Legalize Marijuana Will Be on CA Ballot

[Anti]

I agree that 21 age limit is kind of bullshit, and one of the things that turned me off about the bill. At 18 I can own a firearm but not a few plants?? I can kill myself with cancer but I can't ingest a cancer-curing substance?? Backwards as fuck.

Current law limits consumption of alcohol to those over 21. At 18, you can own a firearm, but not drink a beer.

If you want this to pass, you have to get into the mindset of the average non-smoker. The average non-smoker believes that pot affects people the same as or worse than alcohol.

How many times have you heard of 18 year olds getting jail time for possession of a case of beer? It'll be the same with legal herb.

 

[THCV]

Yeah, this isn't the best initiative of the 3 that were out there last year. Dennis Peron says there are a few fatal flaws, and i agree with him. The recent CA supreme court ruling re 215 is proof that laws enacted this way, ie via proposition, can't really be altered, so remember, if you think this is "better than nothing and we'll make it better later" that might not at all be the case--basically, the court ruled SB420 was unconstitutional in changing 215, so it doesn't seem like legislature could improve the TaxCannabis prop. I'll be voting against it. Here's what peron said:


Why I Oppose the “Tax & Regulate” Marijuana Initiative

Three Fatal Flaws

1. One ounce limit? 25 sq. foot per building garden size limit? Imagine a law to “tax and regulate” alcohol that only allows for possession of up to one bottle of wine imprisoning those who exceed that amount, be it two bottles or a small collection of choice vintages. These limits guarantee confusion, harassment and black marketeering forevermore. We don’t control alcohol by imposing a 25 sq. foot limit on grape vines. But one extra gram or sq. foot of pot means jail and even worse; this initiative specifies that if accused of having too much cannabis the burden of proof is on you, not the state.

2. Singling out those who want to use marijuana for a huge excise tax is just plain unfair. It maintains cannabis as the most expensive, blatantly overpriced product on the market thus forcing most people to choose cheaper, more dangerous drugs with huge externalized costs to society as a whole.

3. Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?

This initiative is bad for parents, students and ultimately the effort to get the state to stop ruining lives enforcing these draconian pot laws. Initiatives create permanent statutes. This one with its petty restrictions for personal users, prohibitive unfair taxes, and mandatory state prison sentences for teen agers need be nipped in the bud. We will campaign and vote against it should its proponents succeed in purchasing the necessary number of signatures to put it on the 2010 ballot. The tax revenue it will supposedly generate is a mere smokescreen for the kids it will regulate into three, five and seven year state prison sentences.

Perpetuating and increasing the hundred million plus tax dollars per year the state already spends policing this harmless plant is wrong yet that is exactly what this proposition does. Surely we can do better than this. How about just legalizing it, getting the state off pot to save lives and real money across the board? Please consider how you can help expose and defeat this misleading “tax and regulate” initiative. -DP

 

[karmical]

Yeah, this isn't the best initiative of the 3 that were out there last year. Dennis Peron says there are a few fatal flaws, and i agree with him. The recent CA supreme court ruling re 215 is proof that laws enacted this way, ie via proposition, can't really be altered, so remember, if you think this is "better than nothing and we'll make it better later" that might not at all be the case--basically, the court ruled SB420 was unconstitutional in changing 215, so it doesn't seem like legislature could improve the TaxCannabis prop. I'll be voting against it. Here's what peron said:


Why I Oppose the “Tax & Regulate” Marijuana Initiative

Three Fatal Flaws

1. One ounce limit? 25 sq. foot per building garden size limit? Imagine a law to “tax and regulate” alcohol that only allows for possession of up to one bottle of wine imprisoning those who exceed that amount, be it two bottles or a small collection of choice vintages. These limits guarantee confusion, harassment and black marketeering forevermore. We don’t control alcohol by imposing a 25 sq. foot limit on grape vines. But one extra gram or sq. foot of pot means jail and even worse; this initiative specifies that if accused of having too much cannabis the burden of proof is on you, not the state.

2. Singling out those who want to use marijuana for a huge excise tax is just plain unfair. It maintains cannabis as the most expensive, blatantly overpriced product on the market thus forcing most people to choose cheaper, more dangerous drugs with huge externalized costs to society as a whole.

3. Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?

This initiative is bad for parents, students and ultimately the effort to get the state to stop ruining lives enforcing these draconian pot laws. Initiatives create permanent statutes. This one with its petty restrictions for personal users, prohibitive unfair taxes, and mandatory state prison sentences for teen agers need be nipped in the bud. We will campaign and vote against it should its proponents succeed in purchasing the necessary number of signatures to put it on the 2010 ballot. The tax revenue it will supposedly generate is a mere smokescreen for the kids it will regulate into three, five and seven year state prison sentences.

Perpetuating and increasing the hundred million plus tax dollars per year the state already spends policing this harmless plant is wrong yet that is exactly what this proposition does. Surely we can do better than this. How about just legalizing it, getting the state off pot to save lives and real money across the board? Please consider how you can help expose and defeat this misleading “tax and regulate” initiative. -DP

Dennis has been against recreational usage from the get go. His statements against, what the hell is protecting those under 21yrs olds currently? Just how many of those under 21yrs old are doing harsh prison time for marijuana today?

what really gets me is how all these people against are bitching about taxes that 1) they aren't paying now & 2) if this thing passes, they will not pay, so what really is the point of even bringing that shit up if not just to employ their own version of pot hysteria<--not a cheap shot at Dennis by using a Uterine term, but it just fit..

 

[ChronJohn]

Current law limits consumption of alcohol to those over 21. At 18, you can own a firearm, but not drink a beer.

If you want this to pass, you have to get into the mindset of the average non-smoker. The average non-smoker believes that pot affects people the same as or worse than alcohol.

How many times have you heard of 18 year olds getting jail time for possession of a case of beer? It'll be the same with legal herb.

I'm against the age limit of alcohol as well, it's arbitrary and pointless. You know the whole "go to war, go to a bar" thing. Shit I can drive a 2000lb weapon when I'm 16! A lot of Europe has a lower drinking age and supposedly less of an underage drinking problem.. the list goes on. Like I said, I don't agree with it but I'm still going to support it. And if it fails (which I won't care too much if it does) then there's always 2012 for a superior initiative. Then we can all legally smoke for a month and a half til the world ends

THCV, I was against this initiative from the get-go for exactly the reasons Peron is. Bullshit age limit, bullshit excise tax, and bullshit grow/possession limits. Those 3 things made it a very big issue with me. However after reading in the initiative that local government can raise the limits if they want to, that gave it a little better footing for me, because I know constituents are going to get their representatives to up the limits if they become enough of an issue. You're right, the legislature cannot amend initiatives to make them more restrictive (which they attempted to do with SB420). They can only EXPAND on them or make them less restrictive, which upping the grow and possession limits and changing the age limit would do (whether or not changing the age limit would be feasible is questionable actually.. I'm no lawyer). The only way to seriously change the initiative after the fact is to put another initiative before the voters, which if we see problems arise soon after passage we could do in 2012.
Believe me, if I had it my way I'd make the age limit 21, MAYBE add a special percentage-based "cannabis tax" (say, an extra 5%) on top of the state/local sales tax, and have no grow or possession limits (just no for-profit selling without a license). No special taxes on cannabis with less than 3% THC (to encourage hemp farming). And call it a wrap. Let the government regulate commercial suppliers however they want, labels on the products, storage requirements, toxin inspections whatever. But leave the consumer be. I can stock up on all the liquor and cigarettes I can carry in my shopping cart I don't think it should be any different for cannabis.

But I still would vote yes on taxcan2010. With misdemeanor arrests on the rise out in Cali, and unemployment raising even higher, we don't need all those non-med users who use just to relieve the stress of having a shitty life getting arrested and hurting their chances of finding a legit job even more. Let's do this people. Let's re-legalize it

EDIT:

Just how many of those under 21yrs old are doing harsh prison time for marijuana today?

I had felonies before I was even out of high school for barely over an ounce so don't get it twisted buddy. It really fucked up my life and it definitely happens so THINK OF THE CHILDREN (between 18 and 21)

 

[Cali_Boss]

people that disagree with this initiative because the legalized MJ is taxed are just stupid. of course none of us want it taxed, thats dumb, we should all be able to smoke a plant that grows freely for free and has little or no detriment to society. however, if taxation is the only way were going to get legalization, then ill take the $50 an ounce tax anyday. especially if its a $50 tax or a jail sentence...

it has the potential to be LEGAL. i think sometimes people lose site of this because they grow so much weed illegally that they lose site that its actually illegal. making the plant legal for the public will be HUGE, we'll see huge changes after this bill passes. god willing it does. everyone in california needs to get out and vote and educate the public. this is a monumental opportunity for marijuana legislation and californian residents.

 

[Cali_Boss]

also, i love how this bill will put all the big growers out of business. its them who twist marijuana into a cash crop instead of a medicinal, beneficial and intersting plant which is what it should be. i think if this bill passes people will quickly realize the benefits of the plant and forget its untrue association with drugs, gangs and black market money.

it'll be interesting to see if the industrial hemp business booms too... that could have far reaching benefits.

 

[larry badiner]

everyone remember to vote, i know i will. this is the most important thing to hit california since that earthquake in 91

 

[hippie_lettuce]

I think I may have said this in three different threads (lol) but the movement has to take a step forward somewhere. Again, we can't have a bill that is completely in our favor, because why would the fed government want to do that? A bill that is completely for the citizens and not for them? They don't get a cut? It's all about compromise. And if you look closely at the bill, it says:

"Pursuant to Article 2, section 10(c) of the California Constitution, this Act may be amended either by a subsequent measure submitted to a vote of the People at a statewide election; or by statute validly passed by the Legislature and signed by the Governor, but only to further the purposes of the Act. Such permitted amendments include but are not limited to:
(a) Amendments to the limitations in section 11300, which limitations are minimum thresholds and the Legislature may adopt less restrictive limitations." (etc.)

Again, we can make changes to this once it is passed. It's like one marine species that developed a proto-eye...one eye is better than having no eyes, right? Same with this...better that we at least NOT get arrested for even possessing one ounce. Sure I hate to see MJ taxed or for us to be limited to 5x5 or 1 ounce. But am I gonna get all of that with one bill, at one time? NO. It's time for compromise, then.

 

[Shcrews]

fuck taxes and fuck all of you who want to pay them...

democracy? ha.

let me decide how my tax money is used, then we'll talk. until then, we will just have more police oppression and corporate feudalism, paid for by GANJA TAX?!?!

 

[Anti]

fuck taxes and fuck all of you who want to pay them...

You only have to pay taxes on it if you're BUYING it from someone legally!

I'd rather pay a tax on some bud I just bought at the store down the street where I had a variety available to me anytime I wanted than to not pay a tax but have to deal with whatever blackmarket seller happened to live in my neighborhood... having to wait for his lazy ass to get around to calling me back... having to meet him in secret and then worry about getting pulled over on my way home and being put in a cage.

If I was gonna pay for it, I'd rather pay a tax than a $200+ citation or jail time.

let me decide how my tax money is used, then we'll talk. until then, we will just have more police oppression and corporate feudalism, paid for by GANJA TAX?!?!

Ever been to an underage drinking party? Gets a little rowdy, cops show up...

how many people there go to jail for possessing an intoxicant illegally?

Exactly.

 

[SOTF420]

If you mothertruckers don't vote for this bill this year you might as well put your fucking rolling papers away and goto police academy. This is the closest we have EVER been.

VOTE Yes or we might not get this close again if it fails. The spill over effect on other states would be immense and this could very well be the first domino. "Don't look the gift-horse in the mouth." Remember that shit.

 

[ChronJohn]

I think I may have said this in three different threads (lol) but the movement has to take a step forward somewhere. Again, we can't have a bill that is completely in our favor, because why would the fed government want to do that? A bill that is completely for the citizens and not for them? They don't get a cut? It's all about compromise. And if you look closely at the bill, it says:

"Pursuant to Article 2, section 10(c) of the California Constitution, this Act may be amended either by a subsequent measure submitted to a vote of the People at a statewide election; or by statute validly passed by the Legislature and signed by the Governor, but only to further the purposes of the Act. Such permitted amendments include but are not limited to:
(a) Amendments to the limitations in section 11300, which limitations are minimum thresholds and the Legislature may adopt less restrictive limitations." (etc.)

Again, we can make changes to this once it is passed. It's like one marine species that developed a proto-eye...one eye is better than having no eyes, right? Same with this...better that we at least NOT get arrested for even possessing one ounce. Sure I hate to see MJ taxed or for us to be limited to 5x5 or 1 ounce. But am I gonna get all of that with one bill, at one time? NO. It's time for compromise, then.

I've been trying to explain this since page 1 lol I'm glad you caught that too.. now hopefully everyone else will catch on.

The legislature is allowed to EXPAND on constitutional amendments they just can't make them more restrictive! Especially when it designates in the amendment itself that the legislature can expand on it to be less restrictive!!

 

[Frozenguy]

PLEASE residents of California..

VOTE AGAINST THIS LEGISLATION.

25sqft to grow in, is a SLAP IN THE FACE.

1oz to posses? I can harvest about 60oz in 25 sqft. WTF MAN.. This is bullshit.

This law sucks.

I want to smoke outside too but come on guys.

We have waited so long, just wait a bit longer for the RIGHT legislation.

This bill sucks! Forget about growing.

 

[Frozenguy]

I've been trying to explain this since page 1 lol I'm glad you caught that too.. now hopefully everyone else will catch on.

The legislature is allowed to EXPAND on constitutional amendments they just can't make them more restrictive! Especially when it designates in the amendment itself that the legislature can expand on it to be less restrictive!!

So you're saying that after this bill is out, some counties can say, you are allowed 50sqft or whatever. Just like it was a few months ago when we had the 6/12 "minimum" limit? Some counties could raise it but not go under?

Not very many counties raised their limits right?

And how far up can we go from 1oz? I can harvest 60 oz in one harvest in 25sq ftt (all flower space).

I want to be able to flower a lot more then that. And I dont want to have to move.

Who do you think will be in power to get the bill amended? And you think it will be amended soon? It will probably take several years at least right?

BTW who grows for the clubs that will open up?


And no, I dont want non violent drug "criminals" going to jail, and this has nothing to do with profit, but personal freedom.

I dont want to go to jail or get fined for growing more then 25sq feet or having a qp of fresh dank bud.

 

[meduser180056]

also, i love how this bill will put all the big growers out of business. its them who twist marijuana into a cash crop instead of a medicinal, beneficial and intersting plant which is what it should be.

Really?? It won't put big growers out of business you'll just get even bigger businesses with big business grows and you think they're are gonna do a better job at treating the herb as a sacred plant?

Funny stuff cali boss. Even funnier is that you call yourself a boss haha...

 

[meduser180056]

Listen Chronjon over there on the east coast. I know you are living vicariously through all of us in cali with this whole legalization initiative and all, but you aren't here.

If the legislature is allowed to expand on this initiative that's all well and good, but it's not gonna happen... They would only create legislature that would limit it if they can't do that they will just leave it alone. You don't know what the political climate is like here in Cali if you don't believe that.

The other way to expand it is through a voter initiative prop which will require signatures to get on the ballot. You really think the public will vote to expand the limits? Yeah in liberal areas they were able to get lots of signatures for a marijuana legalization prop, but if it's legalized people aren't gonna want to vote for a bill thats touted as raising limits blah blah blah they will say it's already legal why do you need more?

So if this initiative goes through thats gonna be it for a long time.

 

[ESCOknows]

im not voting for this shit... just read it, were getting the short end of the stick.

 

[Anti]

You guys who are complaining about the terms of legalization and saying "Medical is just fine for me" ought to study a little history.

There was a time, only about 30 years ago, when 15 states had decriminalized herb...

It can easily slide backward again.

We need to keep stepping FORWARD with this sort of thing.

Give it 20 years of being legal with no increase in violent crime and then take the next steps.

It makes absolutely no sense to say "25 square feet isn't enough, so I'd rather have 1 inch be illegal!" If you're going to break the law and grow right now, why not just vote to legalize it and then continue breaking the law by growing more than 25 sq ft?

It won't affect you any worse than now and probably would affect you in a positive way.

(If it's legal and you're caught with 50 sq. ft. that's gonna be less of a problem, IMHO, than if it's ILLEGAL and you're caught with 50 sq. ft.)

 

[larry badiner]

You guys who are complaining about the terms of legalization and saying "Medical is just fine for me" ought to study a little history.

There was a time, only about 30 years ago, when 15 states had decriminalized herb...

It can easily slide backward again.

We need to keep stepping FORWARD with this sort of thing.

Give it 20 years of being legal with no increase in violent crime and then take the next steps.

It makes absolutely no sense to say "25 square feet isn't enough, so I'd rather have 1 inch be illegal!" If you're going to break the law and grow right now, why not just vote to legalize it and then continue breaking the law by growing more than 25 sq ft?

It won't affect you any worse than now and probably would affect you in a positive way.

(If it's legal and you're caught with 50 sq. ft. that's gonna be less of a problem, IMHO, than if it's ILLEGAL and you're caught with 50 sq. ft.)

i was just about to post the same thing. who knows what will happen after, maybe they might change the bill a year or two after it passes to help reflect growers or something. this bill isnt going to hurt you, especially if you're already breaking the law. technically, after the bill passes you can get your medical card and posses up to 8 oz so theres always that route if you want to be 'legal'

 

[asstastic]

PLEASE residents of California..

VOTE AGAINST THIS LEGISLATION.

25sqft to grow in, is a SLAP IN THE FACE.

1oz to posses? I can harvest about 60oz in 25 sqft. WTF MAN.. This is bullshit.

This law sucks.

I want to smoke outside too but come on guys.

We have waited so long, just wait a bit longer for the RIGHT legislation.

This bill sucks! Forget about growing.

its stupid statments like that that are giving this bill a bad name aparently you did not read the ledgistlation
your grow area con be 25sqft no height restrictions no restrictions on indoor or out door you could do a 3x3' bud room and a 2x2 veg room you can do prepetual
and you can only bring an oz were ever you go but at your house your aloud as much as you want it specificaly said no restrictions on possion on your property
the reason they did that is so you cant go slang pounds and shit there trying to make it to were we can smoke frely they just put restrictions on garden size cuz if they just legalized it every dumb mother fucker would grow huge plants in there yard and every were they want for that matter and kids would be able to find weed werever they look and everyones yard would be covered in plants
were i live you have restrictions on how much of my yard can be a garden so its the same thing
just some people are fucking dumb and there gonna complain about paying taxes well if you grow your own like i assume you do already since your on this site you wouldnt have to pay taxes cuz your not buying and with it illegal if you get a ticket for your home grown that cops gonna tax you but if its legal you would be tax freecuz you grew it
no one has anything to complain about mj legistlation its just ignorance there giving you what you asked for why would you turn down legistlation youd rather it be not aloud thats stupid unless you dont like smoking pot
whats it gonna hurt
that its not hurting already
fuck you nay sayers you all should be banned