Genetic Drift?

[Grat3fulh3ad]

ok..im wrong

If you think the excerpt you pasted proved your point or debunked darwinism, then you're wrong twice =].

They have found mechanism through which it could be possible, but have yet to find it occurring or having had occurred.
"it has to be determined whether the environment can induce an epigenetic change in an organism that can be inherited in subsequent generations. Certainly, nobody has shown that an epigenetically induced beneficial or adaptive change has been inherited."
I'm not saying it cannot be as you imagine it to be, only that nothing has shown it to be and there are known observed mechanisms for most inheritance and most biological responses

.


As it stands now... I can buy into the notion that inheritance may not be 100% genetic, but even if you neo-lamarckians are right, the genome is still responsible for 99.99% of all inheritance. Natural selection and evolution are not at all debunked. And, your genome is 99% chimp.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

ok..im wrong

If you think the excerpt you pasted proved your point or debunked darwinism, then you're wrong twice =].

 

[englishrick]

i dont think that post Debunked Darwin totaly!!,,,,,it just think it raises questions with dogma,,,,no clear answers have been given,,,,Darwins theory has holes,,just like Lamarck,,,,but Lamarck is the only 1 who gets laughed at

yes,,,im probbly am more of a "neo-lamarckian",,,,,than a "neo Darwinian",,,,,but nither had it boxed!!,,,,they were both wrong, the truth of the matter is probbly a blend of the 2

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

i dont think that post Debunked Darwin totaly!!,,,,,it just think it raises questions with dogma,,,,no clear answers have been given,,,,Darwins theory has holes,,just like Lamarck,,,,but Lamarck is the only 1 who gets laughed at

yes,,,im probbly am more of a "neo-lamarckian",,,,,than a "neo Darwinian",,,,,but nither had it boxed!!,,,,they were both wrong, the truth of the matter is probbly a blend of the 2

a) It did not debunk Darwin one bit.

b) Debunking details of Darwin's guesswork does not in any debunk what we know and have observed. We are getting to the point where we know more about how the genome functions than we have yet to learn. Nothing discovered is inconsistent with darwinism.

c)What "holes" exist in darwinism (in it's current form)?

Darwin allowed for it to be a blend of the two. Have you not read darwin, and only read things others have said about darwin? It is only after Darwin that darwinism became so dogmatically against the idea.

Darwin without a doubt had a more accurate philosophy of evolution than Lamarck did. Lamarck was no dunce, and given the scope of knowledge he was working with, his conclusions were reasonable at that time... but for the longest time since then the all data has indicated that the more likely of the two philosophies is Darwin's by a margin of 100%. It seems as though the bulk of the newest data indicates that there may be some small influence by mechanisms which could be construed as a form of soft inheritance. That does not mean Lamarck was any "righter" or that Darwin was "wronger"... It only means that another mechanism exist which could have influenced evolution, though we still have no evidence that it did.

Since the mechanism exists, it must occasionally occur(and I'm sure they will find an example eventually), but it still seems as though the lion's share of the credit goes to the genome.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Anyone who wants to get a good understanding of plant breeding needs to study corn.

More work has been done with the Maize genome than any other organism. They damn near know what function every loci on all 10 chromosomes influences. They have had the genome mapped for years. The market has poured billions of dollars into corn research.

 

[RNDZL]

I was doing some research on epigenetics and it seems lamarckian has not been forgotten

Whats it mean to us?!?!? i dont know but there are tons and tons of emerging studies on the subject and i believe many of the answer we seek will be around the corner as epigenetics get mroe interest


Did Paul Kammerer discover epigenetic inheritance? A modern look at the controversial midwife toad experiments

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122581597/abstract

ABSTRACT

The controversy surrounding the alleged Lamarckian fraud of Paul Kammerer's midwife toad experiments has intrigued generations of biologists. A re-examination of his descriptions of hybrid crosses of treated and nontreated toads reveals parent-of-origin effects like those documented in epigenetic inheritance. Modification of the extracellular matrix of the egg as described by Kammerer provides a plausible cause for altered gene methylation patterns. Traits such as altered egg and adult body size in Kammerer's treated toads are inherited epigenetically in other tetrapods. A preliminary model involving the environmental silencing of a maternally inherited allele can be attempted to explain the midwife toad experiments. Given available molecular tools and our current understanding of epigenetics, new experimentation with the midwife toad is strongly encouraged. J. Exp. Zool. (Mol. Dev. Evol.) 312B:667-678, 2009. © 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

 

[RNDZL]

this is very interesting. I believe epigenetic influence can be considered genomic shock. This appears to be one of the mechanisms nature uses to contain certain epigenetic influences in plants


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2757398/

Small RNAs serve as a genetic buffer against genomic shock in Arabidopsis interspecific hybrids and allopolyploids

Small RNAs, including microRNAs (miRNAs), small interfering RNAs (siRNAs), and trans-acting siRNAs (tasiRNAs), control gene expression and epigenetic regulation. Although the roles of miRNAs and siRNAs have been extensively studied, their expression diversity and evolution in closely related species and interspecific hybrids are poorly understood. Here, we show comprehensive analyses of miRNA expression and siRNA distributions in two closely related species Arabidopsis thaliana and Arabidopsis arenosa, a natural allotetraploid Arabidopsis suecica, and two resynthesized allotetraploid lines (F1 and F7) derived from A. thaliana and A. arenosa. We found that repeat- and transposon-associated siRNAs were highly divergent between A. thaliana and A. arenosa. A. thaliana siRNA populations underwent rapid changes in F1 but were stably maintained in F7 and A. suecica. The correlation between siRNAs and nonadditive gene expression in allopolyploids is insignificant. In contrast, miRNA and tasiRNA sequences were conserved between species, but their expression patterns were highly variable between the allotetraploids and their progenitors. Many miRNAs tested were nonadditively expressed (deviating from the mid-parent value, MPV) in the allotetraploids and triggered unequal degradation of A. thaliana or A. arenosa targets. The data suggest that small RNAs produced during interspecific hybridization or polyploidization serve as a buffer against the genomic shock in interspecific hybrids and allopolyploids: Stable inheritance of repeat-associated siRNAs maintains chromatin and genome stability, whereas expression variation of miRNAs leads to changes in gene expression, growth vigor, and adaptation.


for for later

links to 410 published epigenetic studies presented to the national academy of science

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=epigenetics and plant evolution&itool=QuerySuggestion

link to 124 more found under Wiley inter science journal

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/...=WISall&WISsearch1=epigenetic+plant+evolution

 

[englishrick]

i think your missunderstanding what im saying Head,,,

^^^^this image is totaly inaccurate,,,,,when i relized this it made me think differently,,,thats all im sayin...

true...as every serious student of evolution knows,, darwin did subscribe to the inheritance of acquired characters as an important subsidiary mechanism to natural selection,,, it was only his followers the neo-darwinists who were opposed to it an since the first publication of the Origin of Species in 1859 darwin became more and more absorbed with the idea,,

Darwin recognized that cells multiply by division, and preserve their nature, accounting for cell heredity. but it could not explain phenomena such as the effects of use and disuse witch is another Lamarckian mechanism of evolution,,,,

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

^^^^this image is totaly inaccurate,,,,,when i relized this it made me think differently,,,thats all im sayin...

The image is not totally inaccurate... it is partially inaccurate.

It is an oversimplification of an accurate concept.

Man and apes come from a common ancestor as new world monkeys which lived in the eocine epoch, and share a common ancestor with old world monkeys which lived in the oligocine epoch. Our most recent common ancestor with the great apes is within the last 25 million years, and it looks like we diverged from out common chimp ancestor less than 10 million years ago.

Biologists classify humans, along with only a few other species, as great apes (species in the family Hominidae). The Hominidae include two distinct species of chimpanzee (the bonobo, Pan paniscus, and the common chimpanzee, Pan troglodytes), two species of gorilla (the western gorilla, Gorilla gorilla, and the eastern gorilla, Gorilla graueri), and two species of orangutan (the Bornean orangutan, Pongo pygmaeus, and the Sumatran orangutan, Pongo abelii).
Apes, in turn, belong to the primates order (>400 species). Data from both mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and nuclear DNA (nDNA) indicates that primates belong to the group of Euarchontoglires, together with Rodentia, Lagomorpha, Dermoptera, and Scandentia.[1] This is further supported by Alu-like short interspersed nuclear elements (SINEs) which have been found only in members of the Euarchontoglires.[2]
[edit]

The separation of humans from their closest relatives, the African apes (chimpanzees and gorillas) has been studied for more than a century and the amount of scientific publications on that subject is huge.

The sequence divergence varies significantly between humans, chimpanzees and gorillas.
For most DNA sequences, humans and chimpanzees appear to be most closely related, but some point to a human-gorilla or chimpanzee-gorilla clade.
The human genome has been sequenced, as well as the chimpanzee genome. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, while chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans have 24. Human chromosome 2 is a fusion between two chromosomes that remained separate in the other primates

An international group of scientists has completed a draft of 63 percent of the Neanderthal genome, consisting of 3.7 billion base pairs.[17] Some parts of the Neanderthal genome have more in common with chimps than humans[clarification needed], while other parts are shared by both Neanderthals and humans. Neanderthals and most humans share a lactose-intolerant variant of the lactase gene that encodes an enzyme that is unable to break down lactose in milk after weaning. Humans and Neanderthals also share the FOXP2 gene variant associated with brain development and with speech in humans, indicating that Neanderthals may have been able to speak. Chimps have two amino acid differences in FOXP2 compared with human FOXP2.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Does the software rebuild the hardware?
most likely not.

Is the hardware/software configuration which is most compatible with the environment the likely to be the most survivable? Of course.

Does the software control how the hardware functions or how it's functions are configured? absolutely.

 

[chef]

Cool thread I'm still following along...

Excuse the temp hijack, but the right group is gathered here
I'd be really interested in hearing your thoughts about "Hybrid Vigor" & the science behind it. Has anyone discovered the keys to it yet?
Its a total mystery to me? kinda reminds me of electricity... don't know what the hell it is, but I know how to create, control & exploit it!

New thread for anyone interested & so not to jack this one

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3402628#post3402628

cheers

 

[chemsteady]

?

?

any good corn (link)recommendations, h3ad?

~c

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

any good corn (link)recommendations, h3ad?

~c

Easy to get started, so much has been published.
You may have to subscribe to get a lot of the papers which are out there it seems.
Looks like Journal of Heredity now has the copyrights to a large number of the papers.


http://www.docstoc.com/docs/29776424/THE-BASICS-OF-CORN-BREEDING_-INBREDS-AND-HYBRIDS

http://www.ontariocorn.org/magazine/Issues/pre Nov 2005/ocpmag/dec99feat.html

http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/plantsci/breeding/corn/methods.htm

http://www.agron.missouri.edu/mnl/19/25Stadler.htm

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

My favorite thing about man and corn is how much man has changed corn in its many different forms today from its ancestor teosinte. Today it is dependent on man 100%, without man to plant and harvest corn it would be gone in a few years, all from the hand of man.....
I always hoped Cannabis could avoid such a fate, but the market is already 75% all female seeds and Cannabis will change for sure, if no males are used for 100+ years or even more, I just have no idea how. I always suspected that legal growers in the future would use certified virus free clones each crop, a little bit like the viticulture industry, how many different wine grape clones are grown worldwide? A lot less then you would think. Hope Cannabis is different, but I have my doubts...
-SamS

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I agree completely Sam.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Here is a powerpoint presentation

http://www.chaseiowa.com/webfiles/PlantBreedingBasics.pps

Introduction to Maize Breeding


Nathan Schnur





Overview

What is Plant Breeding?
Basic Genetics
Mendelian Genetics
Principles of Breeding Maize
Plant Breeding Methods




Plant Breeding

What is it?
Is the science and art of improving crop plants through the study and application of genetics, agronomy, statistics, plant pathology, entomology, and other related sciences.
Goals
Nutritional enhancement, yield improvement, environmental stress tolerance, improved plant structure, or pest and disease resistance




Basic Plant Genetics
DNA
Primary carries of heritable information
Composed of thousands of genes

Genes
Contain actual heritable information
There can be many versions of genes called alleles

There are two alleles for any gene

Dominant and Recessive
Two dominant alleles are denoted as “AA” and called homozygous dominant
Two recessive alleles are denoted as “aa” and called homozygous recessive
If one dominant and one recessive allele is present then it is denoted as “Aa” and called heterozygous.

Alleles which are heterozygous or homozygous affect the phenotypes and genotypes of plants

Phenotype
Visual appearance of the plant

Genotype
Genetic makeup of the plant



Mendelian Genetics
Gregor Mendel
Famous geneticist from 1800’s
His research consisted of selectively breeding garden peas
He developed two important laws of genetics
Law of Segregation
Law of Independent Assortment




Principles of Breeding Maize
Three Main Principles
Inbreeding
Hybridization
Heterosis




Inbreeding

Main Goals:
Increase the homozygosity at all or specific loci in the plant genome
Produce a plant which breeds true
Produce uniform plants




Hybridization of Maize:
Hybridization occurs when inbred parents are mated (cross pollinated)
Creates a heterozygous individual
Benefits
Increased heterosis (vigor) in F1 generation




Heterosis (Hybrid Vigor):
Heterosis occurs when two homozygous individuals are cross pollinated.
This causes all loci to become heterozygous
The increased heterozygosity causes increased plant vigor

Benefits of Increased Vigor
Increased yield
Better standability
Better germination
Overall better plant performance










Maize Breeding Methods


Main Methods of Maize Breeding
Selfing (Inbreeding)
Sib Mating
Crossing
Test Crossing
Backcrossing




Selfing

Selfing is the process of pollinating a plant with its own pollen

Benefits
Increased homozygosity
Plants which breed true from generation to generation
Decreased Segregation

Disadvantages
Many generations of selfing lead to inbreeding depression



Crossing and Test Crossing
Crossing is useful when trying to create hybrid seed.
Ex. By crossing “Inbred A x Inbred a” you would obtain an F1 hybrid Aa
Crossing is used to produce the hybrid seed farmers use to plant in the spring
Test Crossing is useful to test general combining ability of an individual
Ex. Inbred A is x to a tester which has a diverse selection of genotypes





Backcrossing

Backcrossing is a method which is used to improve a trait which a plant is deficient in.
Method
A hybrid plant which has the trait of interest is crossed with one of its parents
The offspring are then crossed back to the parent, thus increasing the frequency of the trait.

Conclusion

Plant breeding is a complicated but beneficial process.
There are many processes involved which are used in the development of new varieties.
Remember if it wasn’t for plant breeding we wouldn’t have such high yielding crops




References

Fehr, W. Principles of Cultivar Development. 1993. Volume 1

Photos Courtesy of
www.pioneer.com
www.britannica.com
www.psu.edu
http://imbgl.cropsci.uiuc.edu
www.nsf.gov
www.scienceclarified.com

 

[Raco]

I agree completely Sam.

+1
This is a very good thread...just thought that experts here might help explain what happened to these PTK cuts:

here´s the mother from seed...the lowest branches were removed and rooted,and kept under fluros

A couple of her seeds were grown outdoors and the plants were columnar...here´s one:

And here´s a cut from the original plant

cuts from the cut above produced normal almost columnar plants with big wide leaves.The one in the back did not came from the same clone and is already "mutated"

I had these clones for a long time,they got infected by spidermites and started to flower!

So I was going to kill them,but eventually decided to kill the mites and pruned them and put one under a 600 HPS

This one produced 40 gr+...the mother only 20 or so!

I´ll be back later with more pics

 

[DocLeaf]

My favorite thing about man and corn is how much man has changed corn in its many different forms today from its ancestor teosinte. Today it is dependent on man 100%, without man to plant and harvest corn it would be gone in a few years, all from the hand of man.....
I always hoped Cannabis could avoid such a fate, but the market is already 75% all female seeds and Cannabis will change for sure, if no males are used for 100+ years or even more, I just have no idea how. I always suspected that legal growers in the future would use certified virus free clones each crop, a little bit like the viticulture industry, how many different wine grape clones are grown worldwide? A lot less then you would think. Hope Cannabis is different, but I have my doubts...
-SamS

Great post... true says,, we donate/prop old-school pop-corn genetics for this reason,, if we dont grow em,, who will?

The dreams still alive man,, we're aiming to make regular cannabis genetics,, some from your own stock,,, feral again,, indoor and outdoor,, so they cant stop it,, one love style! ,, it's still a ganja anarchy.. it's just many of the new fields and frontlines being cultivated are indoors ,, they cant claim what they dont own,, like Author Pendragon

As for "drifting" ,, cats only stray,,, when they cant find a good home !!

 

[englishrick]

more and more evidence indicating that the complexity of the genetic architecture can be largely attributed to epistasis has been provided, which plays a significant role in heterosis, inbreeding depression, adaptation, reproductive isolation, and speciation.......

evolution researches have established that the assembly and maintenance of favorable epistatic combination adapted for a specific environment is a major mechanism of adaptation in various plant species (Allard 1996).

Sam is right,,,an with sutch finesse,,,,,we are at risk!,,,yes we DO live in a golden age!,,,,,an if we dont use males we will limit vairiation! , but without feminization we risk losing supirior genotypes,,,it is somewhat a conflict of intrest!

i personly feel the best overall evoloutionary strategy is multiobjective optimization couppled with repair cycles and a few other tricks,,,but thats just me ,,,i dont think im a heretic but people tell me differently??

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

more and more evidence indicating that the complexity of the genetic architecture can be largely attributed to epistasis has been provided, which plays a significant role in heterosis, inbreeding depression, adaptation, reproductive isolation, and speciation.......

evolution researches have established that the assembly and maintenance of favorable epistatic combination adapted for a specific environment is a major mechanism of adaptation in various plant species (Allard 1996).

Sam is right,,,an with sutch finesse,,,,,we are at risk!,,,yes we DO live in a golden age!,,,,,an if we dont use males we will limit vairiation! , but without feminization we risk losing supirior genotypes,,,it is somewhat a conflict of intrest!

i personly feel the best overall evoloutionary strategy is multiobjective optimization couppled with repair cycles and a few other tricks,,,but thats just me ,,,i dont think im a heretic but people tell me differently??

You know "epistasis" and "epistatic" are completely different from "epigenetic", right?

epistasis |əˈpistəsis|
noun Genetics
the interaction of genes that are not alleles, in particular the suppression of the effect of one such gene by another.

DERIVATIVES
epistatic |ˌepiˈstatik| adjective

When you talk of "evolutionary strategy" it makes it sound as though you think the organisms intend to evolve and have a plan for how to do it best. Heretical, not really. I just think you have a tendency to carry concepts past their realities.