Fuel
Active member
How do I make a new strain?
In wanting something truly new in your cone, from the start.
It's where the culture and the knownledge of the the breeder will produce it's own difference in the jungle.
Have a good numbers of smokes in head and to known the classics is more than helpfull too.
For me a breeder is a compulsive smoker never satisfyed.
Is it best to go to countries like India, Thailand, mexico and so on, and collect land-race seeds?
The landraces are a smoke than i appreciate by nature, a little mystic, raw, but so rich in all aspects. A fews seedbanks are (near to) specialized in this vein of breeding and avoid the necessity to take risks and lost time far from the breeding lab'.
In another hand, with a minimal formation in geology, you're able to study and report exactly the original conditions in being in the natural cultivar. It's possible on a computer, but in selection it make a difference for a potential preservation to have viewed, smelled and touched the natural dominant phenotypes.
Then once I have that seed enter into a breeding program with them?
Not necessary, but it's important to planify a reproduction for this raw blood on long term. If not, the travel, the time, the money invested in the adventure is a pure waste. Before get a plane ticket, you have to be sure to be passionnated by the strain and known near to all his story for find the best sources of genetic.
Would I find all the phenotypes (various smells, yields, heights, colours etc etc) I need within them seeds given that I had the space to propagate them?
You generally encounter two genotypes in landraces wich fight for the domination without any end. It's in fact a local equilibrum conditionned to the weather, soil, nutrients available etc...
It's when the purists insult the breeders to don't propagate the whole gens over theyr lines wich passed over a selection.
It's when you must split your personnal goals too. Preservation or strains creation, both are mathematically incompatible. One hand select, one hand mix... it's counter productive. And It's not the same type of share too.
If you want extract some landraces specificity (taste, yield etc..) to create a new strain, you're not so concerned by the purist way but more by the selection itself.
Would I find something SPECIAL by crossing them, then when you've found that SPECIAL plant you just have to stabilise it to an IBL and it's ready to market and sell?
Readed like that i'm feeling like a magician to be cannabically curious, thanks.
Special, depend on the background you have on the different strains of the market. You personnal tastes too. For that it's better to view the breeding in the representative tastes you have and express them in different strains. Over to aim an ultimate strain for start wich can't exist universally.
In the case of your special mean a phenotype (recessive), the usual way is to use the backcrossing process and fix the trait like that. To breed recessive is not impossible, but not without experience.
In the case of your special mean a shared traits (dominant), the way to stabilize it is simple : find the right couple in selection.
But the inbreeding is a very long process wich give his results apprently not like you imagine. It's nothing to have with a F1 or a S1 population, and if you make a blind grow test the grower will always choose the F1/S1 version for the performance (in fact the facility).
The market is not ready for IBLs in my opinion, or maybe i understimate the number of growers bored.
Can you order reliable land-race seeds on-line? If so do you have a link?
Recently i was happy with The Real Seed Company(try a goggle with), fresh seeds in bonus. But many others purpose this service with seriousness or not... the better guide will be growers with theyr grow logs.
So I understand that it is wrong to steal other peoples work and call it your own, but what if company A's-plant A has the purple phenotype or a lemon taste phenotype that you would like to add to your land-race breeding program, is this ripping off too?
Good point. My opinion is not neutral on it, fully pirate in the vein for be clear.
First, the genetic code is not a product with a barcod for me. Even if in our moderns days it's false legally lol Do you have patented your person ? Sorry.
From this point i don't feel me like a stealer when i use one blood or one another, not more than the source wich used another source with... we're in 2010,the hybridism have reached fews levels since the start of the cannabis adventure.
Now the work done on the strain and his place have an importance for me. In the case of all bloods i use for have fun, i keep a track of each initial source and share it. The transparency mustn't be a problem or you really do a bad thing : just hack in S1 a catalog without any work, or sell F2 for your creation with fakes references. Call a F2 or a F3 a true IBL etc...
It's enoughly used with est. seedbanks, so... i invite you to share your informations for change the things, or at least for try it.
I would love to get into the whole breeding scene but there is still a lot I need to learn before I start. I am going to do some practise projects as soon as I am in a new property with a few different sets of seeds I have, sort of a 'learn as you go' situation.
The whole breeding scene is a concept wich represent your own taste and curiosity about cannabis strains and seeds. I recall my previous mention on the culture.
And learn the soonest possible by yourself, in practice, is the better thing for known soon if you're ready to sacrify your time and money on it for have results later. Big populations from the start is a very good school and learn all wich must be forgeted from theory lol
So if any one could help on this matter it would be greatly appreciated-it would be interesting to get some breeder input on this topic if they get chance to browse this thread.
And share theyr secrets ? you're mad
Specific environmental conditions are often required for certain phenotypic expressions from a given genotype. If the available nutrients, hours of sunlight, or other conditions are not available then the development of the plant will be altered. These conditions are referred to as "environmental triggers."
It's where the selection enter in game in my opinion, when the preservation is limited to be shared with connoisseur only. Have the presence of both maintain a good diversity of seedbanks, on the paper.
Breeding is a matter of through many generations stablizing and selecting favorable traits. A lot of new school breeders are simply working with strains and cuts that are available from other people, refining them and perfecting them. Others go about it the way you mentioned, finding landrace strains and working from there.
I share. But it's not necessary absolute and somes do the both (with sucess or not). I think sincerely than peoples are better skilled for what they love, so like a bee you can taste some fine pollens and make your own nectar with.
Even if it's pure hacking, if you do better than the original you're welcome for me lol It's a form of natural selection.
But yes, outside this idealism, we can't say than it's the case actually.
So Bazarocka if I was to bring a Indica strain back from India and I didn't give it the same conditions it recieved there then I could lock out a particular pheno ie purple pheno?
Forget the dominant afghani standart of the market when you say "indica strain back from india".
In this specific case you don't lock anything but reproduce the triggers for stimulate the genetic. You "breed" your crop for fight against any acclimatation and natural selection, so in absolute against the lost of any phenotype (all are selected, no selection).
Now, you can choose to adapt this trait for indoor conditions in selecting specimens wich show the trait X in normal conditions encountered by the growers with wich you will share you strain (indoor or outdoor strain etc...).
If you make it for you only, you need only to launch a hughe selection and find the correct motherplant.
But breed a strain wich is very complex to grow is not to optimize his chance to survive in crops, finally.
So is that 10,000 of each male/female land-race genetics your suggesting or any genetics-just make sure I grow out a huge selection is your main point though yes?
10K specimens can be the whole specimens you select in one life too, and don't limit you to make bad weed in breeding. If you make your better with what you have for start, it's enough to enjoy your passion and let it eat your life days after days lol
i agree,,,,from what i have read, Landrace are DEFO way way more homogeneous than a poly or di-hybrid,,,,,,,,it seems to me,that stabilizing a poly is a whole other ballgame compared to stabilizing a Landrace
Erf, you're rude lol
Some polyhybridisms can be very hard, like stabilize the cheese pheno in the skunk for quote one. If it was easy, Sam was the first to release it in regular form in my opinion, it's his baby after all.
And in the other hand, to breed landrace is very not as easy than hybrids! They are not generous, the phenotypes numerous without a map, for some take 6 months to reproduce... no, it's a hard game. They are more homogenous generation after generation yes, but from theyr initial point of stability. Nothing to have with a skunk hybrid in F1, for an example.
Hi Medmaker420, hey man the hash must be good because the 'ramble' made perfect sense. I think ill be doing a little bit of pollen chucking to start, just to get to grips with documenting, feeding, seed collection, seed storing etc. When I am up to date with all my methods and have raised enough money-then I'll start the real project.
To finalize his own methodism is the long way of this affair, and it never happend in fact. You will ever find a new thing to digg or explore with cannabis.
Hi Megas, would you not find more stable genetics from land-race seeds and less stable in a companies F1 seeds?
Also you mentioned that it might be nice ditch weed if I sourced the seeds from say India for instance, but aren't some of the best seeds you get on the market made from these host countries anyway?
For example Black Widow=Brazilian Sativa x South Indian Hybrid.
You forget a lot of thaï wich played in a fews hybrid. For the most known, the blueberry.
Over to focus on the assembly, it's better to remember yourself than the selection will do all the difference. Firstly, to work with the strains wich have the "feeling" with you in certain manner.
So using the land-race for the dad/mom would help stabilise the end product faster than using two comm strains?
You under-estimate the power of a phenotype on the stability of a given offspring, even in F1. Sometimes it will be a simple affair of an impossible female or male, without any consideration for the strain. For that it's better to select your females and males by groups or to create multiple lines as a "fail safe" option.
But using a landrace don't help to stabilize a F1.
But another landrace yes, it create a lifted F1 wich is more stable than the two sources.
So are there more genotypes in poly/di-hybrids than there are in land-race? Is that why it's easier to stabilise?
The reverse in fact. The nature generally act like a hard but equilibrated breeder, in keeping the populations in a minimal diversity of phénotypes. It preserve the new generations hopes in certain manner, and the main trait will be the chances to survive and not the chances to taste the citrus or send your head on orbit, wich will be more a collateral effect or a linked trait in the landrace state.
But at a certain point of polyhybridism you have the same type of diversity than a landrace. I think about the case of a perpertual F1 of the homebreeder wich cross each generation his favorite female cut with a new male.
all my best for you projects !
In wanting something truly new in your cone, from the start.
It's where the culture and the knownledge of the the breeder will produce it's own difference in the jungle.
Have a good numbers of smokes in head and to known the classics is more than helpfull too.
For me a breeder is a compulsive smoker never satisfyed.
Is it best to go to countries like India, Thailand, mexico and so on, and collect land-race seeds?
The landraces are a smoke than i appreciate by nature, a little mystic, raw, but so rich in all aspects. A fews seedbanks are (near to) specialized in this vein of breeding and avoid the necessity to take risks and lost time far from the breeding lab'.
In another hand, with a minimal formation in geology, you're able to study and report exactly the original conditions in being in the natural cultivar. It's possible on a computer, but in selection it make a difference for a potential preservation to have viewed, smelled and touched the natural dominant phenotypes.
Then once I have that seed enter into a breeding program with them?
Not necessary, but it's important to planify a reproduction for this raw blood on long term. If not, the travel, the time, the money invested in the adventure is a pure waste. Before get a plane ticket, you have to be sure to be passionnated by the strain and known near to all his story for find the best sources of genetic.
Would I find all the phenotypes (various smells, yields, heights, colours etc etc) I need within them seeds given that I had the space to propagate them?
You generally encounter two genotypes in landraces wich fight for the domination without any end. It's in fact a local equilibrum conditionned to the weather, soil, nutrients available etc...
It's when the purists insult the breeders to don't propagate the whole gens over theyr lines wich passed over a selection.
It's when you must split your personnal goals too. Preservation or strains creation, both are mathematically incompatible. One hand select, one hand mix... it's counter productive. And It's not the same type of share too.
If you want extract some landraces specificity (taste, yield etc..) to create a new strain, you're not so concerned by the purist way but more by the selection itself.
Would I find something SPECIAL by crossing them, then when you've found that SPECIAL plant you just have to stabilise it to an IBL and it's ready to market and sell?
Readed like that i'm feeling like a magician to be cannabically curious, thanks.
Special, depend on the background you have on the different strains of the market. You personnal tastes too. For that it's better to view the breeding in the representative tastes you have and express them in different strains. Over to aim an ultimate strain for start wich can't exist universally.
In the case of your special mean a phenotype (recessive), the usual way is to use the backcrossing process and fix the trait like that. To breed recessive is not impossible, but not without experience.
In the case of your special mean a shared traits (dominant), the way to stabilize it is simple : find the right couple in selection.
But the inbreeding is a very long process wich give his results apprently not like you imagine. It's nothing to have with a F1 or a S1 population, and if you make a blind grow test the grower will always choose the F1/S1 version for the performance (in fact the facility).
The market is not ready for IBLs in my opinion, or maybe i understimate the number of growers bored.
Can you order reliable land-race seeds on-line? If so do you have a link?
Recently i was happy with The Real Seed Company(try a goggle with), fresh seeds in bonus. But many others purpose this service with seriousness or not... the better guide will be growers with theyr grow logs.
So I understand that it is wrong to steal other peoples work and call it your own, but what if company A's-plant A has the purple phenotype or a lemon taste phenotype that you would like to add to your land-race breeding program, is this ripping off too?
Good point. My opinion is not neutral on it, fully pirate in the vein for be clear.
First, the genetic code is not a product with a barcod for me. Even if in our moderns days it's false legally lol Do you have patented your person ? Sorry.
From this point i don't feel me like a stealer when i use one blood or one another, not more than the source wich used another source with... we're in 2010,the hybridism have reached fews levels since the start of the cannabis adventure.
Now the work done on the strain and his place have an importance for me. In the case of all bloods i use for have fun, i keep a track of each initial source and share it. The transparency mustn't be a problem or you really do a bad thing : just hack in S1 a catalog without any work, or sell F2 for your creation with fakes references. Call a F2 or a F3 a true IBL etc...
It's enoughly used with est. seedbanks, so... i invite you to share your informations for change the things, or at least for try it.
I would love to get into the whole breeding scene but there is still a lot I need to learn before I start. I am going to do some practise projects as soon as I am in a new property with a few different sets of seeds I have, sort of a 'learn as you go' situation.
The whole breeding scene is a concept wich represent your own taste and curiosity about cannabis strains and seeds. I recall my previous mention on the culture.
And learn the soonest possible by yourself, in practice, is the better thing for known soon if you're ready to sacrify your time and money on it for have results later. Big populations from the start is a very good school and learn all wich must be forgeted from theory lol
So if any one could help on this matter it would be greatly appreciated-it would be interesting to get some breeder input on this topic if they get chance to browse this thread.
And share theyr secrets ? you're mad
Specific environmental conditions are often required for certain phenotypic expressions from a given genotype. If the available nutrients, hours of sunlight, or other conditions are not available then the development of the plant will be altered. These conditions are referred to as "environmental triggers."
It's where the selection enter in game in my opinion, when the preservation is limited to be shared with connoisseur only. Have the presence of both maintain a good diversity of seedbanks, on the paper.
Breeding is a matter of through many generations stablizing and selecting favorable traits. A lot of new school breeders are simply working with strains and cuts that are available from other people, refining them and perfecting them. Others go about it the way you mentioned, finding landrace strains and working from there.
I share. But it's not necessary absolute and somes do the both (with sucess or not). I think sincerely than peoples are better skilled for what they love, so like a bee you can taste some fine pollens and make your own nectar with.
Even if it's pure hacking, if you do better than the original you're welcome for me lol It's a form of natural selection.
But yes, outside this idealism, we can't say than it's the case actually.
So Bazarocka if I was to bring a Indica strain back from India and I didn't give it the same conditions it recieved there then I could lock out a particular pheno ie purple pheno?
Forget the dominant afghani standart of the market when you say "indica strain back from india".
In this specific case you don't lock anything but reproduce the triggers for stimulate the genetic. You "breed" your crop for fight against any acclimatation and natural selection, so in absolute against the lost of any phenotype (all are selected, no selection).
Now, you can choose to adapt this trait for indoor conditions in selecting specimens wich show the trait X in normal conditions encountered by the growers with wich you will share you strain (indoor or outdoor strain etc...).
If you make it for you only, you need only to launch a hughe selection and find the correct motherplant.
But breed a strain wich is very complex to grow is not to optimize his chance to survive in crops, finally.
So is that 10,000 of each male/female land-race genetics your suggesting or any genetics-just make sure I grow out a huge selection is your main point though yes?
10K specimens can be the whole specimens you select in one life too, and don't limit you to make bad weed in breeding. If you make your better with what you have for start, it's enough to enjoy your passion and let it eat your life days after days lol
i agree,,,,from what i have read, Landrace are DEFO way way more homogeneous than a poly or di-hybrid,,,,,,,,it seems to me,that stabilizing a poly is a whole other ballgame compared to stabilizing a Landrace
Erf, you're rude lol
Some polyhybridisms can be very hard, like stabilize the cheese pheno in the skunk for quote one. If it was easy, Sam was the first to release it in regular form in my opinion, it's his baby after all.
And in the other hand, to breed landrace is very not as easy than hybrids! They are not generous, the phenotypes numerous without a map, for some take 6 months to reproduce... no, it's a hard game. They are more homogenous generation after generation yes, but from theyr initial point of stability. Nothing to have with a skunk hybrid in F1, for an example.
Hi Medmaker420, hey man the hash must be good because the 'ramble' made perfect sense. I think ill be doing a little bit of pollen chucking to start, just to get to grips with documenting, feeding, seed collection, seed storing etc. When I am up to date with all my methods and have raised enough money-then I'll start the real project.
To finalize his own methodism is the long way of this affair, and it never happend in fact. You will ever find a new thing to digg or explore with cannabis.
Hi Megas, would you not find more stable genetics from land-race seeds and less stable in a companies F1 seeds?
Also you mentioned that it might be nice ditch weed if I sourced the seeds from say India for instance, but aren't some of the best seeds you get on the market made from these host countries anyway?
For example Black Widow=Brazilian Sativa x South Indian Hybrid.
You forget a lot of thaï wich played in a fews hybrid. For the most known, the blueberry.
Over to focus on the assembly, it's better to remember yourself than the selection will do all the difference. Firstly, to work with the strains wich have the "feeling" with you in certain manner.
So using the land-race for the dad/mom would help stabilise the end product faster than using two comm strains?
You under-estimate the power of a phenotype on the stability of a given offspring, even in F1. Sometimes it will be a simple affair of an impossible female or male, without any consideration for the strain. For that it's better to select your females and males by groups or to create multiple lines as a "fail safe" option.
But using a landrace don't help to stabilize a F1.
But another landrace yes, it create a lifted F1 wich is more stable than the two sources.
So are there more genotypes in poly/di-hybrids than there are in land-race? Is that why it's easier to stabilise?
The reverse in fact. The nature generally act like a hard but equilibrated breeder, in keeping the populations in a minimal diversity of phénotypes. It preserve the new generations hopes in certain manner, and the main trait will be the chances to survive and not the chances to taste the citrus or send your head on orbit, wich will be more a collateral effect or a linked trait in the landrace state.
But at a certain point of polyhybridism you have the same type of diversity than a landrace. I think about the case of a perpertual F1 of the homebreeder wich cross each generation his favorite female cut with a new male.
all my best for you projects !
,,,,,,its my terminology ,,,,,,i am talking about PURELINES
on this one. Alot of people agree that Amsterdam seed all taste the same, and most new strains are just a 'reschuffling of the deck' of existing 'elite' strains. For example the big strain at the moment is Super Silver Sour Diesel Haze. Nothing more than crossing Super Silver Haze and Sour Diesel. Sour Diesel came out of someone accidentally pollen chucking Diesel with a Mass. SuperSkunk. Cindy 99 came out of someone stabilizing bagseed from a Jack Herer crop that got some 'dusted' from a random pollination. Elite strains can come from master breeders with clear goals in mind (i.e. Dj Short, Chimera, Sam the Skunkman), and from closet pollen chuckers.
