finish in like 70-80 days????? you can't just measure yield by gpw. you need to add KwH to the equation. I could grow 4# too in an 8x8 space if I vegged 8-12 plants 2 months. those 2 months I could pull down another crop and I am much more power efficient, while your vegging.. you get 3 crops a year down. I can pull down 5-6. I have to deal w ridiculous plant numbers, but 50 20-30g plants per 1k is still 2+... done in 75 days start to finish. 65 if I have a veg room and am cloned up n ready.

who uses a single SHIT 1000 Dickheads' use 4 250's

And if u use a flip flop with 2 duo lumateks This will set a new presedence for cultivation for GPKWH calculations with a Lumatek Duo Ballast (WHEN THEY RELEASE THE THINGS IN THE UK) they will KICK ASS!!!

you can have 2400w going 24 hrs Nice!! flip flpoped into 12/12 working all the time 2 weeks appart LOL....

Good for Breeders and multi strain runners!!!! Or greedy bastards!!

Also if you had 2 you can run 2 back to back grows with 3 lamps per room with a light from each flip in a mother tent.. cool shit!! 2 weeks apart..


Toohighmf you can diy 1 of these with (ALLENBRADLEYSWITCHES) or by 1 and diy it to fit 4 250's and get better results.. Have a go thats how we have see it done..

 

[xmobotx]

this being a think tank and all -and for the sake of conjecture:

lets say someone does some "earth sculpting"

as permaculture, you scoop out some lower area for a "pond/reservoir" -then, build up higher area (like "mini mountains") adjacent to your "pond/reservoir"

now, i like the idea of placing rocks w/ fungi into the higher regions of the "mini mountain" features, than maybe a layer w/ some charcoal and ash amended (like a fire belt) below these highest regions then, fertilize and amend growing regions (basically right adjacent to the 'pond/res')

a pump is placed in the 'pond/res' which gurgles out at the top of the 'mini mountain'

the system would be expanded by utilizing more pumps to more 'mini mountains'

i would eschew pond liner and such as might impede the subterranean circulation of the system - but, the system (pond & mount.) could be built on top of a barrier keeping loss from leaching to a min if necessary

is this a hydro system?

does it really seem like a rube goldberg contraption?

 

[toohighmf]

who uses a single SHIT 1000 Dickheads' use 4 250's

And if u use a flip flop with 2 duo lumateks This will set a new presedence for cultivation for GPKWH calculations with a Lumatek Duo Ballast (WHEN THEY RELEASE THE THINGS IN THE UK) they will KICK ASS!!!

you can have 2400w going 24 hrs Nice!! flip flpoped into 12/12 working all the time 2 weeks appart LOL....

Good for Breeders and multi strain runners!!!! Or greedy bastards!!

Also if you had 2 you can run 2 back to back grows with 3 lamps per room with a light from each flip in a mother tent.. cool shit!! 2 weeks apart..


Toohighmf you can diy 1 of these with (ALLENBRADLEYSWITCHES) or by 1 and diy it to fit 4 250's and get better results.. Have a go thats how we have see it done..

So.. What should I do cannaBOY? I should drop all my gear and run out & replace 4 1kw ballasts n bulbs for 16 250 ballasts n 64 bulbs? you sure you don't smoke rocks? weren't dropped on your head when you born? Drink too much? did you eat paint chips as a kid?
I run a series of flips. i power 16 hoods w 4 ballasts. 2 12 hour photo periods. I think I'm doing just fine GPKwH. you think you might be listening to the wrong kids at school? Does you mother know your on an adult site?

Ever hear of Mel Thomas? he's a UK legend who was one of the largest commercial growers in the UK. He published a book after getting out of jail. a really good book.. You should read it. like 10x. by the way my family is the largest Distributor of aerospace electronics in the territory. I can get all the Allen Bradley, Struthers Dunn, Magnacraft, Hartman, Eaton, Cutler Hammer, PCD, OMRON, TI, Microswitch, etc. right off the shelf... this thread is almost too advanced for me, I still can't figure out for the life of me while your here? If your here for knowledge, do us all a favor.. STFU and read. don't post. You're cloggin this thread with CRAP. Thanks.

 

[cannaboy]

A 6 is better than a 1000 because of the lpw it has 10more lpw than a 1000 that is 7% more than a 1000.. Lumens emmited are only part of the equasion lumens recived by the plant are much more important lumens recived are measured in watts-per-squqre-foot or foot candels one foot candel equals the the ammount of light that falls on one square foot of surface located 1 foot away from 1 candel. lamp intencity doubles every 6 inches closer to the plant get it yet.....


a 1000w with 140 lpw@ 4 feet= 10.000 lumens
a 600w with 150 lpw@ 3 feet= 10.000 lumens

4x4=16square feet,1000 watts/16 square feet = 62watts per square foot
100 watts/m2=100watts per cm2

3x3=9square feet,600 watts/9=66 watts per square foot 600w/m2=6watts per cm2

the relationship between light emitted from a point source (bulb) and the distance are defined by the inverse square law . This law affirms that the intensity of light changes in inverse proportion of the square of the distance

I=L/D2

Intencity= light output /distance2

HiD's are bright growers who properly manage intence brightness harvest more weed per watt. Intensity is the magnitude of light energy per unit of area It is greatest nearer the bulb and diminishes rapidly as it moves away..
for example plants 2 foot away from a lamp recive one-fourth the light by plants 1 foot away a HID that emits 100,000 lumens produces a partly 25,000 lumens 2 feet away (60cm) a 1000 watt that emits 100,000 inital lumens yields 11,111 lumens three feet away (90 cm) couple this megar sum with a poorly designed reflector and beautiful buds suffer big time.. the closer a plant is to the light source the more PAR watts it recives and the better it grows, as long as it is not so close that heat from lamp burns the foliage. with a high quality reflector made from non conductive matireals heat escapes faster and there is no dancing with the devil...

under perfect conditions plants that revived less PAR matured slowly and produced less

for exanple a 1000 watt that produces 100,000 lumens at source produces the following.. the goal is to give plants 10,000 lumens if you use 3 600w you get a total 270.000 lumens at a cost of $0.18 per hour(cost per kwh = $0.10)
If you use 2 1000 watt you get 280.000 lumens at a cost of $0.20 per hour
use the examples above to see how the 1000 watt offers more watts per square foot amd m2 to achive the desired output of 10.000 lumens, however the bulb also produces a hot spot in the center of the illuminated area. Plants tend to grow into hot spots and shade other plants although a 400w has a lower lumen per watt conversion, when used properly they are more efficient than higher wattage bulbs. One 1000 watt halide produces 115.000 initial lumens and a 400 watt 40.000 this means that each 400watt needs to be lowered to produce a similar ammount of light it also means several different light point sources sustain more even intence light distrubution.

A 1000 watt with a "hotspot" must be placed 36 inches (90 cm) from plants
600s can go as close as 18cm with a hood that reflects light and heat evenly,, when placed closer a 600 produces as much light a a 1000. The propper reflective hood over the lamp and reflective walls walls double the grow area growers that use the most effective hoods harvest up to twice as mush as those who don't....

One option is to remove the hoods as with no hood lamp burns cooler and emits only direct light.. or a light moover but these still make 600's the best. If you do your grams per watt will calculate to better efficiancy. Cheaper buds is always good..
A time comes in a growers life when he realizes he was doing things wrong before and it is hard to admit to yourself but you will never look back. The transition of learning to mastering is a long windey road. Taking the step from playing plants to paying plant is what its all about its against the law for most. If something is worth doing its worth doing well.


This isn't organic natural growing but will help get more dope from your electricity,,

 

[grapeman]

No I mean commercial as in, go to the bank with a good business plan, get a loan for a few million dollars and do a couple dozen greenhouses on acres type grow. The margins are so slim you have to make it up in volume, and grow what sells best. I would spend years doing research before undertaking commercial food cropping, just as I spent 6 months researching before starting my first grow of MJ.

I also don't do closet mj grows though, never have!

Unfortunately, it's more about the distribution then it is the growing anymore. Just like Verizon and ATT are becoming dumb pipes for VOIP calls and the pc makers are subservient to the operations system (microsoft & apple OS's), the grower is subject to the distributor, unless you distribute your own. The product you grow is just a commodity.

 

[toohighmf]

cannaboy, while I agree that 600's are more efficient and produce similar output, you didn't mention 600's. you said:

"who uses a single SHIT 1000 Dickheads' use 4 250's"

we have gone off topic, because I fed you. my apologies.

 

[cannaboy]

Sorry Toohighmf,,
Respect lazy for the info on the vegis dude pm me some more dude so I don't clog this thread, How do people feel about the media wastage/rockwool/perlite/ect and has anybody got a global report on this.. I know some people in Aus that are clearing algi and making composte from it ,, that's well cool ,, does anyone know of anyother sources of pollution that can benefit our community..