Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[spleebale]

Goddess: What substance did you use on the plants again? The RAs definitely have toxic spit, which I believe lingers for a while, but also the pathogens they deliver and the heavy watering and chems used to fight them all hurt the ladies. It certainly seems like the damage can be really bad, even when there are scarcely any RAs around, or after they have been mostly eradicated.

As for the botanigard: be careful. Start w/ low doses and test in on ONE plant, waiting at least two days to see how it responds. Botanigard has petroleum products of some sort in it, and I don't think any oils or petroleum products are really taken well by the ladies, especially in the root zone, especially if any other stresses exist (or they are infected with a virus).

RG: Thank you VERY much for the info. I am opening my perspective to the possibility of spores - this would much better fit the data that the problem does not seem to exist outside my house (plants taken outdoors or to other friends houses do not have it). If this were viral, I would not expect it to magically go away as soon as the plant leaves my house. (Not that badly infected plants suddenly get better - I have only given away "healthy" plants, but the ones I kept from the same round went on to have these problems where the ones given away did not. )

Also: if I remember correctly, two of the most severe outbreaks of the problem seem to be correlated to two times when I accidentally minorly flooded my place. I considered the correlation at one point but dismissed it because the problem existed before the floods and because I had also just done a big multi-ingredient spray, which seemed much more likely to be related than wet floors and walls. -However if this is about spores, it is clear that flooding could easily be related/causal. I am keeping this in mind and will get back with more.

People should also consider Serenade. I have not used it yet but have heard others talk about it. Apparently it is the outright best solution to powdery mildew - it is an organism (Bacilus Subtillus - same as is added to Voodoo Juice, Aqua Shield and other grow products as a biological fungicide). It essentially just takes over everywhere and out-competes any fungi, excreting antibiotics to kill them off.

I think that spraying everything down (whole room + plants) with a pump-sprayer with Serenade mix will be hugely effective if what we are dealing with is fungal. There is also a product called "Fungaflor TR" that is a total-release (bomb) fungicide - seems like this will probably do the same thing with less effort, only: 1)It is single-use 2)It will probably not stay alive and continue to fight fungi like B. Subtilus (at least in soil and other places) 3)I cannot find what is in it anywhere. Either way, if we are dealing with fungal elements, one of those two solutions or the Mycostop RG mentioned will probably be our best approaches.

RG: About the Mycostop - is it just for watering and soaking seeds, or can it be sprayed? Does it stick around (live in the soil? live in hydro/water? die from strong fertilizer?) Does it out-compete fungi, does it incorporate into the plant, or does it just put out fungicide/kill other fungi it contacts?

 

[RetroGrow]

Splee:
I only learned about the Mycostop last night. It can be sprayed. Here's a description from one of the vendors:

"Seed, Soil & Foliar Treatment Contains live strains of soil bacteria (Streptomyces griseoviridis) that colonize plant roots to provide preventative biological protection against fusarium, alternaria, phomopsis, botrytis, phytophthora and pythium. Labeled for use on vegetables, herbs, and ornamentals. Since this is a preventative treatment, it must be used at the time of seeding or transplanting. For seed inoculating, use 2-8 gram/kg of seed; for a soil spray or foliar treatment, use 5 grams per 13 gallons of water, to treat about 250-500 sq ft). Detailed application rates available on request. Do not mix with pesticides or fertilizer solutions. Do not apply to melons. Pesticide I.D.# is required for CA commercial growers."

More:

"Mycostop is based on Streptomyces griseoviridis (strain K61), that is a naturally occurring soil bacterium (order Actinomycetes), not genetically modified.

This specie is able to colonize rapidly plant roots and it is capable to prevent the pathogens attack in several ways: by colonizing plant roots before pathogens may infect them so depriving fungal diseases of space and nourishment or through a direct antagonistic behaviour. Besides, it may act as a growth promoter improving plants development.
Applications and Use

Mycostop is recommended for damping-off, wilt and root diseases, particularly for the control of Fusarium oxysporum and other common soil pathogens (Phytophtora capsici, Pythium ultimum, Pyrenochaeta lycopersici and Verticillium dahliae). It can also be active in preventing and suppressing attacks of Rhizoctonia sp. and Botrytis sp. in different growing circumstances. Depending on crop and condition, Mycostop can be applied to seeds, to the soil, to roots, to transplants, or as a dip or spray. To get advantage of the preventive action it should be applied before the disease organisms is reproducing."

I am going to order this stuff before even attempting another run. It's made in Finland, so guessing some European growers use it. Surprised there's no information here about it. Might be a new product. It's organic and safe to use on food crops. It's a preventative, and will not cure any existing conditions.

Re: Seranade-I have it in my arsenal, and have used it. It's active ingredient is "bacillus subtilis", a biological organism. Strong anti-fungal. I have used it in my room.
About spores: the problem is, once they are in your place, very difficult to eradicate, as they travel through the ventilation system if you have AC, and they are everywhere.It's a tough problem. I will never start another grow without spraying everything down first.
By no means am I certain that this is the problem , or the only problem. Very well could be viral also. One thing I am certain: The RAs and other pests are disease vectors. They are spreading this. And when the plants are weakened, they are susceptible to anything. Since it's known that pythium is spread by fungus gnats, it stands to reason that RAs would also spread it. There are 3 different types of pythium, and they are nasty. Virtually impossible to get rid of, but apparently can be "controlled" to some extent by some products. My hydro guy, who is very knowledgeable, says, if you have pythium, just throw out all your stuff, and find a new location to grow in. Easier said than done sometimes, but may be necessary. Definitely don't want to go through this again.
This is extremely frustrating, not knowing exactly what is going on. I am not giving up though. I have one plant that has managed to dry it's pot out, so I am going to feed that one now and see if it responds. That's only one out of 21 though. The others aren't drinking, or drinking very little. Hoping for improvement, but getting a bit bummed out by this.

Here's a great link on Mycostop usage:
http://www.verdera.fi/gb_ohje.pdf

 

[RetroGrow]

Here is an excellent link on beneficials and preventatives:

http://www.rinconvitova.com/inoculan.htm

 

[RetroGrow]

About pythium:

SYMPTOMS

Pythium attacks juvenile tissues such as the root tip. After gaining entrance to the root the fungus may cause a rapid, black rot of the entire primary root and may even move up into the stem tissue. As the soil dries, new roots may be produced and the plant may recover or never show symptoms of disease. Under wet conditions brought about by poor soil drainage or excess irrigation, more and more roots are killed and the plant may wilt, stop growing, or even collapse and die. Bulbs of susceptible plants turn black, gradually desiccate, and form a hard mummy.
COMMENTS ON THE DISEASE

The pathogens that are responsible for Pythium root rot, also known as water mold, are present in practically all cultivated soils and attack plant roots under wet conditions. These fungi can be spread by fungus gnats and shore flies. There are many species of Pythium; a few of these species are beneficial in that they compete with or parasitize the pathogenic species. Of the many pathogenic species, some have limited host ranges while others, such as Pythium ultimum, have very wide host ranges. Some Pythium species, such as P. aphanidermatum, are pathogens only at high temperatures (above 77°F), and some are active only at low soil temperatures. Soil moisture conditions of 70% or higher are conducive to infection by Pythium. Soil from a given field may contain several pathogenic Pythium species.

Pythium speciesform several types of spores but not all species form all types. Zoospores, which are produced in sporangia, are motile in water. Oospores, which result from a sexual process, usually undergo a period of dormancy and can withstand long periods of drying. Some species also form chlamydospores, which are asexual and have thick cell walls. These structures can serve as resting structures. Sporangia and zoospores in general do not survive in air or dry soil for long periods of time. ELISA test kits are available for detecting Pythium.
MANAGEMENT

In the control of Pythium diseases, emphasis is placed on providing good drainage and water management. Steam (at 140°F for 30 minutes), solarize (double-tent at 160°F for 30 minutes or 140°F at 1 hour), or chemically treat growing medium. Sanitation is important because Pythium spp. can survive in dust, planting medium, or soil particles on greenhouse floors and in flats and pots. Remove and discard diseased plants. Use of properly composted pine bark at 20% in a potting mixture is reported to provide some control of Pythium and Phytophthora root rots; also the mycoparasite, Gliocladium virens, is used as a Pythium biocontrol agent. For flower production in open fields, solarization in warmer climates has been successful for control of damping off in many crops. Reports of inadequate control of some high temperature species (e.g. P. aphanidermatum) have been made. Solarization and steaming are acceptable for organic production.

Note: wet conditions bring it out.
Note to Goddess: Steam is one treatment!
Note: ELISA test kits are available for detecting Pythium.
Excellent link on testing!!!:
http://homeorchard.ucdavis.edu/8002.pdf

Where to get test kits:

SOME SUPPLIERS AND DISTRIBUTORS
Agdia, Inc.
30380 County Road 6
Elkhart, IN 46514
phone: 1-800-622-4342 or (219) 264-2014
World Wide Web: http://www.agdia.com
Gempler’s, Inc.
211 Blue Mounds Road
P.O. Box 270
Mt. Horeb, WI 53572
phone: 1-800-382-8473 or (608) 437-4883
World Wide Web: http://www.gemplers.com
Neogen Corporation
620 Lesher Place
Lansing, MI 48912
phone: 1-800-234-5333 or (517) 372-9200
World Wide Web: http://www.neogen.com
UC IPM WORLD WIDE WEB S I T E
University of California Statewide IPM Project
World Wide Web: http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu

 

[smokesalot420]

So we are fighting a pest that carries viruses and diseases, eats the roots and deposits a waxy secretion on the roots (presumably blocking the feeding/drinking/uptake of oxygen) that allows the growth of sooty mold, weakens the plant and reduces vigor which invites other pests to come along and attack the injured plant? Sounds like we're in for a long fight.... and that's not even talking about their life-cycle!

 

[RetroGrow]

Pythium video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClhO1Q-ErQ

 

[spleebale]

Updates:

The signs that had recently been creeping in my closet have slowed or halted. I attribute it to one of three things, in decreasing order of likelihood: A)Recent use of Bayer CIK again - thought bugs were gone but recent posts from others made me think again B)Watering with low-CalMg plain-water [I had been watering regularly with either nutrients or teas and regularly with Liquid Karma with most waterings and they are in FFOF soil only a few weeks since transplanting - so I was probably giving them a nutrient overdose, which may have caused symptoms - though they were not merely classic tip-burning, there was a bit of that as well.] C)Spraying with Bud Factor X (on some) and Foliar BLOOM (on others) - their immunity may have been boosted to combat the problem (though the one that looked the worst looked its worst ever just after the spray). I actually think that it is probably a combination of all three in decreasing order of significance to the symptoms I was seeing.

RG: I do not have a super-powerful scope. I did look at many different necrotic tissue areas (as necrosis shows up in random places in at least three or 4 distinct ways), using a jeweler's loupe, but was not able to recognize anything that looked fungal. How high does magnification need to be to see it, do you think? Is it possible that you were looking at trichomes or cystolith hairs, or were the filaments clearly different from anything else? Keep in mind that once the tissue dies, it is no longer guarded by the plant - it is open ground for anything, so if the conditions are right, it is possible that a fungus could occupy the necrotic spot afterward and not have actually caused the spot. But if you can get us more info about that, it would be really good.

For now I am not thinking my problem is based on a fungus in the leaves, though I am leaving that possibility open. One way to get a good idea would be to spray half the plants with a normal foliar spray, then add Aqua Shield or another B Subtilus product (serenade?) or a good beneficial tea and spray the other half and see if there is a difference in the progression of the problem. I may try this and I encourage anyone else with continuing leaf necrosis to try the same.

 

[spleebale]

Can someone check up on the type of systemic that imid is? Some systemics are local (only in tissues it was directly applied to) while others are able to diffuse throughout the plant. I get the impression that imid is not this latter type, because no matter how much of it I use (as a root application), it does not seem to bother the spider mites whatsoever (I see almost no response in reduction of numbers or noticeable dead bodies). This leads me to believe that very little, if any of the imid is transferred from the root tissues where it is absorbed into the leaf tissues. If this is the case, it is more than likely there would not be significant quantities of imid in the buds either.

Note that most agricultural use of imid (even with tobacco) is typically as a foliar application, where it will be absorbed directly into the tissues that are being harvested. I think it is very important that we sort this out. If imid is a local systemic, then we should be fine using it at high concentrations well into bloom; however if it trans-locates through all tissues, it would be best not to use it in bloom at all - clearly this is an important thing to know. Can someone look into this???

 

[RetroGrow]

Imid is absorbed by the plant, and plant tissues then become poisonous to insects. It is absorbed both foliarly, and through the roots. It's very much like the stuff given to dogs to kill fleas. It stays in their system and the fleas die after biting the host, breaking their life cycle. Anyone who has dogs knows that if you have several dogs with fleas, giving the medicine to just one of them will eventually rid all the dogs of fleas. I'm thinking of giving Imid to one (or more) plant in each grow from the start as a preventative measure. I don't ever want to go through this again
From the bottle:
" This product is a totally different way to control the insects that want to destroy your prized roses, flowers, other ornamental plants, and lawn.

The unique two-way blend of insecticides controls current insect pest problems and prevents reinfestations for up to 30 days. The residual component is actually taken into the plant. Rain or water cannot wash off this internal protection!
Insects are killed when they come into contact with the product or when they attempt to eat the plant."

Check out this awesome mini microscope for $5 shipped. It is tiny, but it really works because of the bright light it has:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.22831

 

[spleebale]

So I did a little bit of lookup (check it out yourself if you want using the terms "imidacloprid" "systemic" and/or "translaminar") and found that imid is indeed a true systemic (moves into the Xylem and is transported to other tissues) but does not have any effect on spider mites or nematodes (http://www.hdcchem.com/Imidacloprid.html). Treatment of the roots should control leaf aphids as well, though.

Since imid is a true systemic I must re-iterate recent warnings to NOT use this stuff into bloom. Tobacco PHIs (days after treatment before harvesting) for imid are 50 days, and that is at moderate dosage (probably significantly less than the 50 mL/gal Bayer Complete Insect Killer I have recommended). The larger the dose the more/longer it will stay around (note that 50 days is just when levels are considered acceptable - not when "all the pesticide is gone" - which is not a real point after you have used it).

Imidacloprid is just for VEG.

One thing I did find, however, that is a good indicator of its relative safety is this: "After oral administration of methylene- 14 C- and 4,5-imidazolidine- 14 C-labelled imidacloprid to rats, the radioactivity was quickly and almost completely absorbed from the gastro-intestinal tract and quickly eliminated (96% within 48 hours, mainly via the urine)."

(Using radioactively marked imid the substance was 96% eliminated from an animals system 48 hrs after ingestion) - good to know. Don't eat imid, though.

 

[Norkali]

I found a couple survivors and never ended up using the Merit (Imid) but since then I have gotten nasturtiums and Pyganic II (5% pyrethrum) and am sure I have them under control. The Pyganic was damn expensive ($150/quart) but it will give me protection against spider mites for sure (lol) while nailing these little fuckers (if I want to spray with it I mean, am using as a drench currently). I hit them at 40ml/gallon. initially (in with with 30ml/gallon Azatrol) and then a week later at 20ml/gallon (just Pyganic) to make sure no eggs hatched/survived.

I see no crawlers once again, the reason for my re-infestation were my perlite-cup-cuts that stayed in the room during the massive cull of the infested plants, some made it into the perlite obviously. Couple weeks ago, I got rid of those perlite cuts and triple checked my other plants/rapid rooters...so far so clean 2-3 weeks later.

I plan on hitting the nasturtiums with the Merit (got it, might as well use it somehow, safely) once they get big enough. These aphids are naturally more attracted to nasturtiums and will leave the cannabis plants to go to the nasturtiums, in theory of course., where they will die from the Merit.

 

[humble1]

I'm really curious about whether this host-plant concept with the nasturtiums is fully effective.
Please keep us updated!

 

[Speedcat]

diatomaceous earth, notonly will it make your plant fell STIFF as fuck, It will destroy an insect in the soil and is compleatly safe as it is of fossilized remains of diatoms, a type of hard-shelled algae that is razor sharp and indigestable by bugs, It is mined from aceint ocean beds and pulverized into a powder finer than flour. it will penetrate their soft exoskeleton. You can use it on veg stage also for our plants. It is 80-90 percent silica so it is very beneficial to our plants. I toss it on the top soil and water threw every transplant.

 

[Centrum]

okay so after the first round of the Imidacloprid things where looking good.
I noticed these things are laying the webbing like eggs on top now around the base of the plant stalk. Persistant Mo fo's !
I just got a watering wand filled up 25 gallons and hit everything really good!
Time will tell.

 

[medmaker420]

I had some fungus gnats and did the mosquito dunks and within the week I saw a HUGE reduction and no fliers anymore. Switched out the soil and yelled at it a bit and hope to finish off the rest of the fucks within the week.

fuckin bugs sure cause headaches.

 

[phatsesh]

the best thing to do is start over. clean house a dixie cup will have over 10,000 fuckers by the time they fly and eggs and if you dont kill them all. ive had them for three runs and im fed up but i have learned ways to still have decent harvests.

well any way i found that no pest strips will keep the amount of flyers way down but wont elimnate them cause it cant penetrate the soil hence eggs new flyers everyday but it helps, soil drenches keep activity low for a week or so but it never gets em all. then theyre back. letting the pots dry has seemed to work well to slow population growth after an infestation and drenches or before infestation and that de helps alot especially mixed in and as it dries out.

well im gonna just take cuts and kepp them in double smart pots in the garage where its cold for a couple weeks clean the rooms steam the carpets for eggs that fall or whatever, ive been baking my soil (this sucks) and im ready to finally rid myself of these pests that dont want to leave. and the thing about those flowers is that they attract the bugs if you dont have them already and what about the stray who dont like them sounds scary to me. and super bugs that dont want to die anymore.

hold em back til your crop is done and start over or youll just continue fighting.

in socal it would get to 120 degrees outside in mid summer and it didnt really effect the plants. what if you could heat the pots to around that temp it shhould cause the bugs to become uncomfortable and surface not to mention the possibvility of sterilizing the females reproduction, and with co2 the plants should handle it well, perhaps ill try after every thing is ready for the new room i already have the infested plants that will die anyway. im thinking to increase the temps i will shut off ac and wrap pots in a heating blanket, any suggestions?

 

[RetroGrow]

Agreed. Starting over after an infestation is the way to go.
Might even have to change location if possible.
I think soil makes the problem worse, relative to coco.

 

[J R]

I would suggest you use SEVIN as directed, only as a pour in the soil, coco or rez. Do not spray on plants..you will see it is used on various veggies, but, do not spray on plants
It may kill both root aphids and larvae of fungus gnats.

It is NOT systemic and relatively short lived.

Your lungs will not like imid in the long run.

 

[Neo 420]

It may kill both root aphids and larvae of fungus gnats.

It is NOT systemic and relatively short lived.

Your lungs will not like imid in the long run.

Can anyone else share the experience SEVIN? JR please explain "may kill RA and FG"?

 

[J R]

You need to do your research and testing yourself. Keep in mind you will be smoking the herbs. SEVIN works for me...it may work for you.
I encourage you to do your own research on safety of use.

I did the research for IMID and thru it aside. But, hey, you like that shit in yo lungs....go for it.