Mossy's BW: Use the feminine male(s)???

[ChynaRyder]

Stop your headaches COLD instead of willfully propagating them.

I hear what you are saying, but I view this as an opportunity to answer some questions...and that alone. I realize the potential problems that can occur, and these genes will never be any more than entertainment for my inquisitive mind...The MJ botany book would not be spreading wrong or damaging info, and I think there may be something to this. None of the Females are showing any herm traits, and I have been deliberately stressing them with drought, irregular photoperiod, and cold nighttime temps in order to get them to throw a banana...and they wont, or at least not yet. If indeed this 'herm' trait is limited only to the males, and the progeny of their mating take on a decided lean towards being female, then this is something worth exploring to me.

Mossy - It sounds to me like DC was already heterozygous for flowering photeperiod...it has to be, unless we throw out all that was assumed to be known about the autoflowering trait....What I struggle with is why a Tom Hill genetic would be this way...Unless your DC lines picked up the af gene somewhere in the HTC process...I will be doing some crosses here soon with congo, c-99, and blueberry to af...will let you know in July/August the af% in the F1, but my early money is on 0.

 

[arcticsun]

DJ Short has recently speculated that Ruderalis introductions into the drug cannabis gene pool likely came from repeated selections for early flowering traits from Indica based lines rather than actually being imported from Russia or surrounding countries (CC#39, Breeding Tips). Both of these scenarios are quite possible. General consensus is that all drug, hemp and feral strains of cannabis originated from the same source gene pool, therefore, Indica varieties would also have these auto-flower genes present somewhere in their genetic makeup.

http://cannabisculture.com/articles/3033.html

Im just consorting a longer post to account for some type of explanation on how it has come to be that the autoflowering trait is present in the afghan genepool.

 

[vicious bee]

This is very interesting. I had a Blue Streak that male hermied. Look at the difference between it, on the left, and a normal B.S. , on the right, which was representative of the size of all the others. Big difference.

Here's a close up. You can see the female flowers in the lower right.

It was a really impressive plant. I made a very small amount of seeds and saved a small amount of pollen just in case. I asked quite a few people whether I should breed with it or not. Most said no. There is some indication that males that hermi to female may be better to breed with. I had communication with one person who said that breeding with hermi males gave him more females. Another person said he got more males. What to do? There's a paper uploaded on another site called
(SOME ASPECTS OF SEX DETERMINISM IN HEMP 2007_Anale_GBM_VIII_f2_l07)
that covers this subject. First, at the beginning of the paper it says,"Cannabis sativa L. is one of the best studied species under the aspect of genetic determinism of the
sex, but the problem is not yet entirely deciphered. The opinions are different, sometimes contradictory.
Thus, the hemp is included, according to some authors, in the category of plants with male heterogamy,
whereas the others sustain the idea of a complex sex determinism, seen as resultant of interaction between
individual hereditary potencies and the environmental factors. "

Later on it says , and I think this is key,"

(Rath, 1968) suggested the existence of masculinizing or feminizing genes that, by recombinations, could
replace the XY mechanism and become predominant and able to induce, for example in the case of
masculinizing genes, the appearance of male individuals in the groups of different sexual types. In the
opinion of Rath, these genes are placed on autosomes.
(Frankel and Galun, 1977) affirm that the males are X/Y, and the females are X/X. Besides that, the allele
Xm exists, that determines the appearence of male flowers in female inflorescence. Thus, X/Xm plants have
female inflorescence, but they can be not strictly females. Depending on genetic and non-genetic additional
factors, these plants tend to masculinization, reason for which Kőhler named them “subgynoecious”. The
Xm/Xm plants will have female inflorescence, but functionally are males. Considering the results obtained in
various studies on polyploids by other researchers, Kőhler concluded that the masculinizing genes are
autosomal and they are balanced by femaleness carrying genes of X chromosome, while the Y chromosome
is “empty” under the aspect of sex determining genes.
Analysing these arguments and hypotheses, the following models were established:
- male plants with male inflorescence: X/Y, Xm/Y;
- male plants with female inflorescence, Xm/Xm;
- variable phenotypes, from true females to monoecious plants, but all with female
inflorescence, Xm/X;
- female plants with inflorescence of female type, X/X. "

(Rath, R.L., 1968. Essais sur le rapport entre les types végétatifs et sexuels du chanvre monoïque. Communication
présentée au Symposium du Lin et du Chanvre, 25-29 juin 1968, Dresde. )
(Frankel, R., Galun, E., 1977. Pollination mechanisms, reproduction and plant breeding, Springer-Verlag, Berlin
Heidelberg New York. )

This would make sense and would explain a lot. It's like an extra chromosome that controls the amount of maleness or femaleness.
If someone will tell me how to upload a .pdf document I will upload the paper.

 

[mossy]

ChynaRyder..when I said results in the DC AF crossonly..I forgot about these.
I made the BASE cross in season 08.
F1's (small test) in 09 gave AF's on both crosses @ F1.
the 2 ringed girls are the AF Bettys..and the small pot is Whore AF.

Trouble is these are even more complicated..because I have JEM non-af..AND JEM af's in them. ..(so I could have a double perpensity)
I'll explain them for you if you are interested.

The MJ botany book would not be spreading wrong or damaging info

That was my thinking too.

Unless your DC lines picked up the af gene somewhere in the HTC process

I'll double check with the donor..but I'm pretty certain saying not knowingly..I will mail you on the point.

arcticsun..I picked up something similar in the DJ Short grow book..your ref looks as if it May be more comprehensive..I will investigate.
My book says that AF's were introduced 1984/86 ish and were not well received..but people interbred..giving them an Out into the wider gene-pool
(A Hunch says to me the Afghan rather than Indy..but I couldn't explain it to you..just something that has bugged me all the way along with AF's...)
so looking at your link might persuade me otherwise..because as I say..I have been indy strengthening all the way along..it could be either.

vicious bee...cracking photo.
People need to be able to recognise hermies when they see them.
I had only seen drawings in the grow books..so when I saw my first..
I didn't recognise it for what it was.

I saw My First in LowRyder#1....
That is part of the reason I think it will be widespread in AF genetics..and will show up if conditions are right.
(Think of the number of crosses that have been made with LR#1)

but the problem is not yet entirely deciphered. The opinions are different, sometimes contradictory

.
Yup..

This would make sense and would explain a lot. It's like an extra chromosome that controls the amount of maleness or femaleness

I find it so interesting.
I wonder if we could pick up any additional info stepping away from canna studies only.
I know that it can occur in humans..so I wonder if there is more homework there..maybe more answers.
I shall have a google about when I feel better.

 

[mossy]

Ah arcticsun..that link MAN...

Just what I always wanted...

I'm SO grateful.

something that has been bugging me for years has just gone Click..
and I actually feel a great sense of relief.

Cheers m8..I love your homework. :yay:

Hmmmm..not sure..BUT..
the JEM has been rolled to be ultra indy..
(it works best for me for meds..)
the DC traits I was after were ultra indy..
so there is always the possibility
I just haven't seen That possibility mentioned...anywhere..

whoop-di-bloody-do....:yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:

 

[mossy]

Hey guys....just a Funny thought..this "non-af af"...

does anybody think there is a possibility that the crossing of Long season girls..to AF's
has actually Created a 3rd species of cannabis.....?
Not full AF but not Long season either...a non-af af

I have this anomoly in my grow. I spotted it on my first AF's...

I defined it as Fast Flower. (FF)..(not quite AF)

It is not like a long season girl at all but it has remarkable similarities to AF...
except it is Big..

It has rapid growth..reaches sex at about 28-35 days.
Flowers on the Symetric..like AF's
Goes straight into accelerated budding..like AF's
finishes very early..Not light dependant...like AF
Will flower on an 18/6 light schedule
and seems to ignore the usual seasonal triggers associated with long season grows.

(I THINK it may be the non-af af's that you are talking about being ripped off
with.)

What do you think

Have We just found a Missing Link..:woohoo

mmmmm......

Quote from your link...

General consensus is that all drug, hemp and feral strains of cannabis originated from the same source gene pool, therefore, Indica varieties would also have these auto-flower genes present somewhere in their genetic makeup.

However, the potential for great advances is also there for the taking. How about auto-flowering Haze strains that ripen in the middle of summer, in areas where previously even the earliest Indicas would not ripen in time? Commercial growers could pull two crops per summer without ever having to worry about shading

quote from my thread

Don't know about you..but if I can get a cut down WET weight of nearly
800g's in approx 13 weeks..
(3 weeks longer than the AF's from the same cross took)
with AF "tendencies"..ie..it Ignores the usual seasonal prompts..
I wanna Pin it.
It will certainly be a part of my grow

.

 

[HookaHittaH]

damn some very interesting stuff going on in here guys..

 

[vicious bee]

On "non-af af". I'm mostly heard them called semi-autos or light sensitive strains. Most of the Danish, Finnish, and high latitude Canadian strains are like this. They have to grow a few months then will flower as long as the light period is below 16 hours. Crosses with Mighty Mite usually result in a strain that is finished the last of August to the first of September.

 

[mossy]

FIN314 seeds that accidentally germinated in a Quebec farmer's field in early April were found in full flower by early June.

Cheers vicious bee..mighty mite is mentioned in the link...
but the fin314 sounds more like the one I picked up.
Planted early march finished early june.

I know she was Special..but I was thinking it was from the Afghan connection..
Arcticsun and his link has persuaded me that it May be the Indica connection.
(It May also explain my high AF dominance in my rolls)

Check the dates on the photos...APRIL

That is her in the middle..the ones around her are the Traditional AF's.

Just over a month later...MAY

Ultra Indy.

that is a standard 12 inch plastic plate behind her head to give an idea of size..
Accelerated bud formation/maturation.

I took her down at less than 13 weeks from germ..

Point of interest..She is the Mom of my Black AF..the one in my avatar photo..

Analysing these arguments and hypotheses, the following models were established:
- male plants with male inflorescence: X/Y, Xm/Y;
- male plants with female inflorescence, Xm/Xm;
- variable phenotypes, from true females to monoecious plants, but all with female
inflorescence, Xm/X;
- female plants with inflorescence of female type, X/X. "

Stunning info...if ChynaRyder gets his cross..it is going to make his genetic calculations Very interesting.

CR..sorry for the hi-jack m8..once I get yapping I forget who's thread I am in.

 

[arcticsun]

wooow lots of info, thats great, im a bit stoned atm I may have to "meditate" on this for a while for a comprehensive answer lol.. It is maybe a subject for a new topic, lots of stuff to discuss.


Thank you a million times yourself mossy, you have provided me with an equal missing link aswell that puts a shitload of things into perspective.
All the info posted is fantastic, I see you've been hard at studying the last cpl of days

I shall have to go through all of it again and see if I can find further reference points. But great work my brother, its fantastic to have such inspiration and support when diving into the great unknown, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us its extremely inspirational and greatly informative.





Ive got some thoughts on topic aswell, about the "m" chromosome.. Ive explored the problems related to hermies and XY chromosomes by way of simple mathematics in my Auto Orgy thread, ill go find that and we can try to work the math. It shouldnt be to hard.

 

[mossy]

Ive got some thoughts on topic aswell, about the "m" chromosome.. Ive explored the problems related to hermies and XY chromosomes by way of simple mathematics in my Auto Orgy thread, ill go find that and we can try to work the math. It shouldnt be to hard

I always say that breeding comes down to simple maths..if you can count to four you can do it....

but I looked at that permeatation and though..wow..we've just stepped up to Algebra..

But..I think it is just cause my head ain't up to full speed yet.
We will suss it.

wooow lots of info, thats great, im a bit stoned atm I may have to "meditate" on this for a while

Sounds Good to me..

Another factor contributing to the desirability of the indoor Indica was its truebreeding "dioecious" nature, meaning that individual plants tend to be male or female only, but not both. In contrast, many Sativa strains show hermaphroditic tendencies indoors, with male and female flowers on the same plant. (It is my opinion that wild Sativa strains of cannabis are primarily truebreeding hermaphroditic varieties.)

It would only take a few generations for the ugly Rudy phenotypes to begin expressing themselves. By ugly, I am referring to a strong lack of potency and/or desirability. I know, I was once guilty of the practice myself. It did not take me long to realize that this was a huge mistake in regard to the quality and potency of the future generations' finished product, and all subsequent breeding along this line was ceased.

Many of these manipulated rudies were released on the open market between 1981 and 1986. It was shortly after this period that the grow journals of the era (Sinsemilla Tips and High Times) ran articles about the possibility of a new wonder variety for indoor grows: fast blooming Ruderalis. Rumor had spread to myth and misnomer. Therefore, it may be more appropriate to say that the Ruderalis phenotype was coaxed from Indica genetics, via the indoor breeding environment.

Guess he ain't keen on Rudy eh!

 

[bird]

very interesting. i too am workin with a reverse male. showed last year and i used him. this year ive got 1 reverse, 5 true fem and 5 male. but theres 11 more yet to show ohh and the plants the reverse came from was a dc cross

 

[mossy]

Cheers bird..all info on hermies greatly appreciated....
got any photos..?

ohh and the plants the reverse came from was a dc cross

Yup..we picked that up when we were doing the homework on the DC.
Not so much that the Pure DC has a problem..but it seems to throw it up in the Crosses.
I must admit..apart from the set I think I have just hermied out due to conditions..I haven't had many problems with them..
BUT that could be because I hit them with an Ultra Indy and made my selections on that.

arcticsun...I was lying in bed at 3.30 this morning when I sudenly thought WORMS.....
There are male and female worms..and all things being equal..they meet up..do the dirty and reproduce in the Normal way..
BUT...
If the female doesn't meet a male..the female can develop male characteristics and fertilise her self.
A-sexual reproduction.

Now..a plant has a blue print to grow..reproduce itself and die.

IF we run them for BUD only..we are stopping that process..
so..is she producing the hermie in an attempt to fulfill her blue-print.

Unless we Force it out due to conditions...

do the non-seeded ones have a higher incidence of hermies..because they are trying to complete their life cycle and we are stopping them...

It could be a very advanced genetic safeguard..rather than the pain in the ar*e we normally think it is.

 

[ChynaRyder]

Now..a plant has a blue print to grow..reproduce itself and die.

IF we run them for BUD only..we are stopping that process..
so..is she producing the hermie in an attempt to fulfill her blue-print.

Unless we Force it out due to conditions...

do the non-seeded ones have a higher incidence of hermies..because they are trying to complete their life cycle and we are stopping them...

It could be a very advanced genetic safeguard..rather than the pain in the ar*e we normally think it is.

What you are describing is what Soma called rodelization I believe, or somatization...reproduction is the imperative, nothing else...

Let an unseeded fem go long enough she eventually throws some nanners and seeds herself, perpetuating the genetic...perfect...beautiful system.

the 2 ladyboys are outside and actually doing pretty good...seed is present on them, primarily from selfing, but there may be a bit from crossing eachother. If I can keep them from getting hammered in the snow coming tonight, the seeds will get a chance to grow in a protected spot....the results will be interesting to be sure.

the cross of lady boy to true female has also been successfull, and the seeds are cooking.

to date, no sign of staminate flowers on any of the 4 fems cruising along now.

I have a pakistan ryder going now...was hoping it would show semi-auto traits, but alas, no. Worked it down slow from 20 hours light through to 16, and nothing beyond preflowers, now at 12/12 she is starting to bloom. I would have scrapped her, but she actually looks quite good, and is the easiest cloning plant I have ever dealt with. Im high, and not sure how this relates...I once heard some speculation on the paki ryders and afghan ryders being semi auto...

Shall be an interesting summer on the mountain top

 

[mossy]

Let an unseeded fem go long enough she eventually throws some nanners and seeds herself, perpetuating the genetic...perfect...beautiful system.

Weeeelll...it sure puts a different perspective on a "Problem" genetic doesn't it...

the 2 ladyboys are outside and actually doing pretty good...seed is present on them, primarily from selfing, but there may be a bit from crossing eachother. If I can keep them from getting hammered in the snow coming tonight, the seeds will get a chance to grow in a protected spot....the results will be interesting to be sure.

the cross of lady boy to true female has also been successfull, and the seeds are cooking

:yay: woowser..double wammy...
now we can see what Both of them do..and the genetic differences they bring..

I'm drooling.

I have a pakistan ryder going now

What is in it..I have just asked Zombo the same thing.
He has photos..and she looks for all the world to me like the round Fat budded Afghan pheno I So admire..

Shall be an interesting summer on the mountain top

Yup....

 

[ChynaRyder]

What is in it..I have just asked Zombo the same thing.
He has photos..and she looks for all the world to me like the round Fat budded Afghan pheno I So admire..

according to the breeder, it is a pakistani landrace x lowryder...looks very afghan to me. I will put some pics up of her, but she's a beauty...100% success on clones rooted with only Saliva. If she is the winner I think, I am gonna self her and see what else comes out...early aroma is Sandalwood and juicy fruit . Unfortunately she came from a fem seed, so I have doubts about breeding her.

 

[mossy]

looks very afghan to me

Yup..she had that effect on me too..first time I saw a photo of her this morning

And..you do know that you are sitting with AF Afghan Bombs there don't you...

Sandalwood and juicy fruit

Sandalwood is probably the rich round pheno I normally associate with LR.
Mid tones..promiseof thickness..seems to Enhance and intensify everything you cross her with.
I always think Patchouli in my mind when I smell it..Rich and spicey
but I am Old school..and I can still remember hippies..
and patchouli.
Should round the juicey fruit nicely.

Just thinking..IF DJ is right about the hermie Belonging to Sati only..
the increase in the amount of hermies you see as you go through your Rolls..
could indicate an increasing Sati dominance..
(as well as the other indicators..)
Could be useful as a TOOL...

I knew I'd find a USE for it....

 

[ChynaRyder]

And..you do know that you are sitting with AF Afghan Bombs there don't you...

Oh yea! hit her once with an af, and the F1 will be very interesting....I just need the af...I have not stabilized any of my af stable yet, but this summer will take care of that AF afghan bombs away winter 2010

I always think Patchouli in my mind when I smell it..Rich and spicey
but I am Old school..and I can still remember hippies..
and patchouli.

well m8, as an aging deadhead, i should tell you that I spent many a summer living in a microbus and bathing with patchouli...

Just thinking..IF DJ is right about the hermie Belonging to Sati only..
the increase in the amount of hermies you see as you go through your Rolls..
could indicate an increasing Sati dominance..
(as well as the other indicators..)
Could be useful as a TOOL...

I knew I'd find a USE for it....

Interesting thoughts...I have been considering the Somatization phenomenon....I have not tried it much, but it seems to work when tried, but I cannot generalize to ALL canna...But, it would appear that most canna is programed to hermie when needed...it is a useful tool, and nature always conserves useful tools...are hormone responses/levels more in control of sexual expression than genetic predisposition???? I have so much reading to do in other areas, that I have not explored this much...so my thinking may be totally flawed...

 

[mossy]

I just need the af...I have not stabilized any of my af stable yet,

(A)fghan (L)ittle (F)u*K......ALF....

And you Know what AF %'s I have been getting in the crosses out of them...

Have a great weekend m8..

 

[Zombo]

according to the breeder, it is a pakistani landrace x lowryder...looks very afghan to me. I will put some pics up of her, but she's a beauty...100% success on clones rooted with only Saliva. If she is the winner I think, I am gonna self her and see what else comes out...early aroma is Sandalwood and juicy fruit . Unfortunately she came from a fem seed, so I have doubts about breeding her.

Yeah, I'd like to see pix of your Pakistan Ryder, mines at day 49 from seed, and is filling out wonderfully