Is Nevilles Haze still the strongest haze?

[FtWendy]

S. American genetics

S. American genetics

I get the feeling S. Am genetics were the initial building blocks for Haze because that's what was available to the masses...and indeed, it was one of these extraordinary batches of S.Am gold that caught the Haze brothers attention way back in the day. Further, I imagine the success and experience garnished from the first two seasons allowed the Haze bros to spend a few bucks on Asian imports, sort through them for donors, and begin hybridization - just like they did with the mex/colum.

The trouble today is that our tight borders make finding the needle in a haystack very difficult, which is frustrating... since I find myself craving the old schwagg gigglebush, but have to sort through Dutch seeds to find what was garbage to me just ten years ago. Life's funny like that.

 

[yoss33]

The strongest Haze is that 1 plant from all 50.
A basic truth about sativas. Still valid with the modern inbred "strains".

 

[corky1968]

This May Break The Tension

This May Break The Tension

I wish Neville would come out of hiding and tell us his side of
the story. At least for the Haze part anyway. As for if Neville's Haze
the strongest Haze? I have never grown it, but it is a hybrid of Haze
afterall so it can't really be called a pure Haze in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong I will end up trying it out for myself in
the future.

As for the Flying Dutchman's "Original Haze" I have never grown it.
But I believe that it was selected for the green "Thai" side of the
Haze spectrum. So even though it's most likely still pure haze it's
only a part of the variation that the original had.
Funny, how they now call it "Original Haze", LOL.

Which is why I'm drawn the Oldtimer's. At least it has many
colorations that the TFD kind doesn't. All I know I'm very
happy to be growing OT1 Hazes right now.

Maybe if this Skunkman can get off his
High Horse he can let us know how it was, not.

Look everyone, I found The Skunkman on You Tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaizuryPu0

Hope you laughed half as much as I did.
Could this be where he's been hiding all this time?
Spending all his seed money away?

I know I'll get sprayed for this one sooner or later.

Time to buy a case of Tomato Juice. LOL

 

[FtWendy]

TFD ohaze and it's progeny

TFD ohaze and it's progeny

Flying Dutchman's Original Haze has indeed been selected toward the SE Asian side of the sativa spectrum, however you can clearly see all components of the haze breeding regimen if you grow out a sizable lot of beans. I know because I'm doing it presently (beans purchased in Holland in 11/2009 sprouted 1/2010) and have seen individuals that represent the Thai, Columbian, and Mexi parents throughout my sorting (dont know about the Indian/Kerala's). They're still there - just hidden between the Asians...and further, I'm not certain this predilection towards the Asian-side is intentional. Just my thoughts.

Offhand, can someone refresh me on what the pollen source was for OThaze?

 

[osoloco69]

I believe that Tom Hill's Haze is the strongest sativa high. I have noticed a lot of his have a tendency to show a lot of the colombian traits so I would assume that they were from the Haze bros lines that were more colombian dominant. The Haze bros had many Hazes and they were all different. They had a lot of sativas(more than 10 pure lines), a bunch of indicas(3 of which were from the Kashmir valley), and quite a few crosses. Most of the pure sativas were called haze as were some of the hybrids. To add to the confusion the Haze bros would make crosses and name them Haze followed by a #...Haze#1, Haze#2, Haze#3 etc. This would explain why Tom sees some rare broad leaf traits- the fact that people would argue the validity of such a specimen is ridiculous.

 

[scrubdog]

Hi, I am 55 years old and been growing 30 years with 70% of that being pure landrace sativas, any "haze" I can get my hands on and haze or sativa hybrids. I grew out Haze varieties as they became available from seedbanks.... and there was a LOT of them in the old days... Haze #1 thru Haze #19 at least plus all the seedbank variations.

Firstly, Haze is nowhere near the most potent sativas I have grown. Certain landrace sativas (especially some Indonesian, Vietnam and Thai) leave Haze for dead... BUT.... as others have said... you have to grow 50 plants to find the killer one. The exception is probably some Indonesian/Sumatran landrace where every plant is ridiculously potent but tastes really, really harsh.

In my neck of the woods the most consistently potent strain was always Thai Stick (in it's various forms over 10 years) and Haze was always considered a wannabe .... more an experiment in trying to breed a sativa that will finish indoors.

Secondly, the "Haze" offered by seedbanks has changed dramatically over the years. The original seeds used to grow enormous plants that were virtually unmanageable and you could easily see the phenotypes of giant Columbian and Thai trees. These days many of the so called Haze grows into spindly weak insipid looking plants.... probably through inbreeding.

Thirdly, I breed plants and one of the worst possible things you can do as a breeder is to inbreed a line too far. Eventually you get 75% hermies, sterility and mutations, plus total loss of vigour and disease resistance. Loss of genetic diversity is a dead end street. So to advertise that a line has "been inbred since blah, blah..." as though it is a good thing.... makes no sense at all. The number one original selling point of Haze genetics was the enormous genetic diversity supposedly in the Haze line.

If Haze really is so wonderful (I've yet to experience this) then the obvious thing to do is to simply recreate the breeding by crossing hand picked sativas from Thailand, India and Columbia. This is what I've been doing for years... and am still doing...

The fact remains that no matter what Haze type line I create, or no matter what super duper Dutch strain I've grown.... none has ever been as potent as some little scrubby landrace sativa that has popped up every now and then over the years.

All the OT Haze and Tom Hill Haze plants that I have seen in photos look exactly like inbred original landrace pure Thai lines.

I'm not saying anybody is wrong. I'm not saying Haze isn't the strongest. I'm just stating my own experiences to date. I still grow Hazes as they become available.... just in case there is a killer Haze out there that I haven't discovered yet...

scrubdog

 

[osoloco69]

Hi, I am 55 years old and been growing 30 years with 70% of that being pure landrace sativas, any "haze" I can get my hands on and haze or sativa hybrids. I grew out Haze varieties as they became available from seedbanks.... and there was a LOT of them in the old days... Haze #1 thru Haze #19 at least plus all the seedbank variations.

Firstly, Haze is nowhere near the most potent sativas I have grown. Certain landrace sativas (especially some Indonesian, Vietnam and Thai) leave Haze for dead... BUT.... as others have said... you have to grow 50 plants to find the killer one. The exception is probably some Indonesian/Sumatran landrace where every plant is ridiculously potent but tastes really, really harsh.

In my neck of the woods the most consistently potent strain was always Thai Stick (in it's various forms over 10 years) and Haze was always considered a wannabe .... more an experiment in trying to breed a sativa that will finish indoors.

Secondly, the "Haze" offered by seedbanks has changed dramatically over the years. The original seeds used to grow enormous plants that were virtually unmanageable and you could easily see the phenotypes of giant Columbian and Thai trees. These days many of the so called Haze grows into spindly weak insipid looking plants.... probably through inbreeding.

Thirdly, I breed plants and one of the worst possible things you can do as a breeder is to inbreed a line too far. Eventually you get 75% hermies, sterility and mutations, plus total loss of vigour and disease resistance. Loss of genetic diversity is a dead end street. So to advertise that a line has "been inbred since blah, blah..." as though it is a good thing.... makes no sense at all. The number one original selling point of Haze genetics was the enormous genetic diversity supposedly in the Haze line.

If Haze really is so wonderful (I've yet to experience this) then the obvious thing to do is to simply recreate the breeding by crossing hand picked sativas from Thailand, India and Columbia. This is what I've been doing for years... and am still doing...

The fact remains that no matter what Haze type line I create, or no matter what super duper Dutch strain I've grown.... none has ever been as potent as some little scrubby landrace sativa that has popped up every now and then over the years.

All the OT Haze and Tom Hill Haze plants that I have seen in photos look exactly like inbred original landrace pure Thai lines.

I'm not saying anybody is wrong. I'm not saying Haze isn't the strongest. I'm just stating my own experiences to date. I still grow Hazes as they become available.... just in case there is a killer Haze out there that I haven't discovered yet...

scrubdog

What does this have to do with the question at hand- Is Nevilles Haze still the strongest Haze?

 

[yoss33]

Thanks for sharing your observations, scrubdog. And welcome to the forum
I too consider Thai among the strongest highs, if not the strongest. And, of course, it makes all the indoor inbred stuff boring. But it doesn't like lamps and ceilings, so it's not a real choice to the kind of people that ask if Neville's is "still the strongest".
Heh, it's the kind of advice that goes like "Here's THE strongest haze that, unfortunately, you'll never be able to grow" A teaser...

 

[DocLeaf]

No << Nevilles Haze crosses are better than NH IME

Amnesia and Arjan's Ultra Haze #2 were much better..

Hope this helps

 

[s13sr20det]

Hi, I am 55 years old and been growing 30 years with 70% of that being pure landrace sativas, any "haze" I can get my hands on and haze or sativa hybrids. I grew out Haze varieties as they became available from seedbanks.... and there was a LOT of them in the old days... Haze #1 thru Haze #19 at least plus all the seedbank variations.

Firstly, Haze is nowhere near the most potent sativas I have grown. Certain landrace sativas (especially some Indonesian, Vietnam and Thai) leave Haze for dead... BUT.... as others have said... you have to grow 50 plants to find the killer one. The exception is probably some Indonesian/Sumatran landrace where every plant is ridiculously potent but tastes really, really harsh.

In my neck of the woods the most consistently potent strain was always Thai Stick (in it's various forms over 10 years) and Haze was always considered a wannabe .... more an experiment in trying to breed a sativa that will finish indoors.

Secondly, the "Haze" offered by seedbanks has changed dramatically over the years. The original seeds used to grow enormous plants that were virtually unmanageable and you could easily see the phenotypes of giant Columbian and Thai trees. These days many of the so called Haze grows into spindly weak insipid looking plants.... probably through inbreeding.

Thirdly, I breed plants and one of the worst possible things you can do as a breeder is to inbreed a line too far. Eventually you get 75% hermies, sterility and mutations, plus total loss of vigour and disease resistance. Loss of genetic diversity is a dead end street. So to advertise that a line has "been inbred since blah, blah..." as though it is a good thing.... makes no sense at all. The number one original selling point of Haze genetics was the enormous genetic diversity supposedly in the Haze line.

If Haze really is so wonderful (I've yet to experience this) then the obvious thing to do is to simply recreate the breeding by crossing hand picked sativas from Thailand, India and Columbia. This is what I've been doing for years... and am still doing...

The fact remains that no matter what Haze type line I create, or no matter what super duper Dutch strain I've grown.... none has ever been as potent as some little scrubby landrace sativa that has popped up every now and then over the years.

All the OT Haze and Tom Hill Haze plants that I have seen in photos look exactly like inbred original landrace pure Thai lines.

I'm not saying anybody is wrong. I'm not saying Haze isn't the strongest. I'm just stating my own experiences to date. I still grow Hazes as they become available.... just in case there is a killer Haze out there that I haven't discovered yet...

scrubdog

great info!
welcome to icmag. i hope you stick around

 

[Trillion]

No << Nevilles Haze crosses are better than NH IME

Amnesia and Arjan's Ultra Haze #2 were much better..

Hope this helps

You seem to have a lot of opinions about Neville's Haze, but have you actually grown the original offering from MNS?

Do you still think it's not a real Haze but SSH and Jack Herer are, even though they're all closely related? Anyone who has tried a good sample of both amnesia and Nev's will have an easy time of choosing the better one, Nev's everytime

 

[ojd]

amnesia or arjan ultra haze beter than nevils haze
that is lauhgable
ive sampled so many amnesia's
even winning samples from breeders at cups and ive not had a amnesia sample that was beter or even close to the real nevils haze
to me the amnesia is a very indica leaning haze
nevills is far from that at all
and arjan ultra hay
forget about that

for a real haze i would sugest
mr nice nevils haze
the flying dutchman original haze(not sure how pure this is these days but will def have some proper haze in it
tom hills original haze
sams ohaze x sk1(im growing them now 3 of them and they look 100% haze to me)

and for best haze hybrids
go with
mr nice
ssh
mango haze
nevil/mango
afghan haze

sensi seeds nl5haze(might be alot diferent from previous years, im growing them now and will report back on how good they are from years back

happy haze hunting

 

[TopShelf]

Amnesia Haze is my favorite Haze so far, might of been the pheno but it was scary strong.

 

[High Country]

I don't know, I'm trying to find out about NL#5 X Haze and Jack Flash#5, Sensi Seeds, feminized.

I have always grown indica dominant strains and am very interested in these long flowering sativas.

I can recall the happy highs of asian sativas close to the Vietnam War.

But for some reason I turned to indica and now want a change.

 

[Dalaihempy]

No << Nevilles Haze crosses are better than NH IME

Amnesia and Arjan's Ultra Haze #2 were much better..

Hope this helps

Doc do you work for GHS ? or you been doing lunch with arjan to lol.

 

[DocLeaf]

Nice post scrubdog

Haze was never a stable variety,, and they made at least 2-3 lines over 3 seasons. So it is always possible that different breeders have since selected seeds or clones from slightly different siblings,, each of which will display slightly different Haze traits. Since that's how plant breeding works...

Doc do you work for GHS ? or you been doing lunch with arjan to lol.

No. They couldn't pay me enough.. lol

AUH #2 was OK,, better than the other varieties released, better than the Neville's Haze anyway.

Anyhow,,

The only variety we grew from seed that actually had real 'Haze' in it was 'Haze #19 x Skunk' (both Wernard and Sam have confirmed the lineage on this one)... plus we grew 1000s of them and you get a feel for these things after a while... esp. when some of them grow into Haze dom. plants

... otherwise Neville's Haze, Amnesia, AUH#1-2, and Super Silver Haze

SSH

.. all these resemble Thai plants that have been made manageable in lineage via the use of Northern Lights .. IMO ,, all nice in their own right ,, but not a typical Haze

ojd : Neville's Haze wasn't all that when we smoked it and friends grew it,, in the UK and Amsterdam.. there was/is plenty better strains called "Haze" available. Like Jack Herer,, the 'Haze' lineage in which is debated.

Hope this helps

 

[indifferent]

Jeez Doc, watcha been smokin this morning?

Jack Herer, SSH and Amnesia (which is a NL dominant SSH) are not in the same league as a good Neville's Haze.

It has been said before and needs to be repeated - none of the GHS versions of Neville's SSH etc should be considered as good representations of those lines as they are not the originals, not made with the original breeding plants, god knows what they really are, but real, original NH and SSH they are not.

Doc, there is no such thing as a typical Haze, Haze is a polyhybrid and contains genes from several sources. The Hazes bred by Neville and Shanti are different to the Hazes from other companies. The Nev/Shanti Hazes are all based on three plants - Hazes A, B and C.

Haze A - male, Colombian pheno
Haze B - female, dunno what it is, it's only used in La Nina
Haze C - male, Thai pheno

The A male is the one responsible for the spice/incense in Nev/Shanti Haze lines, the C male is responsible for the sweet/fruit in Nev/Shanti Haze lines. Because there are only the A and C Haze plants in most of the Nev/Shanti Haze lines, it is pretty easy to spot the influence from either in any given pheno from those hybrid lines. ojd is the expert in that field, he has grown all of em at some point pretty much.

The Haze A male is now lost, but the B female and C male survive, it is the C male that Shanti has been using to create his new Haze hybrids of late. When Shanti and then Neville left GHS within a few months of each other in 98/99, they did not leave behind the Haze breeding plants, so whatever the GHS Haze lines are, they are not made with the original parental plants.

Haze 19 x Skunk being the only variety with 'real' Haze in it? Yeah, right, nobody is able to define what a real Haze is these days, because nobody really knows where Haze came from, what it contained and who bred it. The old Haze Bros story is almost certainly not true and the Nev story about 1969 Haze Bros seeds is almost certainly not true either.

What is possible, is to trace the lineage of the Nev/Shanti Hazes since 1987. Here is a brief summary of that lineage:

1985-7 - Nev Travels to the US on gene collecting trips, on his return he tells a tale of having bought a seed collection from an old hippy in NYC, it is from this seed collection that he took his supposed '1969 Haze Bros Haze' seeds. It is during these trips that he acquires the G13 cutting and the NL seedlines.

1988 - Nev crosses his two Haze males to his best female cuttings - G13, NL5, Hashplant and Skunk

1989 - Nev grows out thousands of the Haze hybrids, he finds the NL5 x Haze to be the best and focuses on that one. Out of 1,000 NL5 x Haze A plants are selected several keepers that go on to form the basis of almost all future Nev/Shanti Haze hybrids. There are also some cuttings in Holland that are selections from those test grows - A5 which is NL5 x Haze A, Mango Haze, another NL5 x Haze A and C5 which is NL5 x Haze C. The mothers of SSH, Nev's Haze and Shanti's Mango Haze are all selections from the NL5 x Haze A cross.

1990 - the Haze hybrids appear in The Seedbank catalogue for the first time.

1991 - Nev is bust in Australia, he sells The Seedbank to Ben Dronkers, owner of Sensi Seeds, the new company is called 'The Sensi Seedbank'.

The NL5 x Haze hybrid was so good, Nev put it on the front cover of the 1990 catalogue:

Here is a pic of a dried NL5 x Haze bud from the 1990 The Seedbank catalogue:

That pic shows a bud that myself and many others would love to get our hands on, there has never been a more powerful and psychdelic hybrid imho, many many folks have written about how good that old NL5 x Haze was.

G13 x Haze was only sold for one year and then withdrawn, it was inferior to the other Haze crosses.

After Nev's bust he managed to flee back to Holland where he went back to working at the Cannabis Castle as the breeder for The Sensi Seedbank and during this time he created things like Silver Haze and Jack Herer. In 1995 he bought a half share in the second GHS coffeeshop in the RLD and retired from full-time breeding. 1995 was also the year GHS first started selling seeds, these were bred in-house by Shanti or bought in from Ingemar. Between 95 and 98 Nev and Shanti collaborated to create SSH, Nev's Haze, La Nina and a few others.

SSH won the HTCC in 1998, Shanti left GHS right after the cup. Neville left a few months later in early 1999.

After Shanti leaves GHS, the lineage of the GHS Hazes is dubious at best and open to speculation. In 2006 GHS enters Arjan's Haze #1 into the HTCC, it is laughable, tastes like hay and lacks potency, shares nothing in common with the classic Nev/Shanti Haze work. I remember thanking Gypsy for dumping a pile of packs of seeds on my head (I was sat right below the balcony where Gypsy stood and threw countless packs of Skunk #1 and Durban x Skunk onto the crowd below and they literally rained onto me!) and Dutchgrown agreed with me that the GHS Haze entry was 'hay'.

BTW, while the Haze A male is dead, there exists a male that is mostly Haze A - the G13Haze male as used by Soma, DNA and now ojd. It differs a bit in taste from the Haze A as it has an accrid foulness the Haze A lacked, this is from the G13, but it is a very Haze dominant plant and has mostly Haze A traits.

Shanti is doing some sterling work with the surviving Haze C male at the moment and has released a whole range of new Haze hybrids.

GHS meanwhile have switched to all fem seeds and the real lineages of their Haze seeds remains, to this day, a mystery.

 

[Dalaihempy]

You guys do relies that at the time of shanti and Neville being part of the GHS company Neville alone produced the ssh seeds and the Neville haze seeds and only Neville him self had the parent plants so in short arjan never had or ever will have the parent plants that made ether haze lines meaning no haze breeding parents so what can we add to that simple they don't have them and there using f1s seed stock .

 

[indifferent]

Yup, I think I mentioned twice that GHS don't have the original breeding plants and haven't had since 98/99 when the Aussies walked out.

It's not just that they used seedstock to replace em, for a few years they were buying in seeds from anyone who had a kilo of em to sell so god knows what was in GHS seed packs in the years 99-2005, yes it was mostly garbage, but what the genes were is anybody's guess.

 

[DocLeaf]

Jeez Doc, watcha been smokin this morning?

I n I was smoking something heavy this morning,, Sassy Frassy or Hy-pro Amnesia off the breeder pack clone. We used to have that catalogue also indif.. gave it to a buddy ,, cause he had all the rest of them and it made a collection for him

It has been said before and needs to be repeated - none of the GHS versions of Neville's SSH etc should be considered as good representations of those lines as they are not the originals, not made with the original breeding plants, god knows what they really are, but real, original NH and SSH they are not.

The SSH flowers above (and below) where from MNS plants buddy... like we said already,, VERY nice weed,, but it's not the Haze we remember growing dude...

The LGA grew the majority of them,, between them,, from all the breeders and retailers involved... tried and tested.. GHSco SSH reg. (not fem.) was the winner / the one the ganja cats liked most! MNS line early flowering SSH came 2nd,, esp. for glashouse and outdoor

Doc, there is no such thing as a typical Haze,

That's what we said "Haze was never a stable variety,, and they made at least 2-3 lines over 3 seasons"...

The Haze in Haze #19 x Skunk plants had a specific taste and high,, Haze dom in 25% of the plants. This is the Haze we remember as Haze.

The "haze" in these other strains,, we've either smoked and/or grown before,, none of which compare to Haze #19 or HGF fast Haze. The all grow,, smoke,, and give a high more like the Thai plants we grew as kids,, only stronger and with bigger flowers

Btw,, we didnt come here to burst any bubbles,, if its grows well smoke it

Peace out all