Integrated Pest Management - is it just for chem heads?

[mad librettist]

I know most of us grow our cannabis indoors, but I'm wondering if anyone tries to apply the principles of IPM to all types of growing.

What does organic pest control mean to you? is there a system or process you follow? Are OMRI approved products so safe they can be used perpetually? Is it wise to follow the same harm reduction strategy with all pesticides, organic and otherwise, regardless of the perceived dangers?

please no bickering for at least 10 replies.

 

[jaykush]

omri = nothing but a paid for logo.

 

[quadracer]

Yeah IPM can be used with organic methods, and should be used with organic methods. Applied outdoors, it can be combined with such strategies as companion planting, and other beneficial farming practices.

 

[DARC MIND]

just for chem heads??

just for chem heads??

i took some courses on ipm and im pretty sure the last resort is to use harmful chems. the idea is to diversify your pest management program using the many less hazardist methods before even considering pesticides. (then the natural pesticides are recommended first)

heres a simple defention:
Integrated Pest Management (IPM) is an effective and environmentally sensitive approach to pest management that relies on a combination of common-sense practices. IPM programs use current, comprehensive information on the life cycles of pests and their interaction with the environment. This information, in combination with available pest control methods, is used to manage pest damage by the most economical means, and with the least possible hazard to people, property, and the environment.
The IPM approach can be applied to both agricultural and non-agricultural settings, such as the home, garden, and workplace. IPM takes advantage of all appropriate pest management options including, but not limited to, the judicious use of pesticides.
In contrast, organic food production applies many of the same concepts as IPM but limits the use of pesticides to those that are produced from natural sources, as opposed to synthetic chemicals.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

omri = nothing but a paid for logo.

Yes it is.

Here's what they post on their website in the 'About' page:

About OMRI

The Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) is a national nonprofit organization that determines which input products are allowed for use in organic production and processing. OMRI Listed—or approved—products may be used on operations that are certified organic under the USDA National Organic Program. OMRI's funding comes from a variety of sources, including sales of publications, grants, donations, and subscriptions. Mainly, however, the organization generates income through fees collected for the review of products intended for use in organic production or processing. Also, OMRI operates an organic seed information service to help growers find organic seeds.

Organizational Structure

A professional staff of 17 run the organization's various programs and administration out of the Eugene, Oregon office. The OMRI staff is governed by a Board of Directors, which is broadly representative of the organic industry. Board members represents certifiers, farmers, input suppliers, processors, handlers, consumer organizations, and animal welfare and environmental groups. The OMRI Advisory Council is composed of independent, professional experts from industry, academia, and public interest groups in the organic community. The Advisory Council makes policies and standards recommendations to the Board of Directors. There are three OMRI Review Panels: Crops, Livestock, and Processing and Handling. They make decisions on product applications for the OMRI Review Program.

Heh........

CC

 

[MrFista]

Entymology is a huge gap in my learning. Almost every time I'm in the garden I find a new creature and sit there staring at it - WTF? Is it eating my plants, my roots, the aphids, wTF???

And sometimes the WTF creature is good like ladybug larvae and sometimes it's a cutworm...

So I go to an entymologist and ask - how do I learn about all out horticultural pests... - no such paper here!

So that poor man gets question time from me every week. Still, not so bad, I found him a new species...

Tell me everything you know, I am the apprentice.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

An agreed definition on what a pesticide is and what it is not might be helpful. At least from a legal/regulatory definition.

So I'll start with the page from the federal EPA - What Is a Pesticide?

At least that's a start..........

CC

 

[DARC MIND]

this may help fista
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74140.html

 

[mad librettist]

regicide = killing the king
fratricide = killing a brother
patricide = killing a father

pesticide = killing pests.


so this word is distinct from herbicide, fungicide, insecticide, bactericide, or miticide. but all of those things are pesticides when used to kill pests. If you use roundup to kill weeds competing with your roundup ready corn, it's a pesticide. the weeds are pests. however if you made a canvas of grass, then used roundup to write a message in big letters, it's not a pesticide, but is still an herbicide.

some might say pests have to move. I'm not so picky. If it's causing economic harm it's a pest.

so: a pest is an organism of another species whose interests run counter to your own. I have no citations for this. don't need em.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Which agency's rules/regulations are you using? FDA? USDA? EPA? - that's for the federal agencies and regulations.

Then move on to state laws and agencies. Not to mention the rules put in place on specific food crops by the marketing co-ops, etc.

CC

 

[*Journeyman*]

Are OMRI approved products so safe they can be used perpetually?

OMRI is kind of a joke. I believe they approve EDTA processed calcium products and when you put that stuff on soil you'll wreak havoc with your microlife. Oregon Tilth is also messed up. We had an inspection and I was talking to the dude and asked if OT approved potassium hydroxide extracted humic acids as organic and he said yes and then just bit my tounge...lol.

I believe now it's OK for 'organic' producers to use something like Milorganite (basically sewage sludge IMO) to fertilize crops. Walmart was behind a big push to loosen the organic guidelines so they could obtain a supply of 'organic' produce en masse.

I say forget about any stamp you see on a product, do your own research and think for yourself.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

OMRI is kind of a joke. I believe they approve EDTA processed calcium products and when you put that stuff on soil you'll wreak havoc with your microlife. Oregon Tilth is also messed up. We had an inspection and I was talking to the dude and asked if OT approved potassium hydroxide extracted humic acids as organic and he said yes and then just bit my tounge...lol.

Having helped an associate trying to get his EWC's 'certified' (real term: listed) I'd say that OMRI is a complete and total joke.

Oregon Tilth is a shadow of what it once was. If you're familiar with a company based in Eugene, Oregon called 'Organically Grown Company' (formerly known as Organically Grown Co-Op which it once was) and the very lucrative deals their produce merchandiser made with growers all over the Pacific Northwest and specifically in the Mid-Willamette growing district. If you know of these folks I'll send you a PM on the whole debacle that pretty much put OT into the tailspin.

OT approves a number of agents that cause more than a few raised eyebrows. Sad story all the way around. I quit paying my dues several years ago but I still hit their regional meetings because of the suppliers that they bring in (a mini trade show) where you can talk directly with the science guys and not the sales people.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Which agency's rules/regulations are you using? FDA? USDA? EPA? - that's for the federal agencies and regulations.

Then move on to state laws and agencies. Not to mention the rules put in place on specific food crops by the marketing co-ops, etc.

CC

man, you bickered before 10 posts were completed. We start at 1, not zero, so post #11 should get the first bicker.

ok, I must ask, do I need the government to formulate my thoughts? Or is the government supposed to reflect the thinking of its people? Are the agencies you listed infallible? Ruled by science? Are we capable of deciding these things without the government? Is common sense only for certain members of society?

FDA? are you serious? those jokers? the people who have been telling is bisphenol-a is safe? pthalates? who just recently admitted they need to revise toxicology methods to include endocrine disruption studies?

Let's try thinking for ourselves, and not turn to blatant chauvinism. You want to read what the FDA says about cannabis? What the EPA said about co2 just 4 years ago? Are cannabis laws based on science or reason?

There are many legal jurisdictions with conflicting definitions covered by this website. While our countries won't all agree on laws (neem is leaf polish only in canada, and it is illegal to use it as a pesticide.), we can have a rational discussion on the english language. So please, can we just drop the "show me the law that proves you can think that" routine? It's not productive, and it's kind of upsetting coming from someone so respected.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Got it! You're back to talking about your 'feelings' and what you 'think' and do not wish to have a discussion of facts.

Thanks!

CC

 

[*Journeyman*]

What does organic pest control mean to you?

Growing the healthiest plants I can because pests (and diseases) love weak plants . Phil Callahan is a good person to read up on about how insects function. Gary Zimmer has some good insight here. He believes it is very difficult to have pest issues when plant brix is above 12 and pretty rare actually. Bruce Tainio also did some work monitoring plant frequencies in regards to plant health and pests/diseases but also plant sap pH. The further you get away from a sap pH of 6.4, and it's usually lower, the greater chance you'll have problems. Pests love plants with low brix and ones with tons of excess N and incomplete proteins in the leaves for starters. They will give off infrared and chemical scent signatures and I think mainly due to growers trying to circumvent natural law and force feed plants, trying to 'push' them, use salts, etc. Not saying you can't grow organically and have weak plants

 

[*Journeyman*]

If you know of these folks I'll send you a PM on the whole debacle that pretty much put OT into the tailspin.

Naw...don't know anything about that situation and don't care really. I just know the OMRI and OTCO stamp does not mean too much to me except we need the OTCO stamp to sell our stuff in the health food industry as organic and regardless our stuff is organic anyway but gotta pay up mainly for other companies that use our material and want it to be 'certified' organic.

 

[mad librettist]

Got it! You're back to talking about your 'feelings' and what you 'think' and do not wish to have a discussion of facts.

Thanks!

CC

were there pesticides before there were regulatory agencies?

 

[Trichgnomes]

Entymology is a huge gap in my learning. Almost every time I'm in the garden I find a new creature and sit there staring at it - WTF? Is it eating my plants, my roots, the aphids, wTF???

And sometimes the WTF creature is good like ladybug larvae and sometimes it's a cutworm...

So I go to an entymologist and ask - how do I learn about all out horticultural pests... - no such paper here!

So that poor man gets question time from me every week. Still, not so bad, I found him a new species...

Tell me everything you know, I am the apprentice.

I don't really have to much knowledge in the realm of entomology, but I was gifted this sweet book entitled, "Garden Insects of North America-- The Ultimate Guide to Backyard Bugs."
It is by Whitney Cranshaw, a professor of entomology at Colorado State University, and has written a few other books, specifically dealing with IPM. The one I have is just a broad range identification and informational book, with some IPM stuff thrown it. It is great for knowing what is what though, and it is pretty extensive. The back of it boasts covering "over 1400 species-more than twice as many in other field guides."
I don't know how many pictures, but it is about 600 pages, and the back vaguely states
"full-color photos for most species--more than five times the number in most comparable guides,"
whatever that means. I guess if one has a collection of entomology guides then that statement would not seem so lacking in description and context. Regardless, it is a good one to add to any gardener's collection.

 

[mad librettist]

EU definition of a pesticide according to this EU publication:

2.1. General context
Pesticides are active substances and products that have the inherent potential to kill or control harmful or unwanted organisms – such as pests and weeds. They can be used in agriculture or to control the growth of plants on non-agricultural surfaces (plant protection products), or for other purposes (biocidal products).

my definition was

so this word is distinct from herbicide, fungicide, insecticide, bactericide, or miticide. but all of those things are pesticides when used to kill pests. If you use roundup to kill weeds competing with your roundup ready corn, it's a pesticide. the weeds are pests. however if you made a canvas of grass, then used roundup to write a message in big letters, it's not a pesticide, but is still an herbicide.

some might say pests have to move. I'm not so picky. If it's causing economic harm it's a pest.

so: a pest is an organism of another species whose interests run counter to your own. I have no citations for this. don't need em.

so my apologies, I was too narrow, and failed to include substances that merely control pests.

can we stop ragging on me now, and get on with this conversation? I'll meet any polite demands for evidence as best I can, can I expect the same in return from any one challenging information?

 

[*Journeyman*]

I got this book by Phillip Callahan but have not gotten to it yet...Tuning into Nature:

This 25th anniversary edition, updated by the author, reveals the miraculous communication systems present in nature. Learn how plants and insects communicate through emissions in the infrared frequency range and why poisonous pesticides do not solve the real problems facing agriculture. In this breakthrough book Phil Callahan uncovers why certain insects are attracted only to certain plants, the role of pheromones work in nature, and how plants under stress literally signal insects to come devour them.

Bruce Tainio developed many 'new' species of plants mainly to develop pest/disease resistance but lo and behold while it worked initially nature eventually found a way around his tinkering...lol. You can't fool Mother Nature

Phillip Callahan is now senile unfortunately and Bruce Tainio died late December but would have been nice to chat with both of them. I know people that worked with both Phillip and Bruce and for sure they each had something unique to offer. For the most part pests/diseases attack weak plants. They are nature's cleanup crew.