Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[jyme]

yea madpenguin
they have done sent out a check. and paid for all my applances. the worst thing was my lights the circut boards inside the ballast all got fry'd and i couldnt report that to the insurance comp. the electritian thing isnt so bad,my famliy knew one that does it part time and he is going to do it for $650 wow rite the catch is he is going to supervise me doing it.well im going to help him do it.so im going to get some good old experiance at it.we checked the wiring and all of it doesnt need replaced. see what he said was(the main panel below the meterbase shorted out and lost its nuetral and the high/low surge started throing some breakers the ones that when high and shorted out every thing on the low side as the load wasnt high enough to carry the aplances.evey thing on 240 survived and 110 shorted out)
well if you was close to alabama you could to have done it as we lied about the amout of the damage caused and got enough money to repalce all the wiring in the house. we got 9000.00 for the wiring and 5000.00 for the apalnces.

 

[moakyagher420]

a 2 pole breaker is a 240v line, right?
.

i looked at the back and it shows two connections one on each bar.


because i have a 30amp 2pole going to a sub panel for a hot tub.


i was going to hook up the 20amp 2pole with 10/2 at the sub panel which is the 2 pole in the first pic to a wh40 timer. than to 4 20amp 220v outlets (for now until i can get the 4 6-30R's and a 30amp breaker) i was going to make that device MP showed someone to make. but i couldnt get the 6-30r's in town. so this should work for now i think. i should only be pulling 15.8 amps with 2 1000's and 2 600's

this would work right from what i have gathered threw this thread. amazing though all the information that mad peguin and all others have put down.
i do think MP needs to start up a paypal account as an adviser. image how much money and hazards this guy has saved. what a guy.
Thank you for your time.

 

[burnedout]

I just ordered one of each. I'll brainstorm my own flip and post a tutorial. I'm pretty good with photoshop so one relay should do me...

That would be really awesome.

 

[madpenguin]

a 2 pole breaker is a 240v line, right?
.

Wait. That's a slimline/tandem breaker. That won't give you 240v. It's just 120v on each wire fed from the same phase or hot leg. If you took a multimeter and measured the voltage between both wires, you would get 0, not 240.

i looked at the back and it shows two connections one on each bar.

Oh..... Yea. That may be a 240v slimline. To be quite honest, I had no idea those existed. Your really going to need a multimeter to double check your voltage between both wires to make sure.

because i have a 30amp 2pole going to a sub panel for a hot tub.


i was going to hook up the 20amp 2pole with 10/2 at the sub panel which is the 2 pole in the first pic to a wh40 timer. than to 4 20amp 220v outlets (for now until i can get the 4 6-30R's and a 30amp breaker) i was going to make that device MP showed someone to make. but i couldnt get the 6-30r's in town. so this should work for now i think. i should only be pulling 15.8 amps with 2 1000's and 2 600's

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5376-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00004YUN5

Look at the dimensions further down on that page. Not so sure a standard male plug will mate with those receptacles. You would have to snip your ballast plugs and rewire them. Probably something I wouldn't do personally. At the very least, use the spec grade 20A 240v receptacles. The ones where you insert the wire between two plates and then tighten down the side screw.

The dimensions say 5x3. Looks like they might have it reversed from standard and the 5" is the height. If it's only 3" wide, maybe a standard 240v male plug would mate with that. Wish I had a few extra bucks. I'd order some but I'm piss broke right now.

Even if you were getting 240v from those breakers, I would probably use a straight up 240v Double Pole breaker anyway. Doesn't look like those handles are joined in anyway. Even if you did buy handle ties for them, you couldn't be 100% sure that both switches would trip in the event of an overload or fault. That's why you need an "internal" trip mechanism which a DP breaker provides.

 

[madpenguin]

I did order quite a few relays. Should be here within the next few days. Work is at a stand still so this should be kinda fun. If it wasn't for the ladies in the attic, I'd probably be homeless right now. That or working at McDonalds....



Let's all give thanks for the plants we grow and stay as safe as possible in the process....

Kung Pow's tutorial was good but he left out all the important specifics leaving quite a bit to the imagination. That coupled along with non standard wiring colors and who knows if he was running 240 or 120. How was it fed? He left out crucial info.

 

[moakyagher420]

Look at the dimensions further down on that page. Not so sure a standard male plug will mate with those receptacles. You would have to snip your ballast plugs and rewire them. Probably something I wouldn't do personally.

i've been looking for a 30amp receptacles that fit the standard plug.
yeah i wouldn't rewire my ballast plugs either.

At the very least, use the spec grade 20A 240v receptacles. The ones where you insert the wire between two plates and then tighten down the side screw.

Thats what i got for now, the standard 20A 240v receptecale's. im just under 80% of 20A's and would like to be less since i would like to get a AC in the summer months and put it on a 240v plug. I'll look for 30A 240v plugs.

do you think this is the standard plug i found it at http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/6875025
http://www.nextag.com/norob/PtitleS...XR/FBcMMDan5VlTvK6Aeg1UK0ZQ=&ptitle=524791978

Even if you were getting 240v from those breakers, I would probably use a straight up 240v Double Pole breaker anyway. Doesn't look like those handles are joined in anyway. Even if you did buy handle ties for them, you couldn't be 100% sure that both switches would trip in the event of an overload or fault. That's why you need an "internal" trip mechanism which a DP breaker provides.

They are goined together by a metal clip that they come with.

Well thank you for your help and confermation. You should start up a paypal account. Atleast for donations.

Thank you, beatiful ladies for blessing us with your great flowers and your flowers for holding us threw the winter.

 

[casualtokerr]

Hey MadPenguin, Thanks alot for all the info, very good technical advice.


I'm going to be taking your first piece of advice and say that my friend is hiring an electrician for his medical grow and asked me a few questions I'm forwarding to you. I've read through the thread and didn't see it answered so here goes. Thanks in advance


What is the advantage, other than lowering the amps you are drawing, to running 240 over 120?

What type of appliances can he say he is installing in order to cover for the new installation?

When the electrician connects the new lines from the panel, how many outlets can we add to one particular line? I know he can answer that question for us, but we'd like to know before hand in order to be prepared to answer any questions.


When calculating the amount of draw on a fuse, what is considered to be the ultra safe threshold to stay within? I'm assuming that if you reach close to capacity on the fuse it will trip often and the line would be dangerous to run. I'd like to be as safe as possible.




MP, thanks alot again, its cool to see someone taking out so much time to offer advice on a tech subject like this.

 

[moses224]

SAY UR INSTALLING A TANNING BED (beds) they run 240

 

[burnedout]

What is the advantage, other than lowering the amps you are drawing, to running 240 over 120?

That's pretty much it.

What type of appliances can he say he is installing in order to cover for the new installation?

Depends on where the grow is, but really, just about anything with a high draw. Welder, kiln, tanning bed, server, spa, dryer, stove etc.

When the electrician connects the new lines from the panel, how many outlets can we add to one particular line? I know he can answer that question for us, but we'd like to know before hand in order to be prepared to answer any questions.

As many as you want so long as you don't overload the circuit.

When calculating the amount of draw on a fuse, what is considered to be the ultra safe threshold to stay within? I'm assuming that if you reach close to capacity on the fuse it will trip often and the line would be dangerous to run. I'd like to be as safe as possible.

80%, assuming your wire size is sized appropriately for the breaker that's installed


Hope that helps. I'm sure MP will chime in if I misspoke at all.

 

[madpenguin]

do you think this is the standard plug i found it at http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/6875025
http://www.nextag.com/norob/PtitleS...XR/FBcMMDan5VlTvK6Aeg1UK0ZQ=&ptitle=524791978

That's still a NEMA 6-30R....

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867&page=5

If you don't see it on that page, then they don't make it (For US systems).

I'd still try to borrow a multimeter and check the voltage between both those screws on the breaker once it's in the panel and fired up. You could even buy a multimeter and then return it later.

 

[madpenguin]

Hey MadPenguin, Thanks alot for all the info, very good technical advice.


I'm going to be taking your first piece of advice and say that my friend is hiring an electrician for his medical grow and asked me a few questions I'm forwarding to you. I've read through the thread and didn't see it answered so here goes. Thanks in advance


What is the advantage, other than lowering the amps you are drawing, to running 240 over 120?

What type of appliances can he say he is installing in order to cover for the new installation?

When the electrician connects the new lines from the panel, how many outlets can we add to one particular line? I know he can answer that question for us, but we'd like to know before hand in order to be prepared to answer any questions.


When calculating the amount of draw on a fuse, what is considered to be the ultra safe threshold to stay within? I'm assuming that if you reach close to capacity on the fuse it will trip often and the line would be dangerous to run. I'd like to be as safe as possible.




MP, thanks alot again, its cool to see someone taking out so much time to offer advice on a tech subject like this.

Burnedout answered it all.

I will say that for anything other than banks, offices and dwellings, you are limited to 180va per yoke when installing receptacles. Ohms Law will tell you the answer if your interested. va=watts.

example: 20A x 120V = 2400 Volt Amperes
2400va / 180va per yoke = 13.333 receptacles or
13 receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.

But that doesn't matter if your in a house, bank or office

 

[jyme]

hey madpenguin, sorry to hear your out of work

i got a ? it was bothering me.this guy told me that being i was running 8 120a recepticals on one wire i should take a double pole 30a breaker and hook to just one side that would cary a greater load the wire would be 14-2. is this guy crazy or was he rite?

 

[casualtokerr]

Burnedout answered it all.

I will say that for anything other than banks, offices and dwellings, you are limited to 180va per yoke when installing receptacles. Ohms Law will tell you the answer if your interested. va=watts.

example: 20A x 120V = 2400 Volt Amperes
2400va / 180va per yoke = 13.333 receptacles or
13 receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.

But that doesn't matter if your in a house, bank or office

Thanks alot for the help. Just wanted to reiterate just in case you think it goes unnoticed, it doesn't.

Burnedout, thanks alot as well.



Also, one last thing. As per the 240V/120V comparison, less current drawn means less wattage used or no? I feel like the advantage to the 240V would be being able to run more high current drawing appliances on a single line without beefing up the fuse too much. Am I reading that right?

 

[madpenguin]

this guy told me that being i was running 8 120v recepticals on one wire i should take a double pole 30a breaker and hook to just one side that would cary a greater load the wire would be 14-2. is this guy crazy or was he rite?

He's crazy and shouldn't be giving advice. Not only that, they sell single pole 30A breakers so why would you use only one half of a double pole 30A breaker?

#14AWG is only rated to carry 15A so the only breaker you can hook up to it is a 15A breaker. #12 is only rated to carry 20A so you can only use a 20A or 15A breaker. You can go down in breaker size but never up. Not unless your also running new wire that is rated for the breaker.

The MINIMUM wire size you can use on a 30A breaker is #10AWG.

 

[jyme]

i had read over your post i thought he was crazy.and everyone should get a second opinion thanks.

 

[madpenguin]

As per the 240V/120V comparison, less current drawn means less wattage used or no?

No.

A 1000w bulb running at 240v uses roughly 4.1 amp. That's using ohms law anyway. 1000w / 240v = 4.166 Amps.

A 1000w bulb running at 120v uses roughly 8.33 Amps. 1000w / 120v = 8.3333

Your still using the same amount of wattage. You just use half the current (amps) when running at 240v. The power company charges for wattage used so the only benefit in using 240v is to squeeze more ballasts onto one circuit.

I feel like the advantage to the 240V would be being able to run more high current drawing appliances on a single line without beefing up the fuse too much. Am I reading that right?

Yep. Thats the only reason really to run at 240v.

 

[strydr]

First off, Thank You MP, CF, and everyone else that gives safe and sane electrical advice! Without you, there would be so much more risk in doing this. Having a expert verify we are not doing something crazy is such a awesome contribution to our community. With that said, I am working towards my electrical license, so, hopefully, I can help give back one day too

Now with that out of the way, can I get a sanity check on my wiring ideas?

Starts with a 125Amp panel. Breaker slot(s) 14 & 15 are a 240v 30 amp breaker that feeds a NEMA 10-30R just below it. It is fed with 12/2 romex. I have a small (I think it's for a spa) sub panel box that I would like to feed from the 10-30R to the box, where it would split to 2x 15amp breakers. From here, one breaker would feed the T101 timer, which will power 2x 600W Galaxy ballasts. The other 15amp breaker would feed the remaining items.

Breakdown of Equipment per circuit:
Circuit 1 - Ballasts -
2x600w 5 amps x2= 10 amps

Circuit 2 - Pumps, fans, etc.. -
Vortex 6" fan - 1 amp
Small directional fan .8 amp x2 = 1.6 amp
Small oscillating fan .3 amps x3= 1 amp
Phason TVS
Sentinel EVC-1
CO2 solenoid
CAP CO2 monitor
1/4HP water chiller 2.3 amps
Chiller pump - 250gph
Dehumidifier 2.7 amps
=3.6 amps constant, 6 amps switched


So, here's my concerns..
1. My main panel doesn't have a primary breaker- I am thinking it is a subpanel already. The largest breaker is a 60amp (just to the left of my 30 amp) that powers the furnace. I did not find a main disconnect (I live in a duplex, so it may be outside somewhere)- does this pose any more problems I should be aware of?
2. The 10-30R is wired with 12/2. If I am wiring a subpanel to this, don't I need a separate ground and neutral? If so, where do I pull it from (I am assuming I'll pull it from the panel above it)
3. If I can keep the 10-30R (or replace with a 4 wire), can I wire up a dryer replacement cord to the Murray box? I am assuming the dryer replacement cord is a braided wire, not a solid- will this have a impact on anything?
3a. If I cannot use the 10-30, and I cannot rewire for a 4 wire, should I just re-run from the breaker to my subpanel? This is a rental, so I am trying to keep things as stock as possible.
4. Balancing the load.. I have a steady 10 amps on Circuit 1, Circuit 2 has 3.6 amps of constant loads (fans), and approx. 6 amps of switched loads (water chiller, pump, and dehumidifier), plus a few rouge Ma for the other monitor equipment. My concern is that the loads are not balanced. With everything running, it's pretty close, but when devices (like dehumid and chiller) turn off, the load unbalances pretty bad. Also,when the lights turn off, the imbalance goes the other way, i.e. no load on Circuit 1, but 3.6 amps constant, and 6 amps switched on Circuit 2



Are the above concerns that I can get over/fix/work around? Anything else I should be concerned with? I have a bit of exp. with electricity, mostly as a helper to my boss, who is a certified electrician, and mostly with high voltage stuff- so I have no issues with digging around in my panel. Biggest concern is that I cannot find a main disconnect for it.

Thank you in advance for any help here.

Pics are worth 1K of words...

 

[barnyard08]

I have a cap 220 4 light with the timer and the 120 trigger I plugged my ballast into it and it started to smoke like the 120 isnt catching why is it doing this?

 

[burnedout]

Starts with a 125Amp panel. Breaker slot(s) 14 & 15 are a 240v 30 amp breaker that feeds a NEMA 10-30R just below it. It is fed with 12/2 romex. I have a small (I think it's for a spa) sub panel box that I would like to feed from the 10-30R to the box, where it would split to 2x 15amp breakers. From here, one breaker would feed the T101 timer, which will power 2x 600W Galaxy ballasts. The other 15amp breaker would feed the remaining items.

Your 12/2 wire is only rated to 20 amps, so it should be on a 20 amp breaker, not a 30. Which means if you want 24 amps available (80% of a 30 amp circuit) you'll need to rewire the circuit with 10/2. It sounds like you want to run both 240v and 120v accessories off your sub panel, so you'd need to use 10/3 instead of 10/2.

MP did a great sub panel installation tutorial earlier in this thread, it's on page 3 or 4 I believe.

 

[strydr]

Your 12/2 wire is only rated to 20 amps, so it should be on a 20 amp breaker, not a 30. Which means if you want 24 amps available (80% of a 30 amp circuit) you'll need to rewire the circuit with 10/2. It sounds like you want to run both 240v and 120v accessories off your sub panel, so you'd need to use 10/3 instead of 10/2.

MP did a great sub panel installation tutorial earlier in this thread, it's on page 3 or 4 I believe.

No 240, just want to split it into 2 120 circuits.

I've read through the entire thread, and found it extremely helpful. I have concerns though about my "main" panel, as it does not have a main disconnect, as well as the issue with the 10-30 not having a separate ground and neutral. Obviously, the 12/2 will need to be replaced (thanks for that info), so I guess I might as well just re-run a 10/3 from the 30amp breaker (I will need a separate ground and neutral, right?) to my mini-sub-panel (spa breaker- can it even be used in this application?). This would eliminate the 10-30R, and could just be run through the wall.

Anyway, don't want anyone to think I haven't read (and absorbed at least some) as much as I can, I just have a few specific questions, and don't want to risk burning down a rental that I share with other folks.

Thanks in advance for any advice.