All about Guano

[mad librettist]

rrog, it's not just whether a nutrient source is soluble or needs to be processed by microbes to be plant ready. It's which microbes it feeds, how much, and how fast.

When we say "I feed the soil", that is the beginning of the road, not the end. You can camp out there, but there is more to travel.

 

[Organi-class]

Something to bring up,
Upon the addition of top dressing your soil with guano ( healthy LIVE soil..) what time period do many see that a secondary addition needs to be made?
Just curious of the opinions, thanks!

 

[rrog]

mad-lib. Not sure what you're saying.

I'm saying that based on my reading, that my current opinion is that not much if any Phosphorus needs to be added during flower. Also, that adding very readily available (water soluble) Phosphorus will screw with the Fungi.

Obviously you'd pre-load the soil or whatever with amendments to be used during the entire grow.

 

[mad librettist]

mad-lib. Not sure what you're saying.

I'm saying that based on my reading, that my current opinion is that not much if any Phosphorus needs to be added during flower. Also, that adding very readily available (water soluble) Phosphorus will screw with the Fungi.

Obviously you'd pre-load the soil or whatever with amendments to be used during the entire grow.

sorry, I was reading all your posts in this thread and you seemed to be searching like me.

I suggest learning more about the nutrient cycle, specifically the mineralization of P.

As the famous and infamous, and extremely educational but alas purged thread by ganja din concluded, there is no particularly great reason to kill yourself trying to get AM to grow on non AM-obligatory plants. There are looser fungal relationships that can provide everything cannabis needs. I also feel cannabis does not need a soil as fungally dominated as the AM-obligatory plants you'll find in a yard.

guano or no guano, you can manage to feed your soil balanced nutrition.

Hopefully some of the guys here will be doing an organized reading of "teaming with microbes" when the new edition comes out on the 15th of february 2010.

 

[rrog]

I suggest learning more about the nutrient cycle, specifically the mineralization of P.

That's what I'm here for, for sure.

There is no particularly great reason to kill yourself trying to get AM to grow on non AM-obligatory plants. There are looser fungal relationships that can provide everything cannabis needs.

I'm not thinking anyone is killing themselves. The establishment of the AM relationship seems to be quite easy. Almost unavoidable, really. As far as the benefit, obviously Cannabis isn't an AM obligate, since it thrives in sterile hydroponic setups. That doesn't mean that there aren't great benefits.

I also feel cannabis does not need a soil as fungally dominated as the AM-obligatory plants you'll find in a yard.

Right. That's the difference between an AM obligate and a not obligate. Again, this isn't to say that an AM relationship isn't mutually beneficial.

Hopefully some of the guys here will be doing an organized reading of "teaming with microbes" when the new edition comes out on the 15th of february 2010.

I'd look forward to any source that can shed light on this situation. I'm a data-driven individual. I follow the data and if there's any data to support that AM Fungi establishment in my grow is a wasted effort, I'd very much appreciate being directed to said data.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I'd look forward to any source that can shed light on this situation. I'm a data-driven individual. I follow the data and if there's any data to support that AM Fungi establishment in my grow is a wasted effort, I'd very much appreciate being directed to said data.

rrog

Would a visual example (from you own garden) suffice?

Here's one test you might run but this is assuming that you're rooting in some kind of potting soil - preferably one that is a 'blank soil' meaning that there is no compost.

I took some micronized mycorrhizae fungai from Mycorrhizae.com and added 1 tsp. to each quart of potting soil and mixed well.

I placed the cuttings into this mix as well as an exact mix without the fungai.

The results were that the treated medium had much larger roots, more root mass, etc. I waited to check all of them when the roots were beginning to show in the bottom of the seedling tray and not when the first cutting showed roots.

It was also true that roots in the treated medium didn't necessarily root any faster but when they did begin to set roots then the root growth was definitely enhanced.

Anecdotal to be sure.

CC

 

[rrog]

Thank you CC. Very kind of you to share that with us. Anecdotal is great. Actually that's a bit more than anecdotal, as you had some controls in place.

I am open minded but want to see data that our time might be wasted looking into AM Fungi. Generally everything I've read follows your positive experience.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

rrog

I should have mentioned that the test included 4 strains of basil (from Southeast Asia) and we did 200 cuttings in each medium in a greenhouse environment with humidity and temperature controls in place. No CO2 enrichment - who can afford it?

Of the 4 strains, one from Cambodia (purple in color with red highlights) took the longest to root in both mediums.

So it wasn't cannabis plants that I was testing with - I thought I should add that as this is a cannabis board.

HTH

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I am open minded but want to see data that our time might be wasted looking into AM Fungi.

rrog

Here's a couple of sources for that you might want to consider:

Mycorrhizae And Plant Health / edited by F.L. Pfleger and R.G. Linderman.

This publication is based ... on presentations from a symposium entitled "A Reappraisal of Mycorrhizae in Plant Health" held in conjunction with the annual meeting of The American Phytopathological Society, August 12, 1992, in Portland, Oregon.

The Ecology Of Mycorrhizae / Michael F. Allen

This is a complitation of studies conducted at Cambridge University.

HTH

CC

 

[VerdantGreen]

....

I'm saying that based on my reading, that my current opinion is that not much if any Phosphorus needs to be added during flower. Also, that adding very readily available (water soluble) Phosphorus will screw with the Fungi.

Obviously you'd pre-load the soil or whatever with amendments to be used during the entire grow.

hey rrog make sure you come back and give us a smoke report on that fungi

im joking, but seriously i can tell you that mj definitely needs plenty of P during flower and it can easily be provided by guano and or other suitable amendments. perhaps in open ground or HUGE pots myco may be able to provide this from elsewhere but i think you need to take a step back and remember that it is weed and not myco that you want to harvest at the end of your grow.

you also need to consider how long it might take for the myco to establish.

V.

 

[jaykush]

you also need to consider how long it might take for the myco to establish.

from my observations, its about 2 weeks if done at seedling or clone stage. then its colonized for the rest of its life. the plant dies, the mycos sporulate and you never have to inoculate again.

 

[Montana]

getting wrapped up in so much information is not neccessary, seems alot of growers do this.

All you need do to supply sufficient fungi is add some good compost, mico can be prepared in your compost by adding leaves.

 

[rrog]

mj definitely needs plenty of P during flower and it can easily be provided by guano and or other suitable amendments.

We know MJ needs plenty of P. That's why we're discussing it. I picked up on this Guano thread because of its use to supply P. Maybe I've hijacked this thread, and if so I apologize, but my point has been that IF we have a fungal relationship, we may not need to add all the P sources that we do.

getting wrapped up in so much information is not neccessary, seems alot of growers do this.

All you need do to supply sufficient fungi is add some good compost, mico can be prepared in your compost by adding leaves.

Trying to understand the biology of it all Montana. That's all. Obviously some of us want to know more.

 

[Montana]

yes of course, I just see way too many people get all caught up with knitpicky details of information that are not necessary.

This plant will grow in mud.

not to say that understanding the biology of it all is unecassary, I just don't want to see anyone ruin their grow because they are paying attention to the wrong details.

 

[mad librettist]

This plant will not grow in mud... Or wetlands as far as I know.


It will, however, grow very well with or without mycorrhizal association, an in all types of soil, i suspect depending on variety. So that's pretty low on my list. I throw it in there, as it's cheap, and I forget it. If this were a tree, I would try harder. If I were growing outside again, I would try harder. But I'm getting great results without thinking about it. And no, I'm not pulling out my roots to see. They are staying in the pot until the next round.

On the other hand, I can now successfully transplant squash.

there are so many fungi that need to be in your soil. Do any of you know the other ones? Because I don't. Kind of a shame.

 

[Microbeman]

I spent some time today trying to gain further understanding of NPK analysis as noted on fertilizers and it does appear that the numbers do represent ionic form nutrient with the possible exception of Phosphorus. Therefore the low number of 5% for available nutrients in guano may be as high as 13% for individual nutrients in some products. I'm continuing to try to get this straight. It is still a little confusing. Here is a quote from a Canadian government website which is probably pretty standard;

"Total nitrogen (N), available phosphoric acid (P2O5), and soluble potash (K2O) are guaranteed as a minimum amount expressed in percent, in whole numbers for mixed fertilizers. Phosphorous and potash are expressed as oxides (phosphoric acid (P2O5) and potassium oxide (K2O)). Only that portion of phosphoric acid that is available must be guaranteed, except for untreated organic phosphate (e.g. P2O5 from bone meal) and rock phosphates, in which case total P2O5 must be guaranteed as well. Potash is guaranteed as that portion which is soluble."

 

[Trichgnomes]

All you need do to supply sufficient fungi is add some good compost, mico can be prepared in your compost by adding leaves.

Which types of fungi are you referring to? Most likely saprophytes, with the possibility of some endophytes, but I find it doubtful that one will find any mycorrhizal fungal spores in his/her compost.
Obviously a technical scientific understanding is not necessary, but I see nothing but benefits from trying to seek such knowledge.

there are so many fungi that need to be in your soil. Do any of you know the other ones? Because I don't. Kind of a shame.

I mentioned this the other day. Fungi that form mycorrhizal relationships get all the credit, and we rely on other types of fungi all the time, some of us just do not understand their roles as well. (Myself included)

 

[PetFlora]

It seems we have all been misled by the amount of P our plants need in bloom.

I watched Big Mike's video (Advanced Nutrients) on why his bloom boosters are the best.

Well, he used charts from an independent laboratory who analysed mjs needs in veg and in bloom. Look at those charts. In both cases the need for P was very low! The proper balance was closer to 7-2-7 in both cases.

Anybody have any technical insight on this?

 

[rrog]

With so many commercial businesses involved, it's tough to say what we really need and don't need. Everyone talks about the huge Phosphorus need during flower, but hell if I know how much is really necessary.

I feel we overdo much of the feeding, and I'm looking to simmer down this aspect of my grow and shoot for a balance. As is found in nature.

 

[PetFlora]

Most people overdue everything. In veg, I start around 200 and work up to 600. In bloom 600-800, but I am using advanced nutrient delivery in a TRUE aeroponic grow pod. Nutes are delivered 24/7 at 80+ psi for less than 2 seconds, followed by 4-5 minutes pause.