What are 'True Organics' and 'Pseudo Organics' and what are the pros & cons of each?

[xmobotx]

this thread needs a bump!

let me just say that i agree w/ verdant's comparison

initially i expressed that the truest organic would be the "untouched grotto" and I stand by this

this is not to say that we want this garden specifically

we want a hot-rodded version and we want it within a few years (not a few generations)

w/ that in mind, we collect together the ingredients which provide best for our specific growing needs and mix them in tried and true balances to replicate essentially the best regions of an "untouched grotto"

Certainly, in nature, a plant may not reach it's full potential. But, with some specific attention whether by nute regimen, light optimization, or pruning/hand care we reach for the maximum production at the maximum quality level -each in our own ways

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks xmobotx - thats exactly what i am working on. my soil mix has all the ingredients that would go into a 'totally natural' mix, but it also uses some guano's which, imo, give the plant that potential for explosive growth in the first few weeks after repot. this is particularly important for the stretch stage in early flower because decent stretch = decent yields imo. i grow scrog with shortish veg times so i need that growth to fill the screen. it works great for me.

some respected people, including the late great silverback, believed after many years experience that organics cant deliver the nutrients fast enough for truly high yielding weed plants. i disagree, and i believe my methods prove it wrong, but it supports the fact that cannabis does need some good feeding at some stages.

V.

 

[chef]

Absolutely correct CrazyC! What I support for indoors is the cheapest, simplest, most self-sufficient mimicry of nature possible given materials and space available. One who is unfortunate enough to be 'taken' by a lot of the commercial products out there which claim they are organic but which really are not, might be described as treading on the pseudo side.

I see where CC is comin' from & agree w/microbeman, except for the cheapest. Some quality ingredients cost buck$
A lot of the best quality can be the cheapest too tho & available in #40 sacks at your local feed store

I like the race car/racing analogy & have used it myself for decades! Can't think of a better way to describe trying to squeeze 3seasons of soil biology into 70days flat.
In a nutshell, I do my best to mimic outdoor conditions from around 10,000 BC, minus the Pterodactyl guano

@verdant. I haven't forgotten about that red soil thread, maybe this spring outdoors?

my 2 pesos

 

[vonforne]

But the best comes for FREE vermicompost, compost, nettles,comfrey etc.............

 

[love?]

The EU has set some standards on what can be called organic and what can't (when sold within the EU). Unlikely to be perfect but based on my, admittedly very limited, knowledge I'd say they are ok. Sometimes maybe even too detailed / restricting. For example you can't call something organic before you've grown in that style on the same land for a couple of years to make sure there aren't old chemical fertilizers left. Well actually that makes sense but anyway you get my point..

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/organic-farming/what-organic_en

 

[chef]

But the best comes for FREE vermicompost, compost, nettles,comfrey etc.............

Free if your time is worth nothing in ghetto bins maybe?
I prefer to get my vermi from local pros for a fair price. 4 Corners? Some in the PNW may know of them?
They have 100% castings & their soil mix is as close to Oldschool Original Black Gold (circa 80's) as you can find nowadays, just peat, perlite & fresh castings. Good schtuff

 

[unthing]

The EU-standards are, as with any other country, set of rules for industrial agriculture using organic methods. In a big scale you have much more compromises to be practical (at least with my humble knowledge, free to be corrected)

In a small scale personal gardening you can dive into depths that could't really be done as good in big scale IMO.

Edit: Biodynamics seems to be quite close to the ideals which to many would drive to, if not counting preparates and cosmic vibes. In commercial level they seem to be in the marginal of organics, even thou have their own rules.

 

[Trichgnomes]

Free if your time is worth nothing in ghetto bins maybe?
I prefer to get my vermi from local pros for a fair price. 4 Corners? Some in the PNW may know of them?
They have 100% castings & their soil mix is as close to Oldschool Original Black Gold (circa 80's) as you can find nowadays, just peat, perlite & fresh castings. Good schtuff

So these folks at 4 corners are vermipros eh? That would make them, what, oligochaetologists? I mean no offense here, and often times I do not have enough castings for adding to soil or tea, and have to buy some, reluctantly. But seriously, vermicomposting is not quantum mechanics, and anyone can do it.
What do you do with your food waste, chef? IMO, its not just about growing the plants, growing organically= living consciously. An example of such is composting kitchen scraps, leaf material etc. Finished product equals biologically rich humified organic matter. Two objectives are being completed with one task.

"Free if your time is worth nothing in ghetto bins maybe?"

Sorry I had to re-quote this one, but this is what I find to be a perfect example of a statement made by someone who practices Pseudo Organics. On top of that it doesn't seem to be very grammatically sound.

 

[chef]

Yeah Pros!
Pros = supplying quality & CONSISTENT castings, 365 days a year in the PNW.
My piles are frozen 1/2 the year. How's FU for grammar?

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I think we all agree that the word Organic is weak. I like jaykush's word; Natural. Thanks for relaying that Vonforme. I think the reason the word Organic has lost it's magic is because it's become a catch-all media term, like pitbull or global warming. The line between Organic and Synthetic will always evade us, just as surely as will the definition of what exactly a pitbull is.

 

[Trichgnomes]

My apologies to Verdant and everyone for going into impolite territory, as well as a bit off topic. I felt as though the "ghetto bin" comment was a vastly oversimplified, insulting and incredibly crude portrayal of home-scale vermicomposting, and acted without a filter. I do not regret addressing it, but do feel as though I could have been more civil about it. Cheers chef

 

[chef]

Ditto, "DIY bins" would have been better
I didn't mean it as derogatory, but see how it could easily be taken that way.

I'm just hoping my worms survive the winter ATM. It's only a #10 smart pot full of red wigglers. I buried it outside in old potting soil as a protective layer. Plan on building some ghetto bins myself this spring

Cheers

 

[CannaExists]

I like jaykush's word; Natural. Thanks for relaying that Vonforme. I think the reason the word Organic has lost it's magic is because it's become a catch-all media term, like pitbull or global warming.

Don't think natural hasn't lost it's magic. When you're buying food for example, natural is, in my experience, worse than organic. Organic food is supposed to be non-GMO, natural doesn't have to be though.

Yeah scientists editing DNA is lik.... soooo natural.

 

[jaykush]

natural is what you make of it, my food is natural. it isnt gmo or anything like that. my food is by far better than any organic produce you can buy in the store.

i dont think there is one word that will completely cover organic gardening in its fullest. its just not possible.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Free if your time is worth nothing in ghetto bins maybe?
I prefer to get my vermi from local pros for a fair price. 4 Corners? Some in the PNW may know of them?
They have 100% castings & their soil mix is as close to Oldschool Original Black Gold (circa 80's) as you can find nowadays, just peat, perlite & fresh castings. Good schtuff

Chef

I'm familiar with 4 Corners and their product lines. Their potting soils, EWC are sold at AmericanAg up near 82nd and Stark off I-205.

If you're getting the results from their products that is what you're expecting then that's a good thing. My results weren't in line with other methods and products.

RE: The guy who owns 4 Corners was the originator of the Black Gold Potting Soil (the FFOF of the 1980's and 1990's). Black Gold is now owned by Sun Gro Horticulture out of British Columbia. They have a packing plant on Highway 99E just north of Hubbard, Oregon

Sun Gro Horticulture are the makers of the various Sunshine Mixes which are widely used here in the valley by nursery stock growers. At a nursery trade show last summer I stopped by the Sun Gro booth and talked with one of their production managers.

My question was about Black Gold Organic Soil and whether or not the peat moss and coconut coir used in this mix was of the same high quality as their Sunshine Organic Growers Mix and the Sunshine Organic Germination Mix product. He wasn't able to tell me that but he did make an interesting comment about their very high standards on the organic mixes in general because of the enforcement in Oregon and California especially.

So if a person wanted a top soil they couldn't do much better than Black Gold Organic. I would still add minerals and a cup or so of a general dry fertilizer mix. Maybe some pumice or perlite and you're good to go.

HTH

CC

 

[mad librettist]

this ain't no ghetto bin. diy flow through with moisture management. you just need a sowing machine...

 

[Microbeman]

Hi Clack, Very good to hear from you!

 

[mad librettist]

microbe check your rep.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

this ain't no ghetto bin. diy flow through with moisture management. you just need a sowing machine...

mad librettist

Thanks for posting that photo. A young couple at the weekly farmer's market in Eugene began selling this last spring and had a half-dozen colors available.

Very, very nice worm bin for small families, apartment dwellers, etc. They look like they would work very well.

CC

P.S. - regarding the correct dosage for Dyna-Gro Neem Seed Oil - I'm glad to see that they've changed the recommend dosage on their web site. 1.5 tsp. per quart is too strong for the veg room, IMHO. I go with about 1/2 that amount and apply it 2x per week. I was using human food-grade yucca extract as an emulsifier (no preservatives which wreck havoc on microherds) but after talking with the Dyna-Gro reps last summer at a nursery grower's trade show I switched to Dyna-Gro Pro-Tek as the emulsifier. Pro-Tek is a 'liquid silicon' (or is it silica?) so you get the added benefit of making your leaves and branches resistant to spider mites and makes it more difficult to cause any serious damage. I add Pro-Tek to each and every watering as well as in foliar sprays.

It works for me and it might be helpful for someone else.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hi Clack, Very good to hear from you!

Microbeman

Thanks!

How are coming along on the microscopes that you were working on last summer. Got anything for around $250.00 by any chance?

I'm ready to step-up my game with regard to brewing AACTs. It's probably time to come into the real world, eh?

LOL

CC