Anyone use Humate Supreme™ Humic Acid Plus ?

[*Journeyman*]

We have had people trying our product that are extremely skeptical.

I'm not saying the product does not work I'm just questioning some of the information. I do believe the whole virgin humate thing is just a bit of marketing hocus pocus.

This rich humate ore deposit is in the hundreds of millions of tons.

Well...what is the common name for the material in this deposit?

Sounds like this is it (info from an eBay seller):

[FONT=&quot]You are buying Twenty-five Pounds of Raw Virgin Humate from the Western U.S. This Humate is the best kind for potted plants because it comes from an ancient Humic Shale deposit that contains Humic material that has never turned to coal. This is not re-oxidized coal. It does not even look the same! I personally inspect this product and frequently visit the mining area to assure quality. Before crushing, I often find bits and pieces of ancient fossilized reeds and leaf material within the humic layers. Our Humate is literally like haveing a 65 million year old compost with nothing left but the best nutrients and amendments for your soil preserved from the beginning of time!! The host sediment is a bentonite clay that is also very benificial for moisture and nutrient holding capacity. [/FONT]

 

[CT Guy]

What's wrong with Leonardite as a source? Maybe I missed something....

 

[*Journeyman*]

What's wrong with Leonardite as a source? Maybe I missed something....

Personally I do not see anything wrong with leonardite. I think the whole virgin humate thing is a bit of a joke. I guess the whole virgin humate angle is that the material never went through the coal phase and that makes it better than a post-coal like lignite/leonardite. So what?

 

[CT Guy]

I don't know either, that's why I was asking. I think the way the material is processed is a far more important question.

 

[OsWiZzLe]

anybody ready for todays lesson?

Merci Mr Gojo as always

**Melted Water State**
(from the deleted thread "Effects of EC level in nutrient solution on yield of cannabis in indoor condition")


Calculating humic acid quantity to create MWS in drench and folair water:

A real-world example I just made up:
Humic acid liquid product has 8% humic acid and there is 500 ml of product. The grower uses 4 gallons of water per 5 gallon bucket. A humic acid content of 0.009% will be achieved in the 4 gallons of water to create MWS.


Convert gallon of water to milliliter and multiply by percentage of humic acid needed to create MWS:

(4*3784.96)*(0.00009) = 1.36 ml humic acid needed per 4 gallons of water to create MWS


Multiply percentage of humic acid in liquid product by quantity (in ml) of product.

(0.08)*(500) = 40 ml humic acid per 500 ml product


Divide quantity (in ml) of humic acid by volume (in ml) of product.

(40)/(500) = 0.08 ml humic acid per ml of product


Divide quantity (in ml) of humic acid needed to create MWS in 4 gallons of water by quantity (as ml) of humic acid in one ml of product.

(1..36)/(0.08) = 17 ml of product will provide 1.36 ml of humic acid


Thus, one needs 17 ml of liquid humic acid product containing 8% humic acid to provide 1.36 ml of humic acid. That 1.36 ml of humic acid (in 17 ml of product) is need per 4 gallons of water to create MWS using 0.009% humic acid per volume of water.


I use insulin needle/syringe to measure accurate under a few ml. For over a few ml I use 10 ml, or 40 ml needle/syringe.



"All About Humates"
Author(s): Dr. Boris Levinsky; circa 1996

http://www.teravita.com/Humates/HumateIntro.htm

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let’s look at the simple system humate-water. The research carried out at Irkutsk University (D. A. Kalabin, D.. F. Kushnaryov) found the dependence in NMR spectral parameters of water, its structure, and concentration of the humates dissolved in it. When the concentration of the humate reaches 0.005-0.009% (this particular concentration is recommended for watering plants), 17Î signal increases from 52.7 Hertz to 103 Hertz, which indicates structurization of water.

The course of the curves in Fig. 3 shows that the humates cause water to obtain the structure of melted water (previously frozen), which is known to have a medicinal effect on animate organisms and plants.

Fig. 3 The connection between value of NMR signal and humic concentration.


The system humate-plant can be characterized by two independent processes that are very important to plants’ growth and development. The first process is the increase in the cell’s energy and the intensification of ion-exchange process as a result of it. Nature made sure there were quinoid groups in a humic acid structure. Electrons of the four conjugated p-bonds are able to capture a quantum of solar energy accompanied by a transition to a higher energy level. They accumulate the energy and supply it to the cell when needed. It intensifies the ion-exchange process. As a result, the root system develops more rapidly, and special ferments form to improve the plants’ resistance to unfavorable conditions, such as drought and frost. These ferments also assist the process of nitrogen assimilability that does not lead to the formation of nitrates.. At the same time, the synthesis of chlorophyll, sugars, vitamins, essential amino-acids, and oils accelerates.

The second process is the increase in penetrability of the cell membrane. (T. L. Senn and A. R. Kingman, 1973.) It facilitates the penetration of nutrients into the cell and accelerates the respiration of the plants. It is important to point out that this process is rather elective. For example, the penetration of potassium ions increases a hundred times while sodium penetration increases ten times, which favorably influences plants’ nourishment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




"So just what are humates?"
Author(s): Cape Aquatic Humates Ltd.; 2008
http://capeaquatichumates..blogspot.com/

 

[*Journeyman*]

I don't know either, that's why I was asking. I think the way the material is processed is a far more important question.

If a whole material then it would have to do with is it ground or micronized. From what I understand grinding can generate heat and for sure fulvic acids don't like heat and can agglomerate and become a bit useless. If an extract is dried using something like conventional spray drying the activity would be seriously compromised. Micronizing is a different process than grinding, from what I understand, and does not generate heat. Also I think it's important if using the whole form to micronize it. Mesa Verde offers Micromate which is micronized.

If an extract it seems the only ones really worth using are the ones from BioAg. From what I understand the typical alkali/acid extraction process actually denatures the humic/fulvic acids. I know someone who's done some field studies and they say the whole micronized version is many times more effective than a typical extract.

EDIT - just thought of the pressing these tablets go through. Whenever you compress something you generate heat. Don't know if the heat is substantial to mess things up but no way around heat generation with compressing like they do. The more pressure the more intense the heat.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

What's wrong with Leonardite as a source? Maybe I missed something....

CT Guy

Here's an article written by the staff at BioAg (Ryan Zadow and Dr. John Faust) on humic acids, fulvic acids, Leonardite, et al.

At the very least it is an interesting read with good solid information, IMHO

HTH

CC

 

[*Journeyman*]

Here's a killer paper on humates. The first one by Gary Zimmer is OK but the bombadilio writeup starts on page 3 by Lawrence Mayhew and he knows his shit . Gary Zimmer wrote a great book called The Biological Farmer. It's a method in between organics and conventional salt based farming but still focuses on culturing and honoring the soil microlife. He's really big on worms too. It has a lot of practical information culled from years of experience with large scale biologic farming. Learned a ton of stuff from that book and at the least helped me piece some things together.

http://www.rigran.com.br/resources/...ainHum-Substancias-humicas-Artigo-tecnico.pdf

 

[CT Guy]

CT Guy

Here's an article written by the staff at BioAg (Ryan Zadrow and Dr. John Faust) on humic acids, fulvic acids, Leonardite, et al.

At the very least it is an interesting read with good solid information, IMHO

HTH

CC

They seemed anti-leonardite and partial to their source, claiming that leonardite is high humic, low fulvic and low bio-activity. They're source is apparently high in both.

Digging a little deeper, I came across this link from their website:
http://karnet.up.wroc.pl/~weber/kwasy2.htm

If you look at the diagram in the bottom right of the page showing humic and fulvic acid levels in grassland vs forest land, it shows high humic ratios as being associated with grassland. This would fit with cannabis, making a leonardite source the preferable option?

I've never really thought of humic and fulvic in these terms. I've always thought of them as partners, with the humic acid performing the chelation and the fulvic as assisting in bring the chelated minerals through the plants cellular walls.

I don't know which is preferred in regards to biology. Unfortunately my knowledge on this (and I think research in general) is a bit weak.

 

[*Journeyman*]

If you look at the diagram in the bottom right of the page showing humic and fulvic acid levels in grassland vs forest land, it shows high humic ratios as being associated with grassland. This would fit with cannabis, making a leonardite source the preferable option?

No biggie but technically leornadite only applies to the deposit in North Dakota discovered by Dr. Leonard but there are actually lots of deposits like that. If you talk to people in the biz they may correct you...lol. Some say the North Dakota stuff is higher in humic because it is a sea plant deposit while the stuff coming out of the Southwest is high in fulvic because it is a land plant deposit but Joel at Mesa Verde will tell you it's neither and simply has more to do with the age of the deposit and extent of exposure.

I don't know that it's critical which source is used for canna though. High fulvic deposits will still work great but hear what you're saying. If strict organic, and especially if soil recycling, the need for humin/humic acid/fulvic acid is limited.

Here's another set of short papers on humics/fulvics with a lot of information about human use. the only reason it's not all over the place in the health food stores is because the FDA does not recognize it as GRAS Generally Recognized As Safe). I still drink the stuff but make sure you get the WuJinSan and not BioAg's ag liquid cause that one still has the fermentation bacteria in it.

http://www.richearth.net/FulvicBioscienceMedicalNewsArticle.pdf

As for claimed humic/fulvic values that's something you need to watch. If a manufacturer spikes the material with iron there will be a higher level of humic acid show up in the test result. For extracts if they include the humin fraction that will show up as humic acid. Humin is the insoluble fraction (either alkali or acid) but is still a very important part of humic deposits and an excellent soil builder/conditioner and provides other benefits. That's one of the reasons I like just the micronized for soil use, but can be used as a foliar, and fulvic for foliar. Fulvic works great in hydro but also the micronized material has shown great promise in dro systems.

 

[humatesupreme]

Hey Everyone,

Sorry for the delay, we've been hit by an ice/snow storm in our area. I finally recieved a response back from the experts behind Humate Supreme and they asked me to post the response to our blog since it will help answer the question for everyone. You can check it out at http://humatesupreme.com/humates-and-the-history-of-humate-supreme/.

Thanks guys.

Humate Supreme

 

[*Journeyman*]

I read that response and not particularly helpful IMO.

1. They did not state what the deposit is and based on my research seems to be a shale. What's the big deal stating what it is?
2. There was no mention as to why this type of deposit is superior, if it is, so can only assume lignite/leonardite is fine in their eyes. Based on all the research I've read, pictures I've seen and people in the industry I've talked to lig/leon works great if used properly. Are there any comparative studies on the different sources?
3. While the whole virgin thing was claimed to have started 40 years ago it's not a common term and the only Google references are associated with this product.
4. From what I understand sedimentary deposits are not necessarily the best ones to use.

Anyway...thanx for the response.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

humatesupreme

I would appreciate an answer to my question regarding your product(s) vs. BioAg's line of products.

Do you have any peer-reviewed studies on organic growers using your product vs. other humic acid products? Specifically your product vs. the product line from BioAg or TerraVitta.

I have an association with the Oregon Tilth group so IF your product achieves the levels of growth enhancement vs. conventional/established companies in this field I would be very interested in presenting your product to the organic grower's group in and around Oregon's Mid-Willamette Valley.

Dr. John Faust and his staff have done several presentations to our group as well as the folks from the Soil Food Web, Earth Fortifications so what I'm saying is that don't hide this magical product from mainstream organic growers - we make and break companies all the time.

IF your product is as good as the claims made it would seem to me that approaching a different market than 'Stoner Joe' would be necessary to insure market expansion, eh?

I'm curious as usual.

CC

 

[*Journeyman*]

Guess I'm not done here...lol.

5. How is your product specifically formulated for cannabis?

When I see a company basically talk around a question instead of answering directly it raises a red flag. A lot of available information I see about Humate Supreme is pretty darn vague.

Like CC I'd like to know that one also and not necessarily against BioAg's stuff but any comparative study like I asked in question #2 above.

 

[humatesupreme]

We do not have any studies or research comparing our products directly against other humate (humic acid) based products, including BioAg or TerraVitta; nor are we aware of any studies these other products have comparing our products to theirs. Our research through the years was focused extensively on producing consistent humate based products that could replace excessive chemical fertilizer use; and the majority of our lab and field test was against chemicals. We believe humates are "the answer" to eco-friendly sustainable agriculture; producing amazing results, if, as previously mentioned, there is consistency in the products that are marketed.

The fact is there have been numerous companies attempting to market humates through the years; some have done humates justice, while some have done them harm. In the early years all research and marketing was head to head against chemicals rather than other humates. Most of the fly by night mine-crush-spread, 40lbs to the acre, type operations went by the way side along the way.

With that said, our research did incorporate all sources of humates, including lignites and leonardites, from various deposits throughout the United States. We zeroed in on a unique deposit in central Utah, which was unlike any of the deposits found in New Mexico, Texas, Wyoming, or anywhere else for that matter; as it was rich in humic acid, the highest in naturally occurring minerals, and it plain and simply out-performed the lignite/leonardite deposits. This deposit also had some of the earliest history, and research, prior to our involvement that we could find associated with any humates at the time... including research by Dr. Davis of BYU dating back to the early 1950’s, and a history of raw humate being mined and shipped to strawberry growers in California in the 1930’s.

The bottom line is does a product work or not, and the best way to find out is to give it a try. I’m sure BioAg and TerraVitta are likely good products; otherwise they wouldn’t sustain a market. We feel our products are every bit as good, even better, and we have plans to do some comparative studies. We’ve been involved with humates every bit as long as Dr. John Faust, who claims his research began "in the late 60’s when only a handful of companies realized the potential of humate derivatives" and I assure you we were one of those that saw the potential back then.

We start with a good humate base, which we feel is better than the more common lignite/leonardite deposits, albeit it is in the carbonaceous shale (or soil) family (which is not to say it’s petroleum related as one poster would suggest). It is refined via a "proprietary process" of which has been developed through the years, and converted too various products, including the Humate Supreme product line that is formulated for cannabis; some of which do contain minimal amounts of NPK (Humate Supreme blend is 3-2-1 NPK for Cannabis while agriculture blends have a 1-1-1 blend of NPK), which through synergism with our proprietary base become much more powerful than the analysis would suggest.

We don’t wish to hide our product from anybody. We advertise, we’ve got trade shows lined up, and we’re willing to make presentations to groups; if it works out logistically for everyone.

 

[*Journeyman*]

That's a bit better...thanx. For sure I'll try and track down information about that source to learn more.

As for the oil shale thing it does not sound like your deposit is oil shale but would be considered something more like Inert Embedded Lignite Silt which from what I understand is an accepted term for certain deposits...or something close to that.

Dr. John Faust

It's actually Dr. Robert Faust but no biggie. Said a deposit should not burn such as something like coal or I guess oil shale. I've been told by some certain humate deposits can be considered carbonaceous shale.

As for the Utah vs. New Mexico deposits...lol. For sure something like the North Dakota deposits are not preferred.