FlipBox BY PowerBox??

[toohighmf]

Avenger, I think this conversation is actually just starting to take shape, and it is all because of your contributions. Why bail now? There's so much to learn from all 3 of us.
I do believe it does matter whether or not you mfg Flips or not because if you havent and go off everything "you read" instead of actually building the stuff, testing it, consulting electrical engineers and running the stuff for years, how can you question Kris' and his designers methods? Do you hold a degree in electrical engineering? I read a lot about cars and other performance related products. Often what sounds great on paper, is often erroneous to the cold hard facts of the true performance. For instance. I was in the market for a sporty luxury car. Infinity g35 coupes were about to hit the market and from what I read in Car & Driver, made this car out to be the ultimate! until I took one for a test drive... ended up with an Audi A4 3.0 after giving on the reading and focusing on real world hands on experience. though this all based on MY experiences, the truth be told, reading about a product and using the product are 2 completely different experiences. There is no "right or wrong" answer. it's preference. but you cant base preference on numbers and stats in a magazine or catalog. you must base it on experience.

 

[Avenger]

I'm not bailing brother. Just wanted to say thanks for the discussion.

I've built flipflops, I've run flipflops. Lots of flipflops.

I've built and serviced circuits that are much more complex than flipflops.

I'm not an engineer.

I am hands on and have decades of experience with electricity and arc discharge lamps.

I can question Kris's design, because it is unsafe, goes against NEC code and is not based in proven theory.

Ask Kris to get an actual quote from his Electrical Engineer and we can discuss it further.

His quotes so far are plagued by laymen inadequacy's.

 

[toohighmf]

I'm sure a quote is easy enough to obtain from the engineer who designed the product. Calling the product unsafe when it is 100% UL/CSA compliant is a farce. You know as well as I do that Horti-control flips were designed to the highest safety standards. it's why Kris went to a electrical engineer in the first place. I'll get you your quote and hopefully after reading a professionals take on the matter, we may all learn something. hell if it's dangerous, I think I would have heard about it by now almost 6 years after the fact

 

[Avenger]

I am open to learning something new. And even eating my words.


I can't find any UL certifications for Horti-control though.
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html

 

[toohighmf]

their are not UL/CSA approved. it's very expensive to get the listing. however the product is UL/CSA compliant. Kris is in the process of aquiring NEC approval. If they say his box needs to be wired different. He will comply.

 

[GroBoy2000]

Good read guys, lots of info. Many should benefit from your knowledge and time shared here.

Thanks.

 

[Avenger]

Calling the product unsafe when it is 100% UL/CSA compliant is a farce.

No, Horti-control saying their products are "UL compliant" without having the Underwriters Laboratories approval is a farce!

 

[toohighmf]

Again, the design is UL compliant, designed by the electrical engineer to be UL listed. no farce in that, bud. When Kris has to be listed, he'll send in his products and pay the ridiculous fees. until then, why bother?
.

 

[Avenger]

Dude, it is not compliant if it has not undergone UL testing.

No if's and's or butt's about it.


It is being advertised as "UL compliant" yet it is not.

 

[toohighmf]

this is getting old, man. I'm not going to go back n forth with just you about this stuff. compliancy and listed are 2 different things. Is the listing going to help sell more boxes? so far... no. Do we care about that you seem to be the only one questioning the box? not really.

 

[Avenger]

So you guys have decide on your own that it is UL compliant? I guess thats one way to avoid the testing and approval fees you said were too exspensive. Thats some funny shit! Maybe I should let the UL know about this?

And since Horti-control advertises that it IS "UL compliant", obviously they think it is important to their business. Just not important enough to actually be listed as compliant by the Underwriters Laboratories.

Your product does not pass the NEC electrical code, nor is it UL approved.

 

[toohighmf]

see, now your being condescending. Why do you question that the electrical engineer who designed the box wouldn't make us a box that wouldn't pass UL/CSA registration? It seems to me, that maybe you should go into the flip biz. You seem to be an Electrical savant. Kris & his engineer are putting out non compliant fire hazards with 90+% of the boxes running 3 years longer than their warranty without a single fire mind you. It's important to know that Kris takes safety seriously and made sure to build a box that would pass UL's testing. If it becomes mandatory to pay the registration fees, than I'm sure it will he will pay and make that happen. We don't know if it passes NEC or not yet. Kris is working on that. if they tell him he needs to add a relay, break the circuit or whatever else. He said he would comply. there im done. thanks for trying to discredit the only commercial grade production quality built flip on the market. I hope you have enjoyed yourself! I am an ex employee, retailer, and constant user of the product. I am not affiliated with the company in any way, Anymore. Kris is the Homie and I support his products as they have saved me a lot BS I was going through with inferior products. have a nice life. peace!

 

[green_thumb...]

POW POW!!!!

 

[Avenger]

Hello Kris:

No. If a product is not UL Listed, the manufacturer cannot claim that the product is UL Listed. And they cannot display the UL Mark.

Manufacturers make lots of claims that we are unable to control - for instance, a manufacturer might say that his product complies with the requirements for UL. That is not saying that his product is UL Listed. If a manufacturer displays the UL Mark on his website or brochures and he has no UL Listing, then we will want to know about it. Here is a link to our Anti-counterfeiting website -

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/services/programs/anticounterfeitingoperations/

If you believe that a manufacturer is making false claims, please feel free to provide us with details so that we can investigate.

Very best regards,

Ken Fetzer
Senior Customer Service Engineer
Underwriters Laboratories
Tel: 1-877-854-3577 X-11746
FAX: 1-631-439-6464
Lighting@us.ul.com

Gotta love semantics. lmao


Please don't go away mad toohighmf. I'm still very interested in hearing from your Electrical Engineer on this arc reduction phenomenom you guys have discovered, by not switching the commons.

If you will go back and re-read this discussion we have been having, you will find that I have at no time said or implied that Horti-control flipflops are a fire hazzard, or that they are unreliable. Don't get your panties in such a wad that you can't think straight.

I'm eager to see if your product passs the ETL approval.

And Yes, I have enjoyed this discussion very much. thank you for taking the time to be consulted.

 

[Bud Spleefman]

I can't understand why you'd flip just one light, it's twice as much work! Now you have two completely seperate grows going, which obviously you can only work on each one with the lights on. For the extra hundred bucks get another ballast instead of the flip-box and save yourself tons of time. Run those bloom boxes side by side.

Most of the "flip boxes" I've seen run like like 100 lights, 50 at a time.. which now you are talking a full time job for multiple people, anyway....

 

[choch]

Flipping one light can allow you to add a second light without running another circuit if you are maxed out.

 

[Bud Bug]

But remember now you need a special kind of flip box for digital ballasts,

The only difference is that the ballasts have to be shut off first and then started once the relay flips. So the board has to be built with a Delay on Make timer http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=delay on make timer&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

 

[toohighmf]

Avenger, you called the product unsafe. it clearly isn't. no one said the box is UL listed. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve from this conversation. when I wear panties, their usually on my head, and their usually bunched up on the floor next to my lady.
I can't wait to hear what the engineer has to say as well.

Gotta love semantics. lmao


Please don't go away mad toohighmf. I'm still very interested in hearing from your Electrical Engineer on this arc reduction phenomenom you guys have discovered, by not switching the commons.

If you will go back and re-read this discussion we have been having, you will find that I have at no time said or implied that Horti-control flipflops are a fire hazzard, or that they are unreliable. Don't get your panties in such a wad that you can't think straight.

I'm eager to see if your product passs the ETL approval.

And Yes, I have enjoyed this discussion very much. thank you for taking the time to be consulted.

 

[Avenger]

Yes, unsafe. They present an electric shock hazzard. They don't pass NEC code and are not approved by UL.

I am trying to save you the hassle of not passing the UL or ETL testing process. And prevent anyone from getting shocked by a halfass design.

Saying they are "UL compliant" is a weasle business maneuver.

 

[Powerbox]

toohighmf, with all respect, you seem too defensive of kris to not have a dog in this fight. you also seem to have a lot of knowledge ready to cite regarding kris and horti.

anyway, if you really think one relay is the way to go and you also "don't earn above-average profit margins," then you should really lower your prices a LOT!!

HOTRI 2 Ballast
1 Relay
1 Case
2 Cords
4 Sockets
Price: $299

Flipbox 1 Ballast
1 Relay
1 Case
1 Cord
2 Sockets
Price: $149

Horti is charging DOUBLE THE PRICE - $299 for ONLY 1 extra cord and 2 extra sockets - an extra manufacturing cost of only $7.

that's an EXTRA $143 PROFIT PER UNIT - Seems like a pretty steep margin to me...