FlipBox BY PowerBox??
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Kris from Horticontrol read this thread and asked me to clarify something for him. here is his quote.
Thanks for sending me to that link, interesting stuff. I knew Jeff was going to make a flip, I told sheldon thats cool because I'm going to make load centers... it's business. I am surprised they decided to include LEDs, just another potential problem, but i guess pretty lights sell
. He was cool to me, and has a great design element to his products.
I noticed some people questioning the method of only flipping the hots... Guess they haven't spent as much time as we have trying to find the most reliable way of doing it. As you know from our testing, flipping both the hot and neutral causes a larger in rush of current , which leads to a larger arch. That is why our relay supplier (we don't use that nte branded one) suggested only flipping hots, so the current can "back flow" on the neutral during the switch over. the "danger" of a "live" neutral on the unlit bulb vs. the danger of huge arching welding contacts and melting them down creating a fire hazard is a no brainer to me As long as all of the equipment is properly wired and grounded it isn't an issue.
To each his own i guess, just thought i could explain that to you so you could pass it on. LF-1 single light flip is almost ready for sale, we went with a slave port AND a 15 ft piggy trigger... jeff had a good idea for the slave port, 20 trigger cables plugged into each other would be like 4 feet long! haha.
Hit me up tomorrow,
kris
just FYI
Thanks for sending me to that link, interesting stuff. I knew Jeff was going to make a flip, I told sheldon thats cool because I'm going to make load centers... it's business. I am surprised they decided to include LEDs, just another potential problem, but i guess pretty lights sell
. He was cool to me, and has a great design element to his products.I noticed some people questioning the method of only flipping the hots... Guess they haven't spent as much time as we have trying to find the most reliable way of doing it. As you know from our testing, flipping both the hot and neutral causes a larger in rush of current , which leads to a larger arch. That is why our relay supplier (we don't use that nte branded one) suggested only flipping hots, so the current can "back flow" on the neutral during the switch over. the "danger" of a "live" neutral on the unlit bulb vs. the danger of huge arching welding contacts and melting them down creating a fire hazard is a no brainer to me
As long as all of the equipment is properly wired and grounded it isn't an issue. To each his own i guess, just thought i could explain that to you so you could pass it on. LF-1 single light flip is almost ready for sale, we went with a slave port AND a 15 ft piggy trigger... jeff had a good idea for the slave port, 20 trigger cables plugged into each other would be like 4 feet long! haha.
Hit me up tomorrow,
kris
just FYI
That's cool man,I'm sure if they had that LF-1 single flip unit that would have been a pickle of a choice for me,but all in all jef hooked it up and sent me 2 NEW UNITS!!! One with "improved LEDs" and one woith the LEDs disconnected,I have the one with LEDs disconnected hooked up right now workin fine.
Wtf are you talkin about?
Hey its all good bro,never heard of nowirenuts.ca so cool with me eh.
Kris@Horticontrol said:
That is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
There is no "inrush" current at the switch of the bulbs in a flip flop. the load being switched/flipped is an arc discharge lamp, these loads have a negative resistance charicteristic. This means the bulb draws no current until the arc is lit, then the current increases as the arc gets hotter/brighter until it is limited by the ballast.
This is completely opposite of inrush current, higher initial current and then lowering of current as the load operates, which most every other kind of load exhibits.
There is an arc as the relay contacts "break", but not as they "make".
This nonesense about "current can "back flow" on the neutral during the switch over" stinks to high heaven.
I challenge Kris, or anyone else to prove this supposed phenomenom.
We'll se what Kris has to say. I just dropped him an vm and I hope he gets to me so I can post it to you guys ASAP. I've worked with Kris for a long time. He is pretty smart. I wouldn't be surprised if we all learn something from both of your posts. I can say that a single relay makes for significantly less mechanical failures. I believe as a user of the product, that the reliability comes from simplicity. besides the fact that a 20 light flip would end up being 8' long & weighing over 400lbs. So Far everyone who uses a relay per circuit in their flips has problems. I have had 1 warranty issue in 5 years with Horti controls plug n play units with every ballast imaginable. the operator never grounded his power and fried his electronic ballasts too. cant say it was a mechanical failure. I beat the crap out of mine. they flip 12 times 24 hours a day. think about the abuse my relays go through 11 times the average use!!! thats 8750 odd flips in 2 years time. thats like 10 years of flipping 1x daily. those results speak bounds in my opinion.
Right out the horses mouth
here is my reply to avenger. guess i shouldn't have incorrectly used the term in rush and said "current rushes". Since I am not an electrician my terminology is pretty "layman"
The capacitor regulates the current b/c the bulb becomes less resistive over time. With out the capacitor the bulb would suck power till things blew. The ignitor senses the resistance of a cold bulb and "strikes" it with a larger pulse voltage. When the relay switches between the make and break there is XX ms "gap" in the ability for current to flow. When both the hot and neutral run through the relay the absolute break or make of the H and N wires causes a larger arc compared to hot only switching. The largest arc occurs on break regardless, in either wiring method. The explanation I was given by the relay manufacturer was the common neutrals allowed this build up of power to dissipate, creating a smaller arc.
Having built them both ways, and spending more than enough time in a dark room comparing arc amplitude, we will stay with our current method. I also had an ex ul inspector tell me the design and wiring of this device will pass ul requirements so what's the issue? With our failure rate of LESS than 1% something must be working
thanks bro
here is my reply to avenger. guess i shouldn't have incorrectly used the term in rush and said "current rushes". Since I am not an electrician my terminology is pretty "layman"
The capacitor regulates the current b/c the bulb becomes less resistive over time. With out the capacitor the bulb would suck power till things blew. The ignitor senses the resistance of a cold bulb and "strikes" it with a larger pulse voltage. When the relay switches between the make and break there is XX ms "gap" in the ability for current to flow. When both the hot and neutral run through the relay the absolute break or make of the H and N wires causes a larger arc compared to hot only switching. The largest arc occurs on break regardless, in either wiring method. The explanation I was given by the relay manufacturer was the common neutrals allowed this build up of power to dissipate, creating a smaller arc.
Having built them both ways, and spending more than enough time in a dark room comparing arc amplitude, we will stay with our current method. I also had an ex ul inspector tell me the design and wiring of this device will pass ul requirements so what's the issue? With our failure rate of LESS than 1% something must be working
thanks bro
POW POW!!
I honestly don't know nearly as much as Kris does, so for all I know avenger might have something to teach us all. I would love to hear what he has to say about Kris' response.
this is by no means a battle of the flips. I know how to maximize a flips potential, but I am no electrician. it's just common sense to me. I have owned literally every flip on the market and had nothing but problems until Kris worked out the kinks. This all started from my frustration for inferior flips, and Kris built one for himself. it worked. from there out he contracted an electrical engineer to design him a UL/CSA compliant enclosure and find a "special" relay that can handle the abuse. He originally was running a relay per circuit and the engineer said 1 relay per was much safer/reliable. Kris has come a long way since the introduction of horti-control. His product flat out works. its expandable, and it's not horrendously priced.
this is by no means a battle of the flips. I know how to maximize a flips potential, but I am no electrician. it's just common sense to me. I have owned literally every flip on the market and had nothing but problems until Kris worked out the kinks. This all started from my frustration for inferior flips, and Kris built one for himself. it worked. from there out he contracted an electrical engineer to design him a UL/CSA compliant enclosure and find a "special" relay that can handle the abuse. He originally was running a relay per circuit and the engineer said 1 relay per was much safer/reliable. Kris has come a long way since the introduction of horti-control. His product flat out works. its expandable, and it's not horrendously priced.
Using the flip flops as a light mover, realfood.
As far as what Kris said about switching only the hots reduces the arc, I don't believe it. but there isn't much I can say to disprove it, other than there is no theory behind it. Saying the common neutral dissipates power isjust silly, it flies in the face of the laws of physics. Power doesn't dissipate into nothing, it has to be converted into heat or work of some kind.
The larger arc occurs on the break, because thats the only time there is any measurable current flowing. Any time you break current flow, you get the arc, whether or not the neutral is switched at the same time or not, the arcing is the same.
The only reason to use one DPDT relay to flip flop two ballasts is to reduce the cost, by reducing the number of relays. And by doing so you leave the bulb that is off, in the live electric circuit. This at the very least should be stated in a warning label on the flip flop unit itself.
As far as what Kris said about switching only the hots reduces the arc, I don't believe it. but there isn't much I can say to disprove it, other than there is no theory behind it. Saying the common neutral dissipates power isjust silly, it flies in the face of the laws of physics. Power doesn't dissipate into nothing, it has to be converted into heat or work of some kind.
The larger arc occurs on the break, because thats the only time there is any measurable current flowing. Any time you break current flow, you get the arc, whether or not the neutral is switched at the same time or not, the arcing is the same.
The only reason to use one DPDT relay to flip flop two ballasts is to reduce the cost, by reducing the number of relays. And by doing so you leave the bulb that is off, in the live electric circuit. This at the very least should be stated in a warning label on the flip flop unit itself.
Avenger, do you mfg flip flops for a living? What makes you such an authority on flips? Again for the record: 1 relay per circuit gives you more potential for mechanical failure. What part of that is so difficult to understand? Horti's work better than 99% of the dogshit out there. Every flip that uses 2 relays has a 50% greater chance of failing than 1 proper rated relay. Simplicity rules. It's that simple.
Kris just emailed me this...
"Saying the common neutral dissipates power isjust silly, it flies in the face of the laws of physics. Power doesn't dissipate into nothing, it has to be converted into heat or work of some kind."
neutral wires as far as I can tell from reading and speaking with "qualified" people, eventually dissipate into ground (see wiki) The way i understood it the common neutrals or always leaving the neutral connected lessens the amount of current that builds up during the switch.
Any time you break current flow, you get the arc, whether or not the neutral is switched at the same time or not, the arcing is the same.
not true. I didn't believe the relay manufacturers tech department either until I tried it myself. smaller arc with one wire switched. The first horti units were 1 relay per ballast. when I sent a prototype lf series, ballasts and a few bulbs to the relay tech guys they recommended the common neutrals.
I resisted this idea myself until i tried it, now I have completely shared proprietary info that I believe is the key to our success. not very smart, but whatever.
"The only reason to use one DPDT relay to flip flop two ballasts is to reduce the cost, by reducing the number of relays."
There is another reason too, and jeff was smart enough to realize it. Which BTW was the ONLY reason to make a 1 light flip.
think about this. All consumer electronics have failure rates in excess of 10%. I pods as high as 40% within 4 years!!! Relay manufacturers claim different failure rates..... mine claims 6%. So 6 out of 100 will break or are defective right out of the box. If you built five 20 light flip boxes using 1 relay per ballast, you would use 100 relays. If 6 of those relays are bound to go bad and you have 5 flip boxes the odds are stacked against you by using half the relays, and i believe the particular relay I use, combined with the mysterious "common neutrals = less arc" And you have a better "forecast for reliability".
We have had less than 1 out of 100 returned.... and we didn't sell hundreds yesterday. We have been selling these for 5 + years and i still see those "OG" units with crappy logo, monotone print, and a non piggyback cable popping up in threads of second hand users. I think that speaks volumes and proves we are not only the original but still "THE KING OF FLIPS!"
"And by doing so you leave the bulb that is off, in the live electric circuit. This at the very least should be stated in a warning label on the flip flop unit itself."
I agree. we are currently re doing our instructions and working on etl approval. I will add that info to the literature and maybe even a sticker on the unit.
These replies are rare from me, as I leave the internet sword fighting to people with extra time on their hands. My job is to make the best products I can without a bunch of extra shiny parts and flashing lights to mesmerize you. If it costs more and doesn't make the product better functionally we don't do it. If it adds extra potential problems (like led indicators on the live circuit) we don't do it. Reliability is key. And how do I know this? because we are REAL GROWERS and have been for years.
Ask kurt from Sentinel who was the first person in AMERICA to buy an all in one greenhouse controller. ME. The first Custom Automated Products green house controller was bought by me in newport beach in like 1998. Still have it, one day i will donate it to the hydro museum
We stay up all night working on our gardens just like you guys. And just like our flips we will REAL WORLD TEST OVER TIME to insure a quality product.
Old school heads know HID smart tried to improve my design and disparage me in the ads they made by claiming my way was "old technology repackaged and sold at a premium". Not many know they bought a LF Series from OC HYDRO before making their own. Or that they used our company story as their own too. Think tank my ass, their company mission statement was verbatim our story. Hell most people think they were out before us.
We just chose not to release a product that had not been real world tested for the duration of the warranty. A warranty is only as good as the company that offers it. And if you have been in business 1-2 years and claim a 3,4,5,whatever year warranty it means nothing. We are going on our 6th year, and not going anywhere!
I appreciate avenger attempting to call out what he saw as b.s. or smoke and mirrors and am in no way trying to argue on the internet. Just trying to justify our design and methods because we stand behind what we do and the reasons we do it. I love growing, it's my passion, and I want to make it easier, more efficient, and rewarding for myself and everyone else. I also love my country and will continue to develop AMERICAN MADE products and employ AMERICANS.
Our next product is days from release and it will change the game for thousands of us. We have been testing it for over a year, in multiple places. Keeping people quiet about it has been hard, financing the research and development has been harder.
Horti-control wasn't started with tons of SBA loans or our rich daddies trust fund. We didn't jump into an industry with above average profit margins for profit, we were already here. We aren't knocking off other peoples ideas because we have our own ideas based on YEARS of indoor growing.
We started with $100 dollars worth of parts, and some cords and receptacles on loan from OC HYDRO. At the time I promised THMF I would work day and night to figure out a way to get our ballasts to do the same. We flipped and flopped that prototype into the ground, trying 20-30 different relays. This has been a slow deliberate road we have traveled and I promise you no one in this universe has spent more time experimenting with flips. Not even my "best arc enemy" nowirenuts. (just joking DB )
thanks for listening to what I have had to say, long winded yes, but that is me. Just a guy who cares about all.... from myself and my family to you and your family. One love, thanks for posting this for me too high
Kris just emailed me this...
"Saying the common neutral dissipates power isjust silly, it flies in the face of the laws of physics. Power doesn't dissipate into nothing, it has to be converted into heat or work of some kind."
neutral wires as far as I can tell from reading and speaking with "qualified" people, eventually dissipate into ground (see wiki) The way i understood it the common neutrals or always leaving the neutral connected lessens the amount of current that builds up during the switch.
Any time you break current flow, you get the arc, whether or not the neutral is switched at the same time or not, the arcing is the same.
not true. I didn't believe the relay manufacturers tech department either until I tried it myself. smaller arc with one wire switched. The first horti units were 1 relay per ballast. when I sent a prototype lf series, ballasts and a few bulbs to the relay tech guys they recommended the common neutrals.
I resisted this idea myself until i tried it, now I have completely shared proprietary info that I believe is the key to our success. not very smart, but whatever.
"The only reason to use one DPDT relay to flip flop two ballasts is to reduce the cost, by reducing the number of relays."
There is another reason too, and jeff was smart enough to realize it. Which BTW was the ONLY reason to make a 1 light flip.
think about this. All consumer electronics have failure rates in excess of 10%. I pods as high as 40% within 4 years!!! Relay manufacturers claim different failure rates..... mine claims 6%. So 6 out of 100 will break or are defective right out of the box. If you built five 20 light flip boxes using 1 relay per ballast, you would use 100 relays. If 6 of those relays are bound to go bad and you have 5 flip boxes the odds are stacked against you
by using half the relays, and i believe the particular relay I use, combined with the mysterious "common neutrals = less arc" And you have a better "forecast for reliability".We have had less than 1 out of 100 returned.... and we didn't sell hundreds yesterday. We have been selling these for 5 + years and i still see those "OG" units with crappy logo, monotone print, and a non piggyback cable popping up in threads of second hand users. I think that speaks volumes and proves we are not only the original but still "THE KING OF FLIPS!"
"And by doing so you leave the bulb that is off, in the live electric circuit. This at the very least should be stated in a warning label on the flip flop unit itself."
I agree. we are currently re doing our instructions and working on etl approval. I will add that info to the literature and maybe even a sticker on the unit.
These replies are rare from me, as I leave the internet sword fighting to people with extra time on their hands. My job is to make the best products I can without a bunch of extra shiny parts and flashing lights to mesmerize you. If it costs more and doesn't make the product better functionally we don't do it. If it adds extra potential problems (like led indicators on the live circuit) we don't do it. Reliability is key. And how do I know this? because we are REAL GROWERS and have been for years.
Ask kurt from Sentinel who was the first person in AMERICA to buy an all in one greenhouse controller. ME. The first Custom Automated Products green house controller was bought by me in newport beach in like 1998. Still have it, one day i will donate it to the hydro museum
We stay up all night working on our gardens just like you guys. And just like our flips we will REAL WORLD TEST OVER TIME to insure a quality product.
Old school heads know HID smart tried to improve my design and disparage me in the ads they made by claiming my way was "old technology repackaged and sold at a premium". Not many know they bought a LF Series from OC HYDRO before making their own. Or that they used our company story as their own too. Think tank my ass, their company mission statement was verbatim our story. Hell most people think they were out before us.
We just chose not to release a product that had not been real world tested for the duration of the warranty. A warranty is only as good as the company that offers it. And if you have been in business 1-2 years and claim a 3,4,5,whatever year warranty it means nothing. We are going on our 6th year, and not going anywhere!
I appreciate avenger attempting to call out what he saw as b.s. or smoke and mirrors and am in no way trying to argue on the internet. Just trying to justify our design and methods because we stand behind what we do and the reasons we do it. I love growing, it's my passion, and I want to make it easier, more efficient, and rewarding for myself and everyone else. I also love my country and will continue to develop AMERICAN MADE products and employ AMERICANS.
Our next product is days from release and it will change the game for thousands of us. We have been testing it for over a year, in multiple places. Keeping people quiet about it has been hard, financing the research and development has been harder.
Horti-control wasn't started with tons of SBA loans or our rich daddies trust fund. We didn't jump into an industry with above average profit margins for profit, we were already here. We aren't knocking off other peoples ideas because we have our own ideas based on YEARS of indoor growing.
We started with $100 dollars worth of parts, and some cords and receptacles on loan from OC HYDRO. At the time I promised THMF I would work day and night to figure out a way to get our ballasts to do the same. We flipped and flopped that prototype into the ground, trying 20-30 different relays. This has been a slow deliberate road we have traveled and I promise you no one in this universe has spent more time experimenting with flips. Not even my "best arc enemy" nowirenuts. (just joking DB
)thanks for listening to what I have had to say, long winded yes, but that is me. Just a guy who cares about all.... from myself and my family to you and your family. One love, thanks for posting this for me too high
any flip works with dig.
u have to timer the dig to turn off, then have the box flip, and then turn dig back on. 15min break with flip in the middle, ull even save .5kwh.
Power box guy jeff told me I didn't have to timer the ballast at all either mag or digi,so far my lumatek is holding up...
It matters not whether I manufacture flipflops for a living. Am I an authority, no. I am just a dude with a computer voicing my concerns.
On 120 volt circuits Neutral conductors do end up making their way back to ground, but dissipate is not a word I would use in this context. However you are a layman, so I will grant you this one.
But in 240 volt circuits, the common conductor at the ballast is connected to one of the 120 volt hot legs that make up the 240 volt potential.
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/ROP/NEC2008Article410-501.pdf
There are two different rules in Article 410—Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures), Lampholders, and Lamps. The first applies to switched lampholders and reads, “410.70 Double-Pole Switched Lampholders. Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors of a circuit, the switching device of lampholders of the switched type shall simultaneously disconnect both conductors of the circuit.”
Auxiliary equipment for electric-discharge luminaires (lighting fixtures) must use double-pole switching where supplied from circuits with two ungrounded conductors. Switching Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors
of a circuit, the switching device of auxiliary equipment shall
simultaneously disconnect all conductors. This requirement is in 410.91.
Current is electrical flow. It does not build up during the switch, or anytime else. It either is, or is not. There either is current, or there is not current.
I've not said your product is not reliable, or funtional, or quality.
All I am saying is that only switching the one conductor with the flipflop leaves current at the unlit bulb when the other bulb is lit.
Thanks for the discussion. Have a nice day and take good care of your customers.
On 120 volt circuits Neutral conductors do end up making their way back to ground, but dissipate is not a word I would use in this context. However you are a layman, so I will grant you this one.
But in 240 volt circuits, the common conductor at the ballast is connected to one of the 120 volt hot legs that make up the 240 volt potential.
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/ROP/NEC2008Article410-501.pdf
There are two different rules in Article 410—Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures), Lampholders, and Lamps. The first applies to switched lampholders and reads, “410.70 Double-Pole Switched Lampholders. Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors of a circuit, the switching device of lampholders of the switched type shall simultaneously disconnect both conductors of the circuit.”
Auxiliary equipment for electric-discharge luminaires (lighting fixtures) must use double-pole switching where supplied from circuits with two ungrounded conductors. Switching Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors
of a circuit, the switching device of auxiliary equipment shall
simultaneously disconnect all conductors. This requirement is in 410.91.
Current is electrical flow. It does not build up during the switch, or anytime else. It either is, or is not. There either is current, or there is not current.
I've not said your product is not reliable, or funtional, or quality.
All I am saying is that only switching the one conductor with the flipflop leaves current at the unlit bulb when the other bulb is lit.
Thanks for the discussion. Have a nice day and take good care of your customers.
