a lil rep for everyone in the thread...and a big mahalo to OP for a great thread and Greyskull for all your help bro...the bugs came out the bottom of the pots in thier death throes as i was watering...plants dont seem to have skipped a beat either...got one pot left to water....hopefully all the bugs left are making themselves comfy in her while i wait for it to dry out, then introduce them to the merit!
Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???
- Thread starter spleebale
- Start date
By the way: the one thing that was NOT said about imid (though I remember it being asked) was:
Merit recommends .5 mL Merit 75 WP per gallon of water - Merit 75 is 75% imid, which is about 51X stronger than Bayer T&S, which is 1.47%.
So the amount that Bayer recommends (5 mL/gal), being 10X more (product) than what Merit calls for, is still 5X weaker. So when you increase the dosage of Bayer T&S up to 25 mL/gal (or ~50 mL/gal Bayer C.I.K.) - as was recommended by bali_man and *someone* else since - you suddenly achieve the same imid levels as recommended by Merit and achieve the same (or similar) results. Voila!
Oh, and RG: I noticed before I saw your post. Sorry about that... No idea how I could have started thinking it was "HG"... *bubble, bubble* ... ckhawwww, ckhhhhaawwwwww.... Yeah.... no... idea.
Merit recommends .5 mL Merit 75 WP per gallon of water - Merit 75 is 75% imid, which is about 51X stronger than Bayer T&S, which is 1.47%.
So the amount that Bayer recommends (5 mL/gal), being 10X more (product) than what Merit calls for, is still 5X weaker. So when you increase the dosage of Bayer T&S up to 25 mL/gal (or ~50 mL/gal Bayer C.I.K.) - as was recommended by bali_man and *someone* else since - you suddenly achieve the same imid levels as recommended by Merit and achieve the same (or similar) results. Voila!
Oh, and RG: I noticed before I saw your post. Sorry about that... No idea how I could have started thinking it was "HG"... *bubble, bubble* ... ckhawwww, ckhhhhaawwwwww.... Yeah.... no... idea.
Sorry, I didn't mean to chase people off/shut people up - just to minimize random chatter and back-and-forths about the same thing.
How are people doing that also suffer from leaf necrosis issues? Who has been able to eliminate them? (Just by getting rid of RAs? Did you change anything else?) Who has tried fungicides or other methods to kill what seems to be necrosis-causing leaf-fungus?
Update: the closet system that did well last time is doing very well again. I think it is less exposed to spores and that minimizing RA presence has allowed plants to generally fight off infection. There was one plant (Which was originally the largest/healthiest) that started showing bad signs of leaf discoloration and necrosis and then others followed. I applied Bayer C.I.K. and then did sprays (some with Bud Factor X, others with Foliar BLOOM - which I believe has changed names now - the yellow-bottle immune booster). The problems on the one that had the worst leaf necrosis ceased to progress (though it looked its worst the day after the spray) and the problems that were showing up in others ceased as well. (I have also been much more vigilantly removing unhealthy leaves and those that start to show bad signs). The plant that was the worst has seemed to do almost a complete recovery and other "signs" in the closet are minimal and do not seem to be progressing. This is the FIRST time I have not only halted progression but gotten a plant to bounce-back and continue, seemingly healthy. *good sign, fingers crossed*
Meanwhile, my other system - where I had done a series of sprays before recognizing the possibility that I was spreading fungus - is pretty much hosed - teeny buds half way through bloom, most fan-leaves necrotic and tons of leaf-loss. I almost scrapped them except that I do not have anything to immediately take their place. Although at first I thought what had happened was acute damage from the combination of things I sprayed them with or perhaps the sprays lowered their immunity/defenses and made them susceptible, I now think it was MOSTLY that I was spreading spores and then letting plants sit in the dark while wet overnight without moving air across them to dry them off quickly. This hypothesis is also supported by the fact that I moved a healthier plant into that areas after the sprays that "harmed" all the plants and soon that healthy plant had contracted the same problems (where the others it was growing up with in the area I took it from are all fine).
So all signs are pointing to fungal infection (I don't know why more people don't talk about this scenario, as I am thinking that most random necrotic leaves on blooming plants are most likely a fungal infection). I will probably always spray plants with some sort of biological fungicide early in veg from now on (I am thinking Serenade). I will probably use a systemic anti-fungal early on in any hydro systems I do from now on (I am thinking Exel or a Propiconazole product) and will probably add some sort of anti-fungal to just about all sprays I do from now on - I am thinking Aqua Shield for now - it is what I have used on my clones to prevent damping off and any other fungus and works like a charm so I don't see why not, until I find something better or cheaper.
I have a tendency to jump-the-gun and over-speculate, but I am thinking this simple regimen will probably have pretty dramatic results for anyone suffering from fungal issues (probably more people than recognize it)
How are people doing that also suffer from leaf necrosis issues? Who has been able to eliminate them? (Just by getting rid of RAs? Did you change anything else?) Who has tried fungicides or other methods to kill what seems to be necrosis-causing leaf-fungus?
Update: the closet system that did well last time is doing very well again. I think it is less exposed to spores and that minimizing RA presence has allowed plants to generally fight off infection. There was one plant (Which was originally the largest/healthiest) that started showing bad signs of leaf discoloration and necrosis and then others followed. I applied Bayer C.I.K. and then did sprays (some with Bud Factor X, others with Foliar BLOOM - which I believe has changed names now - the yellow-bottle immune booster). The problems on the one that had the worst leaf necrosis ceased to progress (though it looked its worst the day after the spray) and the problems that were showing up in others ceased as well. (I have also been much more vigilantly removing unhealthy leaves and those that start to show bad signs). The plant that was the worst has seemed to do almost a complete recovery and other "signs" in the closet are minimal and do not seem to be progressing. This is the FIRST time I have not only halted progression but gotten a plant to bounce-back and continue, seemingly healthy. *good sign, fingers crossed*
Meanwhile, my other system - where I had done a series of sprays before recognizing the possibility that I was spreading fungus - is pretty much hosed - teeny buds half way through bloom, most fan-leaves necrotic and tons of leaf-loss. I almost scrapped them except that I do not have anything to immediately take their place. Although at first I thought what had happened was acute damage from the combination of things I sprayed them with or perhaps the sprays lowered their immunity/defenses and made them susceptible, I now think it was MOSTLY that I was spreading spores and then letting plants sit in the dark while wet overnight without moving air across them to dry them off quickly. This hypothesis is also supported by the fact that I moved a healthier plant into that areas after the sprays that "harmed" all the plants and soon that healthy plant had contracted the same problems (where the others it was growing up with in the area I took it from are all fine).
So all signs are pointing to fungal infection (I don't know why more people don't talk about this scenario, as I am thinking that most random necrotic leaves on blooming plants are most likely a fungal infection). I will probably always spray plants with some sort of biological fungicide early in veg from now on (I am thinking Serenade). I will probably use a systemic anti-fungal early on in any hydro systems I do from now on (I am thinking Exel or a Propiconazole product) and will probably add some sort of anti-fungal to just about all sprays I do from now on - I am thinking Aqua Shield for now - it is what I have used on my clones to prevent damping off and any other fungus and works like a charm so I don't see why not, until I find something better or cheaper.
I have a tendency to jump-the-gun and over-speculate, but I am thinking this simple regimen will probably have pretty dramatic results for anyone suffering from fungal issues (probably more people than recognize it)
Fat J
Member
Hey, I had some thoughts upon reading the fungal infection horror stories.... I had initially sprayed a pyrethrin product on them before I knew that the pyreth was useless on ra. I sprayed everything with it, and the product contained 10% sulphur - smelled kinda bad but I figured, Hey-itll prevent PM so thats cool.
Up until now I had totally written off that product because of the (worthless against ra) pyreth. But I overlooked the sulphur! I have killed my ra and experienced basically no secondary infection or problems with any of my 12 large ladies. I gave credit to the imid as it had killed the sneaky little bastards quite well and brushed off *someone*'s suggestion that my results must be linked to the combination of both treatments.
I forget who it was but I gotta change my story - i believe the sulphur spray was a huge boon in the long run and probably saved my ass as far as the fungal infections go. So yeah, my results suggest that sulphur treatment concurrent with root application of imid may be extremely helpful - my girls are frikin huge n happy n about 2 die(in a good way) ^.^ woohoo
I think the product was called something citrus something erm?? it was a foliar spray from home depot for citrus orchard treatment maybe orchard spray something? Worked for me apparently.
Up until now I had totally written off that product because of the (worthless against ra) pyreth. But I overlooked the sulphur! I have killed my ra and experienced basically no secondary infection or problems with any of my 12 large ladies. I gave credit to the imid as it had killed the sneaky little bastards quite well and brushed off *someone*'s suggestion that my results must be linked to the combination of both treatments.
I forget who it was but I gotta change my story - i believe the sulphur spray was a huge boon in the long run and probably saved my ass as far as the fungal infections go. So yeah, my results suggest that sulphur treatment concurrent with root application of imid may be extremely helpful - my girls are frikin huge n happy n about 2 die(in a good way) ^.^ woohoo
I think the product was called something citrus something erm?? it was a foliar spray from home depot for citrus orchard treatment maybe orchard spray something? Worked for me apparently.
Norkali
Active member
/\ Really? I knocked them out using Pyganic II (5% solution) - it's a pyrethrum. I am having the leaf spot issues now. Mycostop and Oxidate next for me I guess. 
Luckily, I have been spraying Serenade somewhat regularly as a control for PM...may have really been helping me more than I knew.
Luckily, I have been spraying Serenade somewhat regularly as a control for PM...may have really been helping me more than I knew.
peregrinus
New member
Once again, props to everyone contributing to this thread and trying to make it a valuable learning experience for all of us.
After a second weak harvest, a total tear down of my room and a thorough analysis of my hydroton, leaves, trays, root balls....I don't think that root aphids were my problem. I was not able to isolate a single insect that I could positively identify as a RA. In fact I couldn't find ANYTHING in my root balls. All I have seen are a few flying fungus gnats and some fungus gnat larvae (associated with some bright white powdery looking mold on the tops of a few of my Rapid Rooters) and that's it. No 'tanks', 'beetles', etc. In fact, my roots on the last crop were the healthiest, furry whitest, roots I've ever grown.
I really think Spleebale has nudged this thread in the right direction. THANK YOU SPLEE! I also think that everyone that has arrived at this thread may be chasing the same dragon. Its possible that both RAs and FNs are vectors for the same virus/fungus/bacterium, and that is what is causing most of the mysterious Calcium-Magnesium-Phosphorus deficiency symptoms. Somebody mentioned the fact that clones are being traded/sold so heavily now that we have created a perfect mechanism to spread this blight. I totally agree. The good news is that with the internet, it is totally possible to crowd source this problem: with so many of us working diligently to solve this and reporting our observations, we can and will find a solution.
So now, after NOT finding a load of bugs in my pots, I am changing my plan of attack for my next grow in the same room. I am going to proceed as if I am fighting both an insect infestation AND a virual/fungal infection. Another interesting caveat: I have 2 grows going, both using the same 4 mothers I have here in my veg room. Environmental conditions are much hotter and drier, with more air flow in my other grow, and I have yet to see any of these symptoms there. Otherwise, same nutes, same schedule, same medium, same genetics, etc. Also, my last (infected) grow was with 3 strains. Only one (Snow White) was REALLY affected, the other 2 suffered but not nearly as much. Hmmmm.
I am most curious about the droplets/orbs/egg like things that Spleebale observed on his leaves. I have the same thing!!!! Unfortunately I didn't break out my scope until the second bad harvest, but when I did I found that every infected plant had many, many of these little pearl-like orbs on the backs of the leaves. Pretty evenly spaced, sort of associated with little necrotic blisters, looking like spider mite eggs.....but none of them ever hatched and I never found a single bug crawling on my leaves. Again, Im familiar with spider mites and never found a single one. So I am now thinking that these orbs are just the fruiting bodies of a fungus that got into my crops via FNs, simple a that. Sorry for the horrible pic, but i am wondering if these look like what you found Spleebale? Im guessing this is at about 60x...
Right now I'm about to start rebuilding my room. I have a round of clones that had FNs on them, but I have taken care of those with Mosquito Dunks and a Hot Shot No Pest Strip in my veg room. Here's my plan:
1. Already soaked all my trays, plumbing, reservoirs in 10% bleach solution.
2. Already used Dunks to treat for FNs in my tray of clones, and have been watering moms with water with a Dunk in it. Seems to have chased off all the FNs for now.
3. Already scrapped all my Hydroton, will buy all new medium.
4. I'm waiting on a bottle of Physan 20 to treat my entire veg and flower rooms, all my pots, trays, reservoirs, plumbing, etc. I will also use it to treat my clones before going any further with them.
5. Increase (filtered) ventilation because I've been meaning to do that anyway. Also more aggressive low pruning to increase airflow near tops of pots.
6. Keep Mosquito Dunks in reservoirs. Periodic top watering by hand to make sure the tops of the pots that stay dry are treated with Dunks.
7. Foliar spray with Serenade during veg.
8. Addition of Subculture B and Aspirin to my regular feeding regimen
9. Stay vigilant with sticky traps, constant attention, use microscope to search for the "orbs", more foliar Serenade if I start to see necrosis a few weeks into flower, quick removal of any necrotic leaves.
10. I know I should probably scrap my moms (theyre in soil) and start fresh but I can wait that long and I have some great strains. Going to try a Physan 20 saok on them as well. I am also considering using some kind of systemic on my moms (like Merit) just as a preventative. Seems like using a systemic on moms, since they are always in veg, might be a good preventative measure.
Thanks again to everyone contributing here. I'll post again when I get back up and running in a week or so. Good luck to all.
After a second weak harvest, a total tear down of my room and a thorough analysis of my hydroton, leaves, trays, root balls....I don't think that root aphids were my problem. I was not able to isolate a single insect that I could positively identify as a RA. In fact I couldn't find ANYTHING in my root balls. All I have seen are a few flying fungus gnats and some fungus gnat larvae (associated with some bright white powdery looking mold on the tops of a few of my Rapid Rooters) and that's it. No 'tanks', 'beetles', etc. In fact, my roots on the last crop were the healthiest, furry whitest, roots I've ever grown.
I really think Spleebale has nudged this thread in the right direction. THANK YOU SPLEE! I also think that everyone that has arrived at this thread may be chasing the same dragon. Its possible that both RAs and FNs are vectors for the same virus/fungus/bacterium, and that is what is causing most of the mysterious Calcium-Magnesium-Phosphorus deficiency symptoms. Somebody mentioned the fact that clones are being traded/sold so heavily now that we have created a perfect mechanism to spread this blight. I totally agree. The good news is that with the internet, it is totally possible to crowd source this problem: with so many of us working diligently to solve this and reporting our observations, we can and will find a solution.
So now, after NOT finding a load of bugs in my pots, I am changing my plan of attack for my next grow in the same room. I am going to proceed as if I am fighting both an insect infestation AND a virual/fungal infection. Another interesting caveat: I have 2 grows going, both using the same 4 mothers I have here in my veg room. Environmental conditions are much hotter and drier, with more air flow in my other grow, and I have yet to see any of these symptoms there. Otherwise, same nutes, same schedule, same medium, same genetics, etc. Also, my last (infected) grow was with 3 strains. Only one (Snow White) was REALLY affected, the other 2 suffered but not nearly as much. Hmmmm.
I am most curious about the droplets/orbs/egg like things that Spleebale observed on his leaves. I have the same thing!!!! Unfortunately I didn't break out my scope until the second bad harvest, but when I did I found that every infected plant had many, many of these little pearl-like orbs on the backs of the leaves. Pretty evenly spaced, sort of associated with little necrotic blisters, looking like spider mite eggs.....but none of them ever hatched and I never found a single bug crawling on my leaves. Again, Im familiar with spider mites and never found a single one. So I am now thinking that these orbs are just the fruiting bodies of a fungus that got into my crops via FNs, simple a that. Sorry for the horrible pic, but i am wondering if these look like what you found Spleebale? Im guessing this is at about 60x...
And finally, here are the tiny "eggs" I'm seeing all over the lower surfaces of the "infected" plants. I know, I know, they look like spider mite eggs but I don't think they are. I have NO adult mites, no stippling on leaves, and I've been down that road before. Also can't seem to find any of these hatching or ANYTHING crawling on my leaves.
Right now I'm about to start rebuilding my room. I have a round of clones that had FNs on them, but I have taken care of those with Mosquito Dunks and a Hot Shot No Pest Strip in my veg room. Here's my plan:
1. Already soaked all my trays, plumbing, reservoirs in 10% bleach solution.
2. Already used Dunks to treat for FNs in my tray of clones, and have been watering moms with water with a Dunk in it. Seems to have chased off all the FNs for now.
3. Already scrapped all my Hydroton, will buy all new medium.
4. I'm waiting on a bottle of Physan 20 to treat my entire veg and flower rooms, all my pots, trays, reservoirs, plumbing, etc. I will also use it to treat my clones before going any further with them.
5. Increase (filtered) ventilation because I've been meaning to do that anyway. Also more aggressive low pruning to increase airflow near tops of pots.
6. Keep Mosquito Dunks in reservoirs. Periodic top watering by hand to make sure the tops of the pots that stay dry are treated with Dunks.
7. Foliar spray with Serenade during veg.
8. Addition of Subculture B and Aspirin to my regular feeding regimen
9. Stay vigilant with sticky traps, constant attention, use microscope to search for the "orbs", more foliar Serenade if I start to see necrosis a few weeks into flower, quick removal of any necrotic leaves.
10. I know I should probably scrap my moms (theyre in soil) and start fresh but I can wait that long and I have some great strains. Going to try a Physan 20 saok on them as well. I am also considering using some kind of systemic on my moms (like Merit) just as a preventative. Seems like using a systemic on moms, since they are always in veg, might be a good preventative measure.
Thanks again to everyone contributing here. I'll post again when I get back up and running in a week or so. Good luck to all.
Ganja Goddess
New member
I'm going to toss out more plants...
Not from Root Aphids though, my latest research and on advise from a very close friend who has owned a nursery for over 20 years tells me that IMID is really bad stuff to ingest...
Yea! I got rid of the pests, but I'm feeling the treatment is worse than the disease.
I treated the new rez that had RA with the Bayer product sold at the Depot. It did work, the RA's were dead really fast! The veg plants plants started growing again. I have not seen any RA since...
IMID has residual effect for a year or more. Vegging longer and going thru flowering is not enough time to clear IMID from our plants.
I'm glad the pest is gone, but I am tossing the plants. I've steamed the rooms, they are getting painted top to bottom... My old rails are going to be replaced with new ones. I realize I am practicing overkill in totally redoing my rooms, but hopefully I never have to revisit the RA insanity again.
This is a great thread. Lots of info, I really hope someone can come up with a treatment that is less toxic than IMID.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The text below is from this web page, Half-life means the residual in the soil is 50% of the original dosage applied to the soil or plant.
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/Imidclprdfate2.pdf
Soil: The high water solubility and low Koc for imidacloprid indicates a low tendency for
adsorption to soil particles. Field studies have produced a wide range in half-life values (t1/2)
from 27 to 229 days (Miles, Inc., 1992; Mobay Chemical Corp., 1992). Scholz et al. (1992)
found that imidacloprid degradation was more rapid in soils with cover crops than in bare soils,
with a t1/2 of 48 and 190 days, respectively. Degradation on soil via photolysis has a t1/2 of 39
days. The half-life of imidacloprid in the soil tends to increase as soil pH increases (Sarkar et al.,
2001). In the absence of light, the longest half-life of imidacloprid was 229 days in field studies
and 997 days in laboratory studies (Miles, Inc., 1992; Mobay Chemical Corp., 1992). This
persistence in soil in the absence of light makes imidacloprid suitable for seed treatment and
incorporated soil application because it allows continual availability for uptake by roots
(Mullins, 1993). Thus, imidacloprid can persist in soil depending on soil type, pH, use of
organic fertilizers, and presence or absence of ground cover.
Soil adsorption and half-life estimates have been shown to be dependent on soil properties. Field
and laboratory studies have determined that imidacloprid adsorption to soil particles increases as
the concentration of the insecticide decreases (Cox et al., 1998; Oi, 1999; Kamble and Saran,
2005). The sorption level of imidacloprid is also affected by soil properties such as organic
carbon and minerals. As the organic carbon levels and laminar silicate clay content in the soil
increase, the potential for imidacloprid to leach would decrease (Cox et al., 1997, 1998b, 1998c).
Organic fertilizers, such as chicken and cow manure, increased the pesticide adsorption to the
organic matter and increased its half-life. Half-lives ranged from 40 days when no organic
fertilizers were used to 124 days when cow manure was used. However, residual insecticide soil
concentrations were low at the time of harvest, similar to those not treated with organic
fertilizers; no correlation was found between Koc and the soil carbon content (Rouchaud et al.,
1996b). In contrast, imidacloprid adsorption in a calcerous soil was found to decrease with the
addition of organic carbon (obtained from peat and tannic acid) (Flores-Céspedes et al., 2002);
this could increase the mobility and leaching potential of imidacloprid. The presence of
conflicting studies seems to indicate that the fate of imidacloprid in the soil is highly sensitive to
soil composition and sources of organic carbon.
Not from Root Aphids though, my latest research and on advise from a very close friend who has owned a nursery for over 20 years tells me that IMID is really bad stuff to ingest...
Yea! I got rid of the pests, but I'm feeling the treatment is worse than the disease.
I treated the new rez that had RA with the Bayer product sold at the Depot. It did work, the RA's were dead really fast! The veg plants plants started growing again. I have not seen any RA since...
IMID has residual effect for a year or more. Vegging longer and going thru flowering is not enough time to clear IMID from our plants.
I'm glad the pest is gone, but I am tossing the plants. I've steamed the rooms, they are getting painted top to bottom... My old rails are going to be replaced with new ones. I realize I am practicing overkill in totally redoing my rooms, but hopefully I never have to revisit the RA insanity again.
This is a great thread. Lots of info, I really hope someone can come up with a treatment that is less toxic than IMID.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The text below is from this web page, Half-life means the residual in the soil is 50% of the original dosage applied to the soil or plant.
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/Imidclprdfate2.pdf
Soil: The high water solubility and low Koc for imidacloprid indicates a low tendency for
adsorption to soil particles. Field studies have produced a wide range in half-life values (t1/2)
from 27 to 229 days (Miles, Inc., 1992; Mobay Chemical Corp., 1992). Scholz et al. (1992)
found that imidacloprid degradation was more rapid in soils with cover crops than in bare soils,
with a t1/2 of 48 and 190 days, respectively. Degradation on soil via photolysis has a t1/2 of 39
days. The half-life of imidacloprid in the soil tends to increase as soil pH increases (Sarkar et al.,
2001). In the absence of light, the longest half-life of imidacloprid was 229 days in field studies
and 997 days in laboratory studies (Miles, Inc., 1992; Mobay Chemical Corp., 1992). This
persistence in soil in the absence of light makes imidacloprid suitable for seed treatment and
incorporated soil application because it allows continual availability for uptake by roots
(Mullins, 1993). Thus, imidacloprid can persist in soil depending on soil type, pH, use of
organic fertilizers, and presence or absence of ground cover.
Soil adsorption and half-life estimates have been shown to be dependent on soil properties. Field
and laboratory studies have determined that imidacloprid adsorption to soil particles increases as
the concentration of the insecticide decreases (Cox et al., 1998; Oi, 1999; Kamble and Saran,
2005). The sorption level of imidacloprid is also affected by soil properties such as organic
carbon and minerals. As the organic carbon levels and laminar silicate clay content in the soil
increase, the potential for imidacloprid to leach would decrease (Cox et al., 1997, 1998b, 1998c).
Organic fertilizers, such as chicken and cow manure, increased the pesticide adsorption to the
organic matter and increased its half-life. Half-lives ranged from 40 days when no organic
fertilizers were used to 124 days when cow manure was used. However, residual insecticide soil
concentrations were low at the time of harvest, similar to those not treated with organic
fertilizers; no correlation was found between Koc and the soil carbon content (Rouchaud et al.,
1996b). In contrast, imidacloprid adsorption in a calcerous soil was found to decrease with the
addition of organic carbon (obtained from peat and tannic acid) (Flores-Céspedes et al., 2002);
this could increase the mobility and leaching potential of imidacloprid. The presence of
conflicting studies seems to indicate that the fate of imidacloprid in the soil is highly sensitive to
soil composition and sources of organic carbon.
Yeah, I wouldn't eat or drink the stuff either.
I think you need to find better source material for your research. The data you posted directly contradicts what you said unless you're growing outside in the ground with high levels of organic fertilizers. I'll cite it below. Thank goodness I grow indoors in coco with chemical ferts.
All the studies I've seen refer to half-life in soil instead of systemic life within the plant. Anybody with a GC care to analyze a sample or two? SamS, I'm thinking of you, buddy.
.....
.......
Ganja Goddess
New member
Humble1, I'm not here to argue with you. Use IMID if you want to. Personally I won't.
I grow aero and don't plan to use IMID. My mind was made up just based on my friends recommendation alone. I trust him when he says you dont want to use IMID. The study I posted was something I found last week. I thought it was interesting.
There is a wide range of residual times cited with conflicting studies. Issuing a blanket statement that IMID is clear after a slightly longer veg time doesn't seem to be accurate, my friend said IMID is active for one year.
I think people need to read up, and make a decision for themselves.
I grow aero and don't plan to use IMID. My mind was made up just based on my friends recommendation alone. I trust him when he says you dont want to use IMID. The study I posted was something I found last week. I thought it was interesting.
There is a wide range of residual times cited with conflicting studies. Issuing a blanket statement that IMID is clear after a slightly longer veg time doesn't seem to be accurate, my friend said IMID is active for one year.
I think people need to read up, and make a decision for themselves.
I used imid because it's the only thing that kills RAs. I had to break the cycle and get these things out of my garden, however, I did destroy all treated plants afterwards. I used the minimum dosage, which works well, and that is why I disagree with using high levels of Merit. People using high levels of merit to "save" their plants are playing with fire, IMO. Although I don't believe low levels of imid as directed on bottle label would be harmful if used in veg, I am still tossing the treated plants after the killing. In these situations, I believe it is better to start over, and I believe that using imid on a single or two mother plants which will never be consumed is a good "Trojan Horse" to control any future invaders.
P-grinus:YES! That is pretty much exactly what they look like! In some places they are in WAY higher number on many of my leaves (easily 10-20X that concentration) where they look like they are evenly spaced out in every spot they essentially could be in (almost like following the layout of plant pores) and in these cases they are more often transparent than translucent (though there will be one in about 50-100 that is milky-white). Many areas that are thoroughly covered like this tend to take on a sort of glistening look because of all the reflection from all the drops/orbs.
On a few leaves I just harvested though (I took off a couple of the nice ones near the top on plants that had just received sprays - one w/ 30 mL/gal H2O2, the other with Fungastop) I looked just now and they look almost just like the ones you provided - except they tend to appear more nustled-down in, against the leaf surface (where yours seem to be protruding a bit - maybe its just the shot), milky-white in color. I find them on the leaf-stems also, but not in as great of numbers. I am curious about those hairs as well. They appear to be cystolith hairs (just like mine) but in some areas they seem to be in greater numbers on the leaf surface in a patch (perhaps the plants defense response?).
I am throwing out a conjectural hypothesis that these are micro-droplets of plant-juice oozing from pores where the fungi have made microscopic lesions to promote fluid-flow. This is consistent with tidbits I found in literature about leaf lesions and leaf fungi penetrating the leaf for fluid and spilling it onto the leaf. Do not believe me on this, though, until we have more evidence - for now it is just something to work with. One fact that speaks against it, however, is all of the little blister-looking things on the top-side of leaves that look like orbs that "popped." - This suggests that the orbs may be part of a different organism and not just plant-juice oozing from lesions, unless these same sorts of lesions are made on the tops of leaves as well, where the fluid drys up.
I have not done a cross-analysis of before and after or of the two spray types I did, but I can say that the leaves I just looked at (which were newer, top leaves on a healthier set of plants as opposed to lower leaves starting to show "signs" on plants starting to have issues) did NOT have the amazingly high concentrations of these orbs on the underside (though the top surfaces still seemed "blistered" with orbs that seem to have popped). There were about 1/50th as many orbs on these leaves (a few milky-white solo-orbs here and there, no higher in concentration than in Peregrinus's pic, and then a few areas that seemed to have many of the clear ones and a few milky ones just about everywhere).
The lower concentration of these orbs on healthier leaves (particularly on already healthy plants that I just sprayed with stuff to kill pathogens) leads me to much more strongly believe that these are either pathogenic or are the effect of some pathogen and not merely a natural plant occurrence. More study into the mysterious orbs is needed. More people should get scopes (they should be no more than $20 for a good 50-100X scope). We should all do some experimenting and reporting. I am about to start Serenade trials later tonight.
On a few leaves I just harvested though (I took off a couple of the nice ones near the top on plants that had just received sprays - one w/ 30 mL/gal H2O2, the other with Fungastop) I looked just now and they look almost just like the ones you provided - except they tend to appear more nustled-down in, against the leaf surface (where yours seem to be protruding a bit - maybe its just the shot), milky-white in color. I find them on the leaf-stems also, but not in as great of numbers. I am curious about those hairs as well. They appear to be cystolith hairs (just like mine) but in some areas they seem to be in greater numbers on the leaf surface in a patch (perhaps the plants defense response?).
I am throwing out a conjectural hypothesis that these are micro-droplets of plant-juice oozing from pores where the fungi have made microscopic lesions to promote fluid-flow. This is consistent with tidbits I found in literature about leaf lesions and leaf fungi penetrating the leaf for fluid and spilling it onto the leaf. Do not believe me on this, though, until we have more evidence - for now it is just something to work with. One fact that speaks against it, however, is all of the little blister-looking things on the top-side of leaves that look like orbs that "popped." - This suggests that the orbs may be part of a different organism and not just plant-juice oozing from lesions, unless these same sorts of lesions are made on the tops of leaves as well, where the fluid drys up.
I have not done a cross-analysis of before and after or of the two spray types I did, but I can say that the leaves I just looked at (which were newer, top leaves on a healthier set of plants as opposed to lower leaves starting to show "signs" on plants starting to have issues) did NOT have the amazingly high concentrations of these orbs on the underside (though the top surfaces still seemed "blistered" with orbs that seem to have popped). There were about 1/50th as many orbs on these leaves (a few milky-white solo-orbs here and there, no higher in concentration than in Peregrinus's pic, and then a few areas that seemed to have many of the clear ones and a few milky ones just about everywhere).
The lower concentration of these orbs on healthier leaves (particularly on already healthy plants that I just sprayed with stuff to kill pathogens) leads me to much more strongly believe that these are either pathogenic or are the effect of some pathogen and not merely a natural plant occurrence. More study into the mysterious orbs is needed. More people should get scopes (they should be no more than $20 for a good 50-100X scope). We should all do some experimenting and reporting. I am about to start Serenade trials later tonight.
agreed.
I reported on these "white specs" way back in this thread, as I saw them in my microscope. They looked like eggs to me. At least that's what I thought initially when I saw them. Plants are now gone. These could be eggs that were killed by the treatment, or they could be fungal. Hard to be certain.
Norkali
Active member
I will be checking my plants closely for any of these 'bulbs', but to get back to the aphids themselves...
The local nursery (20-30+ years experience, multiple people) said Pyrethrum for root aphids. I know we have previously written off pyrethrums, but it worked for me. Pyganic II (5% pyrethrum vs. .2% in Don't Bug Me) knocked them out, along with some Azatrol just to be sure.
She mentioned that it needs to be applied twice, (again 4-5 days after the first treatment,) I presume for any eggs/larvae that hatch, but this second dose is what previous pyrethrum users may/must have missed in eradicating them.
The local nursery (20-30+ years experience, multiple people) said Pyrethrum for root aphids. I know we have previously written off pyrethrums, but it worked for me. Pyganic II (5% pyrethrum vs. .2% in Don't Bug Me) knocked them out, along with some Azatrol just to be sure.
She mentioned that it needs to be applied twice, (again 4-5 days after the first treatment,) I presume for any eggs/larvae that hatch, but this second dose is what previous pyrethrum users may/must have missed in eradicating them.
Y
Yankee Grower
That's my understanding. I'd re-phrase that though and say active up to one year. Considering how things degrade it for sure is not 100% active till day 364 then 0% active at day 365.
I would not flower plants treated with imid. Mainly cause of the residual in the soil/medium. I would not have a problem growing out clones, then eventually flowering, from an imid treated mom. I'd venture to guess that imid would not be detectable in the flowered out clones.
lemme ask this....would smoking a plant that had been treated w imid be worse then smoking the horseshit chemically loaded "medicine" they sell here in the cali dispensaries that get juiced right up to the day of harvest? that may be a silly question...but im not afraid of my ignorance! haha
The imid I used was .7%. One half ounce per gallon means that the .7% was diluted 256 times. I believe that when applied in veg, there is absolutely no imid left in the plant at all, and that smoking that plant will have no effect except getting you stoned.
I do not believe those levels of imid are dangerous at all, and that is why they have an imid product for citrus. If it can be used on foodstuff, it is safe enough for me. The air we breathe is probably more toxic.
