Droopy leaves in hydro, lack of oxygen?

[Soup]

I dont have pictures yet, but this is an emergency so Im making a post now. Ill have pictures in few days i hope.

Problem: After about a week from trasferring the plants to the flowering system, some of the plants have droopy leaves and the leaves are slowly starting to die. I had similar problem last time and nearly all plants died.

System: Plants were vegged in a simple 10l bubbler and trasferred to flowering system at around 30cm tall. The system is as follows: 8 20l buckets whit a 1000l/h water pump and 50l reservoir. Output creates a waterfall effect at reservoir that is suppose to put oxygen in the solution. The input hose is too small to let 1000l/h, so the reality is something like 200l/hour. I cant fix this anytimes soon, and have tried to find a compromise by installing 3,5l/min airpump. I dont know if this will stop more plants from having droopy leaves but it has not fixed the plants that are already affected.
I even disconnected 2 of the sick plants from the water pump system and put and air hose in theyr buckets, but after about 2 days the symptoms remain.
I also have some spider mites that iv quite succefully fougth whit predator bugs and chemicals.


pH 5,3
EC 1,2
hydro temp 27C (80,6F)
air temp 29C (84,2F)
RH 60%


WHAT DO?



edit: photo added
edit2: converted temps

 

[Kindman69]

PH is too low, 5.8-6.2, maybe 5.6 - 6.2, but you gota let it drift up.
Hydro temp is way to high, maintain 20c or 68f
Water temps that high will encourage root rot and other shit that thrives at higher temps.

Peace & good luck,
Kind

 

[Snype]

I'm assuming that you're doing DWC but you didn't fill out the form. Keep your res temps at less than 70 F and bring up your pH to 5.6. I have to pH my plants every day and you might need to do the same. From what you are explaining I had the same problem a few days ago with one of my plants and figured out it was my pH getting too low. You're res temps are probably part of the problem too if they are over 70 F. Good luck!

 

[Soup]

I shall try, but i doupt it will fix it. My pH was going around 4,8-6,2 during vegging and the plants didnt seem to mind much. Also, Im pretty sure during my previous run, solution temp was couple of degrees lower than now (and all but one plant died). Also, I tryied using the template but it came out in one cunk. Ill post result in few days, thank you for replying!

 

[lid]

agree. Your water temps are way to high and you need to get your p.h up. 27c is = to about 80F correct? The ppm of dissolved oxygen in h2o at 80F is half that at 70F. The problem is further compounded by the fact that the plant respiration increases as your nutrient temperature goes up. Further add the fact that your ph is to low locking out key nutrients.


Here's an article from Quick Grow:

Dissolved Oxygen (DO)
A hydroponic nutrient solution is not just a mix of fertilizer salts and water. There are a number of organisms and compounds commonly found in our hydro systems that we need to be aware of. One of the most important of these is dissolved oxygen (DO), which is vital for the health and strength of the root system as well as being necessary for nutrient uptake. Plants breath just like all organisms via respiration. We are used to thinking that plants produce oxygen from CO2, which is true, but it just happens the overall amount of oxygen used is dwarfed by the amount produced by photosynthesis. Oxygen is an essential plant nutrient – plant root systems require oxygen for aerobic respiration, an essential plant process that releases energy for root growth and nutrient uptake. In many water-based hydroponic systems,the oxygen supplied for

plant root uptake is provided mostly as dissolved oxygen (DO) in the nutrient solution as well as a zone of aeration provided by a gap from the surface to the reservoir water level.
Oxygen requirements for plants in flower tend to be more demanding in comparison to vegetative states. This is due to the size of the root system, temperature, and nutrient uptake rates, not the specific stage of growth.
Injury from low (or no) oxygen in the root zone can take several forms and these will differ in severity between plant types. Often the first sign of inadequate oxygen supply to the roots is wilting of the plant under warm conditions and high light levels. Insufficient oxygen reduces the permeability of the roots to water and there will be an accumulation of toxins, so that both water and minerals are not absorbed in sufficient amounts to support plant growth.
While it is possible to measure the levels of dissolved oxygen in a hydroponic nutrient solution, it is not carried out as often as EC/ppm or pH monitoring due to the cost of accurate DO meters. However, if an effective method of aeration is continually being used, and solution temperatures are not reaching excessively high levels, then good levels of oxygenation can be achieved without trouble.
Most growers are familiar with the need to have some sort of aeration in their nutrient solution due to waters high surface tension – whether they are in a recirculating water-based or media-based system. However, the effect of temperature of the solution on the DO levels and on root respiration rates also needs to be taken into account. As the temperature of your nutrient solution increases, the ability of that solution to hold DO decreases. For example, the oxygen content of a fully aerated solution at 50 F (10 C) is about 13 ppm, but as the solution warms up to 68 F (20 C) the ability of the liquid to ‘hold’ oxygen drops to 9-10 ppm. By the time the solution has reached 86 F (30 C) it is only 7 ppm. While this may not seem like a huge drop in the amount of DO, we have to remember that as the temperature of the root system warms, the rate of respiration of the root tissue also increases and more oxygen is required by the plant. For example, the respiration rate of the roots will double for each 10 C rise in temperature up to 86 F (30 C). So the situation can develop where the solution temperature increases from 68-86 F (20-30 C) during the day, with a mature crop, then the requirement for oxygen will double while the oxygen carrying capacity of the solution will drop by 25%. This means that the DO in solution will be much more rapidly depleted and then plants can suffer from oxygen starvation (root rot) for a period of time.
Perhaps one of the commonest problems in hydropnic systems is the Pythium pathogen. What many growers do not realize is that Pythium, being an “opportunist” fungi, often takes advantage of plants which have been stressed by a combination of high temperatures and oxygen starvation in the root zone. Pythium is usually described as a “secondary infection” meaning that the Pythium spores that are actually common in just about all hydroponic systems, don't actually attack the plant until it has been damaged in some way. Pythium is everywhere, so the best defense is a healthy plant. There are many products available that can help in your battle with root disease. Refer to the “roots” discussion in the Plant Nutrition section of this site for more info.
The variables to remember in regard to nutrient solutions are that aeration is vital to maintain the DO levels, temperatures should be kept within an optimum range, and a healthy plant is the best measure of protection against a disease outbreak

 

[PetFlora]

Get some clear plastic cups to put over each plant. The increased humidity can work wonders

 

[NiteTiger]

Another vote here for fixing your PH to 5.8 - 6.0, the normal target for hydro, and decreasing your water temps significantly.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

It only takes 3 days for a plant to die through lack of oxygen. Believe me... I've killed quite a few.

Res temp too high, water flow not enough, airpumps not enough.... You need more dissolved oxygen and fast. Doubtful that they'll survive.

Keep in mind that flowering also dramatically increases the amount of oxygen the plant needs to absorb through the root mass.


Stay Safe!

 

[El Toker]

With those reservoir temps there'll be pythium all over the roots, and that will be what's making the pH drop.

I grow in DWC and have found that a sharp drop in pH usually indicates the start of pythium.

 

[Soup]

Ok, I added a photo, lowered solution temp by lowering air temp, going to try to keep solution temp at 22C (71.6F). No new sick plants, but plants whit symptoms have not recovered, although they havent gotten worse as fast as I remember they got last time. Hopefully this fixes the problem.

I orginally switched to passive ventilation to increase RH in an effort to fight the spider mites. My fear is that the spider mites will increase now becouse of the lowered RH. Raid (Permethrin, Tetramethrin, Cypermethrin and Imiprothrin) didnt work on them, and the predator bugs need high RH.

 

[slowandeasy]

That has nothing to do with pH! Your plants are dying from lack of DO. You HAVE to get your rez temps below 75, minimum. Also, add another airline to your bucket. High temps and low oxygen is your problem fo sho! If you cannot keep your water temps below 75, dont even consider doing hydro. Wasting your time! You prolly already have root rot starting. You could try adding some Hydrogen Peroxide to your rez, but that is just a band-aid. Fix your temps or switch to Coco or Soil...you will fail at hydro EVERYTIME if your temps are that high. Good luck.

BTW I see your buckets are white. You need to have lightproof buckets! Light causes algae, algae causes rot. Go buy some Reflectix or some tinfoil tape, this will help with high temps and keep out the light. Roots do not like light or hight temps...you are giving them both!

 

[Soup]

Before I started using waterpump, I used the same buckets but they were simple bubblers. I belive the temps were about the same but I had no problems whit droopy leaves. Could this be becouse of solution level? Or does the running water/waterfall actuall decrease DO? Before circulation/waterpump the surface would drop below 50% of the bucket, as the plant would suck the solution, then I would manually refill it.

The surface of the solution is quite close to the buckets edge in this new system, at about 2 inch away. see pic

Would it help if the output hose from the buckets were lower? (solution level in the buckets were the plants are sitting would be lower.)

Iv also noticed that if the waterpump is turned off, the solution will slowly move from the buckets back to the reservoir. This is complety against my intuition as the buckets are above reservour level (and the input hose in the buckets are also above reservours solution level). If the waterpump would be off, like 15min, this would expose the roots for awile, would this be usefull?

Photo of entire system:

 

[Snype]

Damn that first pic of your plants is crazy. Sorry that things are not going well. I would go to some FFOF soil instead. Too many problems with DWC to work right unless you have all the goodies esp a water chiller. I was having the same problem with some of mine too but I finally figured out that keeping my pumps in the same room as the plants was a bad idea because CO2 is heavier than air and it was pumping straight into my res's. But just think about this, what will happen if your power goes out for a few hours? All your plants will probably die. What will happen when you're not there and the room gets a little hot? Your plants will die. I know you can get big yields in DWC but is it really worth it if you lose a crop here and there?

 

[Soup]

Well, the reason i chose this is becouse I was previously growing the bubblers, like I said.. so i figured Id just put a waterpump and a reservour there and it would be just like the bubblers exept I wouldn't have to refill each bucket induvitually and the pH would also be easery to maintain becouse Id only have to adjust it from one place. I dont have any idea how would I go about converting this system to something else.

 

[cyberwax]

pH 5,3
EC 1,2
hydro temp 27C
air temp 29C
RH 60%


WHAT DO?

Ph should be 5.8, or atleast in between 5.5 and 6.2.

Ec should also be higher, but plants wont die like this unless they cant feed.

Hydro temp(water temp?) = too high, max watertemp is around 31 c but maintaining a proper res with such high tempratures is not worth it. And in your case also its way too high. The higher the water temprature the more likely you'll attract some sort of root issue, the higher the water temprature the less oxygen your water contains, and so on. So ideal water temprature with the least percentage of failure would be in between 17-19c.

Air temp should be 25, 29 will do however but this is also the reason why your water temprature is so high, the easiest fix to your water temprature is lowering the air temp.

Rh is fine.

What killed these plants was the combination of ph lockout and root issues due to high water temp. So before you start on your next batch make sure to clean that res properly with chlorine, both medium and res for that matter, in fact clean everything or you'll just end up with the same results next time even tho everything else is perfect.

And sorry for the horrendus english, i just toked away too big a morning hit.

 

[Soup]

Here are new stats:
installed a fan,

air temp: 26C (78,8F)
hydro temp: 25C (77F)
RH: 25%

put a timer on the waterpump, roots will be exposedto air few times a day, due to back flow.

somone asked: hydro temp=solution temp

One new plant is sick

If anyone has any ideas how to easyly convert this to more beginner friendly system Im open to ideas. Possibly by using coco coir or other easyly movable substance.

 

[cyberwax]

if water temprature cant be lowered more then you should go with some sort of ebb&floo system. I do not know the condition of your roots but if you would provide a picture a more detailed plan could be laid down.

 

[compost]

If all the plants share the same solution it does sound like the high water temps that nearly killed your plants may have produced some bad stuff in the water that has spread to the new plants. Since the temperatures are lower now they don't thrive as much so the new plants are under less of an attack and intially only the weak and severly stressed plants will be susecptible to whatever is in the water. My recomendation would be to add H2O2 to the solution for a day and let it sanitize the roots, containers, and water. I would then rinse off the roots and containers and fill with new solution. I would then find a way to move your res outside of the room if you can't get the water temperatures down. In hydro my plants always did the best in the middle of winter when heat in the air and water was much easier to control.

best of luck to you

 

[mrwags]

Here are new stats:
installed a fan,

air temp: 26C (78,8F)
hydro temp: 25C (77F)
RH: 25%

put a timer on the waterpump, roots will be exposedto air few times a day, due to back flow.

somone asked: hydro temp=solution temp

One new plant is sick

If anyone has any ideas how to easyly convert this to more beginner friendly system Im open to ideas. Possibly by using coco coir or other easyly movable substance.

Your almost there man. How are the mites? These little bastards need to be handled b4 we grow anything else. They get on you in your house on your pets and will be a BITCH if not handled.

Now imho the cheapest most effective quick change would be a simple ebb and flow that would set you back about 30 bucks and enable room for 15-18 plants. How you ask?

The hydro farm ebb and flow kits can be had for around 12.95 and a good tub for it can be had at your local dollar store.



This is one of those storage tubs that you roll under your bed I think it was like 8 dollars and holds a lot of pots. Simply drill 2 holes add your fittings eazy peazy you got an easy ass way to grow bud.

Now your first post said these were your girls after 10 days transplanted.? Shame on you for letting her suffer like that man 10 DAYS of pain in hydro you will see changes in a few hours not days.

IF YOU CONTROL THE ENVIRONMENT THE REST IS EASY. Your temps are coming down nicely but get your humidity up. The goodwill is a good place then again The Dollar store or Wal-Mart OFF SEASON will give good finds as well.

A hot rez will ALWAYS I MEAN ALWAYS give you a hot mess. Your roots will get all nasty looking and mushy and without roots YOU WILL NOT HAVE A PLANT plain and simple.

If you ebb and flow (in the worst case) you can atleast cool the water b4 you flow.

So

Get rid of the mites,control the temps,get the rez cooled down and get your rh up.


My Penny
Mr.Wags

 

[Soup]

Ebb&Flow seems interesting but I before that Ill try to increase circulation of water by getting wider input hose. As for the mites.. they dont seem to be multiplying that fast, it takes awhile before one can even find one, Ill prolly order some more predator bugs after Ill get new plants ready to flower.

I mesured the output that comes to my res and its 225liters/hour. Divided by 8 (number of buckets), and 18 (each 20l bucket has about 18l of solution), every buckets gets its solution exchanged about 1,6 times in an hour. BigToke writes in BioBucket101 that its suppose to be 7 times per hour. He also claims that BioBuckets can run on higher solution temps. So Im really hoping this will work.

I have tested and found out that, like I suspected the input hose is too narrow and this prevents the waterpump from delivering 1000l/hour. (The guy who sold me the pump/hose said it woulndnt! Should havet tested it myself.)

Could it be that 1000l/hour waterfall would get more oxygen in the solution than my 225l/hour+airpump? I sure hope so!

(also, my waterfall has been too short, sometimes as little as 0,5 feet)

Still im puzzled about that airpump not giving enough oxygen in this new system, when whitout the waterpump my plants were ok.

BigToke writes in his BioBucket 101 about input hose:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=8182
The smallest that I have ever seen was: ¾ and then branched off to each bucket with ½ , on a four bucket system, if you go any lower than a ¾ main supply line, you run the risk of not having enough water/nutrients to exchange-out your buckets 7 to 10 times an hour, and the same is true with the ¾ line to each bucket.