All about Guano

[mad librettist]

FWIW, the use of term "composting" isn't really accurate unless you mean in a compost pile, or do you mean in media?

Well in the sense in which I use it the meaning is much looser, which yes, is technically inaccurate. On the other hand it is more versatile and gets my point across to a wide range of people.

so what would you call it in general? bacterial degradation? I don't know. I want to indicate making it a relatively stable food source for the right microbes I guess.

and what do I call what I do with the worms? I mean, sometimes I get quite a bit of heat (in winter). And I do have outside soil in there. What do I call the castings and mostly finished food items?

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

"Bacterial degradation"? I would use mineralization, solublization or decomposition depending upon the situation. For bat guano that is being broken down by microbes in media or soil as 'food' and also which feeds the plants I would use mineralization or solublization.

What do you mean by "relatively stable food source"? Generally once OM is 'stable', e.g., mature compost, it is not a great 'food source' for microbes because it is stable.

I call the end product of worm farming vermicast, but "mostly finished food items" would not be vermicast unless they are pretty indistinguishable from the vermicast. You are a vermiculturist who practices vermiculture which happens to offer an end product (vermicast) we use for plants.

I have attached an annotated bibliography of vermiculture studies, the terms vermicomposting and vermiculture are often found, as is vermicast; however, the definition one uses for compost is the deciding factor, and AFAIK, hot (thermophilic) composting is what the USCC has defined as compost and composting, Which would mean non-thermophilic OM decomposition by microbes and worms would not be "vermicomposting", or "vermicompost". That said, I am sure people disagree with my stance and will still call it vermicompost and that's fine, I might not be correct, and we all know what we are referring to.

Dominguez, J., Edwards, C.A. and Subler, S. (1997a)
A comparison of vermicomposting and composting. BioCycle, 38 (4): 57-59.

Abstract:

A comparison is given between the 2 of the most efficient methods for converting solid organic residuals into useful products - composting and vermicomposting. Composting is an accelerated bioxidation of organic matter passing through a thermophilic stage where microorganisms liberate heat, carbon dioxide and water. The heterogeneous organic material is transformed into a homogeneous and stabilized humus like product through turning or aeration. Vericomposting is also a bioxidation and stabilization process of organic material that, in contrast to composting, involves the joint action of earthworms and microorganisms and does not involve a thermophilic stage. The earthworms are the agents of turning, fragmentation and aeration. Research in vermicomposting is not developed to the same level as for composting; it is neccesary to know and understand the whole process better in order to make it more efficient.

Annotated Bibliography:
"Literature Review of Worms in Waste Management Volume 2"

HTH

 

[mad librettist]

"Bacterial degradation"? I would use mineralization, solublization or decomposition depending upon the situation. For bat guano that is being broken down by microbes in media or soil as 'food' and also which feeds the plants I would use mineralization or solublization.

I was hoping for a word that doesn't have to be defined every time I use it. Got anything?

What do you mean by "relatively stable food source"? Generally once OM is 'stable', e.g., mature compost, it is not a great 'food source' for microbes because it is stable.

It's biomass fed on the choicest morsels. So it's a food source. Live food. (for soil)

I call the end product of worm farming vermicast, but "mostly finished food items" would not be vermicast unless they are pretty indistinguishable from the vermicast. You are a vermiculturist who practices vermiculture which happens to offer an end product (vermicast) we use for plants.

And I use it almost exclusively as my OM source. And it often heats up. So when I am talking with someone who uses thermophilic compost, since they are functionally near-identical, I use the word compost. it's just simpler, and no significant mistakes are made as a result.

Some uncomposted items things I don't mind adding to my containers: very soft stem fibers, egg shell, seeds from my food,

I have attached an annotated bibliography of vermiculture studies, the terms vermicomposting and vermiculture are often found, as is vermicast; however, the definition one uses for compost is the deciding factor, and AFAIK, hot (thermophilic) composting is what the USCC has defined as compost and composting, Which would mean non-thermophilic OM decomposition by microbes and worms would not be "vermicomposting", or "vermicompost". That said, I am sure people disagree with my stance and will still call it vermicompost and that's fine, I might not be correct, and we all know what we are referring to.

The USCC has no authority over language. Top-down semantics is simply not part of the English tradition. If we were speaking French, or having a conversation as part of some USCC proceeding, this might be a valid point. They can't just take their style of thermophilic composting and decide it's the standard and all others need modifiers. Well they can try, but as you've perhaps noticed, they can't succeed. Rather than insist, why not just go back to calling it thermophilic composting? For the same reason I want to use just one word: it's more efficient.

 

[secondtry]

I was hoping for a word that doesn't have to be defined every time I use it. Got anything?

Why would mineralization need to be defined? It is the term used, as is solublization. There is no need to make new terms IMO, they already exist. We just have to learn what they are. I think most people know what mineralization is...

It's biomass fed on the choicest morsels. So it's a food source. Live food. (for soil)

Yea but what is "choicest morsels"? That is where I am confused, do you mean OM as guano, or OM as stable compost?

And I use it [vermicast] almost exclusively as my OM source. And it often heats up.

Your OM source for what? You soillless media? Finished/mature vermicast should not heat it up, it should be stable like mature compost.

The USCC has no authority over language. Top-down semantics is simply not part of the English tradition.

The USCC is the compost authority in the US, they define compost and you can accept that or not. USCC is valid all over the world, most researchers agree "compost" should be a thermophilic process. I don't want to argue about this, it is what it is, compost is "thermophilic compost" they are one-in-the-same; if it is not thermophilic than it is something else, e.g., "silage", "vermicycling", etc. You can call it anything you like, but you will probably confuse people (esp. experts and scientists).

RE: Worms:
Here is what I will call worm product from now on: "vermicycle", or of course "vermicast"; and instead of the verb "vermicomposting" I will use "vermicycling". Please see the following paper I have attached for the use of this term, it's is where I first read of it and I like it. "Vermicycle" and "vermicycling" are much more accurate, and more correct than vermicompost and vermicomposting.



Janet F.M. Rippy, Mary M. Peet, Frank J. Louws, Paul V. Nelson, David B. Orr, and Kenneth A. Sorensen. circa 2009.

Plant Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems
North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC


HTH
​

 

[mad librettist]

I think most people know what mineralization is...

Well I must be a dummy, because I didn't know until recently. And I must gravitate to dummies, because no one else I know seems to enjoy using this word.

Yea but what is "choicest morsels"? That is where I am confused, do you mean OM as guano, or OM as stable compost?

I mean the substance that comes out my worm bins. Choicest morsels are all the highly nutritious food scraps from veggies meat and cheese that go in my bokashi before the worm bin. My dogs are nuts for bokashi, and would like you to know they are indeed choice morsels.

Your OM source for what? You soillless media? Finished/mature vermicast should not heat it up, it should be stable like mature compost.

It doesn't heat up after, it heats up in the winter when I add lots of bokashi to keep the worms warm. Sometimes I overdo it and i see them in a ring around the edges.

The USCC is the compost authority in the US, they define compost and you can accept that or not. USCC is valid all over the world, most researchers agree "compost" should be a thermophilic process. I don't want to argue about this, it is what it is, compost is "thermophilic compost" they are one-in-the-same; if it is not thermophilic than it is something else, e.g., "silage", "vermicycling", etc. You can call it anything you like, but you will probably confuse people (esp. experts and scientists).

ok, but don't complain when actual people "misuse" the word. And don't get confused when in 20 years accepted usage changes to accommodate more rather than fewer definitions. At that point it's like all adverbs ending in -ly. Every teacher that insisted on it has now been thrust into the minority, and the top-down imposition of latin grammar on English now seems silly.

Please see the following paper I have attached for the use of this term, it's is where I first read of it and I like it. "Vermicycle" and "vermicycling" are much more accurate, and more correct than vermicompost and vermicomposting.

tell you what, you and the USCC can convince everyone to change the way they talk, and i will bring up the rear.

 

[secondtry]

Fair enough. I hope you have a good day, I'm off to walk the pits! They are getting hyper.

 

[mad librettist]

haha me too!

well, one pit mix one jack russel. The jack has to wear a weighted pack to get tired. We are working on dogs behind me at all times even in the woods. After the walk it's frisbee time.

 

[xmobotx]

lol im a dog guy too

wow, the luebke/cmc looks pretty intensive

ironic how ive been making compost for 15 years and never gave it that much consideration -but C/N is a step forward for me (i always just pile up the grass clippings [w/ weeds] manure and garden/kitchen wastes

so, THANKS! for the ibiblio/luebke link ive hunted w/ google and am finding courses but no method

re the compost process as it occurs in the mix or in the garden, I always called that letting the mix/soil "cool" but that gets confusion regarding the ratios of ammendments i.e. people think you are saying they mixed too much ferts when you try to tell them to let it "cool" for a couple weeks

 

[secondtry]

Hey xmobotx,

I like your compost method, simple and highly effective, the green manure is key. I would suggest next time you compost you use a compost fleece (cover). They are similar to landscape cloth and it repels water and UV. It's to cover the pile and the fungi really respond well, it seems to allow then into the surface of the pile. The amount of fungi with vs. without a compost fleece (at least in my situation) was like night and day. Also moisture content is much easier to control and keep in ideal range of 50-60% (with 45-65% being the limits). I can't write enough good stuff about compost covers and the kind from Canada is inexpensive too (see the link for CVCompost below).

Your welcome for the compost info. CMC is intense and also high input. It's intense because it calls for turning of the every day, then tapers off to a once every couple of days. And it's high input from the clay-loam and mineral inputs.

Here is sources of CMC and "CMC-lite" compost in the US:

CMC = MidWest Bio-Systems, the owner learned CMC and than made his own 'style' which is pretty much the same as CMC AFAIK: www.midwestbiosystems.com/

CMC-lite = CVCompost, the owner is a good guy and he also sells compost fleece by the sq foot, not many places do. His compost is "lite" because he doesn't use a lot (any?) mineral inputs as suggested by CMC, i.e., no clay-loam. Regardless, it's great compost and humus rich: www.cvcompost.com



A little in-depth info about my method:
(it's a mix of other methods, taking the best of each to make a hybrid compost method)

In my method I don't' add clay-loam, I add zeolite powder at 10% by dry weight which provides better Ca-clay-humus aggregate formation (in CMC that would be "clay-humus crumb") than clay-loam and binds ammonia form of N along with other elements. I also add humic acid powder which increases CEC and provids better Ca-clay-humus aggregate formation, etc. I add gypsum with manures or other feedstocks with ammonia, the Ca binds the ammonia so it doesn't vaporize into the air and the Ca in gypsum helps form the Ca-clay-humus aggregate form. I add azomite to increase the Ca which provides better Ca-clay-humus aggregate formation and for the other macronutrients like P and K, along with micronutrients. All this lowers nutrient (e.g., N and P) runoff into ground water by increasing CEC and humus fraction, thereby holding onto a greater fraction of N and P.

I turn once a day until the end of the peak heating phase (i.e., every day for about 5-10 days), at that point I turn once every two days until the (second) mesophilic stage at which point I turn every 3-4 days to allow fungi time to 'work'. At this point much lignin is being converted into humus by fungi and some bacteria, so it's best to let them work undisturbed for a few days at a time (assuming proper air porosity and moisture content of pile).

I use high lignin content carbon feedstocks like shredded wheat straw. Lignin in part becomes humus during the thermophilic stage (IIRC that's the "buildup" stage in CMC) and also during the mesophilic/maturation phase (IIRC that's the "breakdown" stage in CMC). Lignin is hard for microbes to breakdown, even microbes known to break down Lignocellulosic material (that's lignin + cellulose) so I pretreat full bales of unspoiled/unwithered wheat staw with liquid compost extraction (LCE for the Bacillus spp. which should be present) and I promote WRF colonization; both organisms, the fungi and bacteria are lignocellulosic material degraders, as are other microbes but they are well known and really good (relatively) at degrading lignin, especially WRF, e.g., Phanerochaete chrysosporium.

IIRC the paper by Steve Diver on CMC doesn't discuss C:N, doesn't it? If not that is also a big difference between what I suggest and CMC. I also suggested allowing/helping the pile reach the "hyperthermophilic" stage during the peak heating phase by using a lower C:N with easily available N and correcting the reported pile % of carbon by adjusting the % carbon into % bio-available carbon (that which is easily used by microbes, not in the from of lignocellulosic material, or high lignin materiel).

Hmm, Im hungry, gotta go. More later if interested or further explanations if needed. All the best

 

[jaykush]

now that sounds like some yummy compost, almost like how i do it except im more lazy lol.

 

[secondtry]

Hey JK,

Thanks, I am pretty happy with it, tho there is definitely room for improvement and further testing. I tried applying oat bran to a pile at start of maturation phase in an attempt to increase populations of actinobacteria (used to be called actinomycetes); I didn't see any difference. This coming summer I am testing the addition of saw dust from non-pressure-treated non-old growth wood; I have read a few papers which showed this increased populations of actinobacteria. I need to look more into it, I am curious by what mechanism the actinobacteria is benefited.


Here are three items I think you would be interested in JK, the first for sure, the second is very relevant to this thread:


1.) Luebke Humus Score test kit :
Should be over 80 for finished compost; ideally above 95. When George Leidig used clay powder (benonite as kitty litter powder) to replace clay-loam at 10-15% by dry weight (IIRC, I have to check my notes) the humus score was 100%, the highest Mr. Leidig had yet seen and he is/was the US lesion for the Luebke Family.

The Luebke humus score for soil/media should be 2:1 to 3:1 as Luebke humus score:OM; thus a media with 5% OM should have a Luebke humus score not below 10-15.
http://www.pikeagri.com/Humus-Testing/Luebke-Humus-Test-Kit/Detailed-product-flyer.html




2.) Bio-Ion Deluxe Soil [or compost] Testing Laboratory:
http://www.pikeagri.com/vmchk/Lab-Equipment/Bio-Ion-DELUXE-Complete-Soil-Testing-Laboratory/Detailed-product-flyer.html

The Bio-Ion Deluxe Soil Testing Laboratory is the kit that we at Pike Agri-Lab supplies have put together to test the availability (to rootlets) of the major plant nutrients of the soil. It contains all the equipment to create a small professional laboratory dedicated to testing the major plant nutrients in soil.

The kit has all the apparatus to test for Ions of:

* Calcium,
* Magnesium,
* Phosphorus,
* Potassium,
* Nitrate and
* ammonium nitrogen,
* and also a Humus test kit.

The farmer needs to know what ratios of elements are in his soil in order to make appropriate ratio amendments to his soil program and to also monitor the affects of the amendments. It is imperative to do this in order to create a top quality soil that creates a top quality produce.

This test relies on using the Morgan Universal Extract Solution (UES) which is a weak organic acid which acts upon soil particles to dissolve nutrients which would likely be made available by the exudent from plant rootlets. This test is often referred to as testing for water soluble nutrients.

3.) Tow behind compost tuner "Mighty Mike":
Offers the same results and turning method as the CMC compost turner:
http://www.frontierindustrial.net/mm.htm

Mighty Mike in action on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJuMkGQS9QM



cya, time for bed

 

[jaykush]

the first link i would be interested in the first if it didn't cost 140$ lol.

the second link i like more, i wonder if it could be used to test nutrient levels in plant extracts. hmmmm...

the third.....damn the mighty mike. dont post that again because i want one every time i see it, and i cant afford one lol.

 

[secondtry]

the first link i would be interested in the first if it didn't cost 140$ lol.

Yea, ha, good point. I was going to suggest the chromatography method as being less expensive and less ideal alternative but nope, it's $134:
http://www.pikeagri.com/Chromatography-Testing/Chroma-Test-Kit/Detailed-product-flyer.html

the second link i like more, i wonder if it could be used to test nutrient levels in plant extracts. hmmmm...

No, but there are leaf sap meters for that. When testing brix levels above 10 is good, but one should account for level of N and K (and P?) is using brix as a metric to quantitate a plant response. Light, N, K (not sure about P), water, etcs, all play key roles in brix levels.

These are on my to get list:

Cardy NO3- Tester (Nitrate Ion Meter)
http://www.pikeagri.com/Nitrate-Ion-Tester/Cardy-NO3-Tester/Detailed-product-flyer.html

Cardy K Tester (Potassium Ion Meter)
http://www.pikeagri.com/Potassium-Ion-Tester/Cardy-K+-Pocket-Tester/Detailed-product-flyer.html

Complete Plant Sap Analysis Kit
(will be using a brix meter that is high quality NIST certified (I hiope) once I find one)
http://www.pikeagri.com/Complete-Pl...-Sap-Analysis-Kit/Detailed-product-flyer.html

the third.....damn the mighty mike. dont post that again because i want one every time i see it, and i cant afford one lol.

Hehe. Me either, I am hoping to meet some people who may want to spit the cost. Or just save my coins for a tractor and the mighty mike, I *love* the water tank.

One day the lab will be complete...I hope

 

[jaykush]

well i was thinking the second link for plant extracts because it says.

This test relies on using the Morgan Universal Extract Solution (UES) which is a weak organic acid which acts upon soil particles to dissolve nutrients which would likely be made available by the exudent from plant rootlets. This test is often referred to as testing for water soluble nutrients.

which is basically how the plant extracts i make work. i dont want to test the leaf itself although that would be really cool.

 

[secondtry]

Ah, OK.

My bad. But yea that leaf test kit would be great, do biological organic growing vs. conventional growing side by side under the same lamp and see the differences in N and K in the leaf. Those are some things I want to do...

 

[Microbeman]

I forgot I was going to tell you the soil test kit I got (as well as tissue test kit) which I ultimately found to be of little value. I got the top of the line from below with refills of all solutions (around $1800 delivered)

http://www.lamotte.com/pages/soil/modelsth.html

 

[Microbeman]

Ah, OK.

My bad. But yea that leaf test kit would be great, do biological organic growing vs. conventional growing side by side under the same lamp and see the differences in N and K in the leaf. Those are some things I want to do...

Better prepare to get a proper laboratory. Wanna split that? 100K each? haha

 

[secondtry]

Better prepare to get a proper laboratory. Wanna split that? 100K each? haha

Yes I actually do! But not for a couple of years, maybe 5 or so. I have a list of equipment I want to get within a next two years and that's about $20k, tools you would find applications for I am sure.

I have a feeling it will all work out...

 

[secondtry]

I forgot I was going to tell you the soil test kit I got (as well as tissue test kit) which I ultimately found to be of little value. I got the top of the line from below with refills of all solutions (around $1800 delivered)

http://www.lamotte.com/pages/soil/modelsth.html

Great thanks. I will go check that out. It is what I fear from the Bio-Ion kit I posted, more hype then help.

High on my to-get list is GC/MS and sooner than that HPLC. Those would offer useful and analytical results for many various tests. What first 'big ticket' equipment tools do you want?

I have been designing an analytical TLC method for semi-quantitative assays of cannabinoids and other secondary metabolites of cannabis; I have a TLC kit I bought from a company who doesn't sell to the public, but to police, DEA, etc. I bought their TLC kit which uses the same reagent and mobile phase I plan to; neat stuff for sure but their kit is junk, it will work but the methods they use are far from repeatable and analytical.

A neat point is that I fond a method to use TLC for Rubiso assays. That means I can use semi-quantitative (comparative) TLC tests to find peak Rubisco points which is a crude way to 'judge' photosynthesis and is an important piece of info to know in it's own right because Rubisco is a limiting factor to photosynthesis.

All the best

 

[PetFlora]

Is it stable in an aeroponic system?

Is it stable in an aeroponic system?

I am impressed at the number of professional composters posting here. Honestly, I had no idea! Are you all self trained, or did you major in science, and horticulture?

I have an AS degree (2 year pre-med/dent, but that was over 35 years ago. OUCH, but I am putting it to use now. Plan to use this to grow my own fruits and vegetables using a DYI version of NASAs system.

I am wondering if composting teas can be applied to aeroponics

TRUE AERO ENVIRONMENT:

I have 3G of nutes in my reservoir, maintained between 65-78 degrees. pH is maintained at 5.5-5.9. During veg the nutes get changed once a month. During bloom weekly. Outside the res is a 200 mesh inline filter.

The nutes are sprayed under high pressure (50-100) into a dark fully enclosed root chamber, or pod, through 0.9gph fog heads, at intervals of 2 seconds on/4-5 minute pause; 24/7. My roots hang in the dark @ 70- 80 degree humidity.



The res has one 12" bubble stone, but If need be, I could add more stones, or get an aquarium waterfall, where all the nutes are circulated through a very coarse screen (which is removable) they then spill onto a wide troff where they fall some 10+ inches back into the reservoir.

So, my questions is/are: Can/Does anyone make a compost tea that is stable in an aeroponic environment, and if so

1. Would I need to do something special like adding the waterfall?

2. is anyone selling it?

3. Do you have different teas based on grow vs bloom?

Thanks