How many plants must you select from to not be a "hack"

[Thundurkel]

So lately it's been bugging me seeing and hearing folks on here and other forums called hacks and pollen chuckers and those strains are what's fucking up the community ect. I've seen what can be done and read the story's about how certain elites were made and found and I believe you truly don't need to select from 100's of plants to be a successful breeder and to find keepers. I feel one could use a base of 20 or less even and be able to lock down certain traits over time with selective breeding ect how do you all feel about this? It'd be great to hear from the breeders here and testers cuz I have no problem testing new gear if the parents used were good and I'll probably find some gems and find non keepers too. Just curious what makes one a hack cuz I saw it asked in another thread but didn't want to get that one of track so figured it'd be good to discuss...

 

[bombadil.360]

if what you want is to make seeds for your own use in order to grow herb, then whatever you do is fine.

but if you want to make seed to preserve a line, or stabilize a plant that can be considered "true breeding" material, you will need thousands of plants, coming from seeds that have been also bred by thousands of plants in order to ensure the passing on of the whole 'genetic pool'.

why is there a need to pass on as much of the 'genetic pool' as possible? because of a variety of reasons, such as many different pheno and chemo types, disease resistance, vigor and to avoid what is termed as 'bottle necking', which is akin to first cousins having kids with genetic problems, so to speak.

this boils down to the fact that if you use few plants to make a hybrid or poly hybrid, then each successive generation of in-breeding will lower the genetic variety within the line, until problems start to arise, like lack of vigor, lack of potency, etc...

being a real breeder is truly difficult.

making good seed to grow good herb from for personal use, is a reachable goal.

but the two are not the same.

be good

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

99% of all commercial F1 hybrids have a very small number of parents. Breeding is all about selection. Most commercial varieties are F1 hybrids which is why variation shows up in masse in the F2 generation. C99 is one example of a spectacular polyhybrid line which originated from only two parents but is now a reliably true breeding line. Quality of parent is way more important than mere numbers games. after all the first seed you germ may surpass the next 1000 relative to traits you are interested in selecting for.

Preservation of landraces like bombadil is speaking of is a different subject entirely. I think landraces/ibls are best open pollenated in large numbers after culling 'weaknesses'.

 

[SOTF420]

I think it really depends on the genetics you are starting to begin with, some are already inbred and stabilized to have far less variation where as many landraces have tons of different phenos and expressions possible and are from OP fields going back many generations. You would really have to be more specific strain-wise and know the history of the strain and who bred it before, etc. I know for a fact that Breeder Steve worked with thousands of plants in Switzerland to choose from and thus his genetics are fantastic for making crosses, etc. as he was a master of selection for good true breeding traits.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

You might also do some searching... I know I've participated at length in this same discussion here on multiple occasions.

 

[bombadil.360]

using a couple of parents to make seed can be ok so long as one is always using the exact same two parents; that is, you have a great mother of X variety, and a great father of Y variety, and you keep these genes by either having them under artificial lights or taking cuts each time.

so the resulting seeds will always be "f1" (if the parents are p1 and p2 though, if not, it will be a poly hybrid and not really a f1)

but, if you use the resulting seeds from those two parents and start to inbreed them (f1 x f1, then f2 x f2, etc...), then, such presents the already mentioned bottle-necking problems far down the line. unless one always adds a new source of genetic material to the mix, but this will result in unstabilized poly hybrids. (which is not necessarily bad, depends on what you do with it)

preservation of the gene-pool and breeding should not be set too apart either imo, so it is always wise to pass on all the information on how a seed batch was made in order to provide with facts the end-user.

be good

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

using a couple of parents to make seed can be ok so long as one is always using the exact same two parents

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

preservation of the gene-pool and breeding should not be set too apart either imo, so it is always wise to pass on all the information on how a seed batch was made in order to provide with facts the end-user.

be good

Not set apart... but different goals necessitate different strategies.
Transparency concerning methods for deriving a line is a good thing.

 

[bombadil.360]

Not set apart... but different goals necessitate different strategies.
Transparency concerning methods for deriving a line is a good thing.

I can agree with that, sure thing.

peace

 

[Thundurkel]

Oh wow! I didn't even know anything was going on in here till I got a +rep for it, for some reason it wasn't showing up in my subscribed spot like usual when I make a thread. But yea very informative stuff guys. Honestly right now for genetics I have some crosses from a private breeder who used a Crystal Trident dad from a pack of Bodhi Seeds and says the dad was pretty transparent adding resin and reports of the moms traits were what showed up the most. I have Blue Dream x CT, Blue Razzberry x CT, Urkle x CT, and Afrweck x CT and the CT is Afgooey x SourD IBL.... I think I could find some cool parents in these to play with wouldn't you?

 

[B. Friendly]

if you only have a few to work with than that's your lot. a hack is more of someone who has no interest in stabilizing their lines and just crosses. Take the time to bring out the qualities and have the patients for this, then you're not a hack.
Kinda the difference between a pro and a shmoe
or it's like a one hit music wonder. if you hit and move on, hit and move on, you're more of a style biter.

 

[Thundurkel]

Being the small space kinda person I am I would start out with finding some males that have keeper traits following Shantibabba's guide. I would then make a few crosses and send them out as freebies and hopefully find a few testers and then use the peoples real world feedback being all rooms are different. I would then go back and grow out some more of those seeds and look for the traits the folks like the most in some new males and then hit the original moms again and send em to the testers again. I think after doing that 2 or 3 times I'd know what the people and I like most within the genetics and work on stabilizing it. Sound like a good plan?

 

[FlyingLow]

I agree with everyone that says selection is very important. You need to grow out at least a 100 of a particular strain, to see the different / special phenos, IMHO. Keeping cuts of the best ones, until you have a small stable to breed with.

 

[3dDream]

I assume you would not call yourself a hack so then it would only be the opinion of others that you would be worried about? I suggest you do what you can and enjoy the process.

I do like Thundurkel's idea of using icmag as your testbed.

Good luck!

 

[englishrick]

breeders learn in stages

we all start off as "polen chuckers",,,,,

then we read a book on breeding and become amature breeder,,,,,

topclass breeders are never happy theemselvs,,,,its the level of respect other show them that makes them the best at what they do

the best build a legacy,,,,sam seems to be the closest to perfection,,,,

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Numbers increases the chances of a good find, but it is just numbers. Number 1001 could still be crap, but number 1 may be the holy grail.

The qualification for hack has nothing to do with numbers, but more an attitude.

 

[wdcf]

Numbers increases the chances of a good find, but it is just numbers

Amen

 

[DocLeaf]

We've selected males from 200 siblings and from 2 siblings before,, both with nice results.

The most important thing is to work with healthy parent stock.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Numbers increases the chances of a good find, but it is just numbers. Number 1001 could still be crap, but number 1 may be the holy grail.

The qualification for hack has nothing to do with numbers, but more an attitude.

I have to agree with you 98%.

But, being a hack or not has more to do with methodology than attitude.


For example, I know you consider me to be a hack, because of my political attitude, though my breeding methods are sound.

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

For example, I know you consider me to be a hack, because of my political attitude, though my breeding methods are sound.

lol

hack me some Casey Jones

a hack to me is a grower that does not care what the cross does, as long as its got the names in the cross, just wants to cash in on the hype.

seedmaker, is a grower that enjoys makin seed, takes a little pride in what he does. has a clue to what hes doin.

breeder, has the facilities to perform a actual breedin program.


yeah, crossin 2 plants is breeding, by def. breeding plants does not involve 2 plants from a 10 pack. just findin a male thats gonna throw what your lookin for can take forever outta a seedline. even just testin 3 males is serious work. lookin at incrossed/outcrossed generations before even settlein on a plant.

mendel used a few more then 10 plants.

CBF