MickTheBrag
Active member
you still get salts build up with organic growing.
so you need a coulple of flushes.
so you need a coulple of flushes.
Let's define "flushing" once-and-for-all.
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optic sizzle
Member
salts? from what? too much guano (big NO3 -a salt- source)? not enough oxygen? and why is nothing using the salts? too much salt putting your microherd to sleep? plants looking "hungry" as a result? try some EM, change a habit, fix the water, I don't know, do something to fix the real problem. That's organics. You make big changes fiddling with the system. And the only time your plant looks shocked is after a rough transplant or a heat event.
but stop flushing! it's for toilets and miracle growers. If anything, too much water will collapse your medium or water log it, leading to anaerobic conditions, and guess what? More salts from ciliates eating and pooping in your new anaerobic environment. The whole deal may stress the plant, and may shut it down early, but who cares? we don't need colors to match the synthetic crowd, we can do this ourselves.
I make my wormcastings with bokashi, and that is made from the leavings of my kitchen. Cooked food. Meat. Cheese. Bread. Prepared food. whatever. yet my worm bin is teeming. I would put my castings up against anyone's in a side by side in their own soil. Same or better. And jam packed with not just any salt it's NaCl. That's a pretty useless salt to a plant, taking up my total dissolved salt quota, yet I still have room for error! With MJ, squashes, tomatoes, peas, carrots, sprouts, greens, whatever! If it likes microbes, it likes my castings.
EDIT: may I point out, humbly, that attempting to define something once and for all is like keeping sand from slipping between your fingers. It's a pointless quest for authority over that which belongs to no man and to all men (and women!). Imagine if shakespeare had simply respected the authority of chaucer. Or if tories always had to have the exact same views. What crippling confines we would create for our own craniums if we could not alter our language in such an organic way.
but stop flushing! it's for toilets and miracle growers. If anything, too much water will collapse your medium or water log it, leading to anaerobic conditions, and guess what? More salts from ciliates eating and pooping in your new anaerobic environment. The whole deal may stress the plant, and may shut it down early, but who cares? we don't need colors to match the synthetic crowd, we can do this ourselves.
I make my wormcastings with bokashi, and that is made from the leavings of my kitchen. Cooked food. Meat. Cheese. Bread. Prepared food. whatever. yet my worm bin is teeming. I would put my castings up against anyone's in a side by side in their own soil. Same or better. And jam packed with not just any salt it's NaCl. That's a pretty useless salt to a plant, taking up my total dissolved salt quota, yet I still have room for error! With MJ, squashes, tomatoes, peas, carrots, sprouts, greens, whatever! If it likes microbes, it likes my castings.
EDIT: may I point out, humbly, that attempting to define something once and for all is like keeping sand from slipping between your fingers. It's a pointless quest for authority over that which belongs to no man and to all men (and women!). Imagine if shakespeare had simply respected the authority of chaucer. Or if tories always had to have the exact same views. What crippling confines we would create for our own craniums if we could not alter our language in such an organic way.
Castelvetro
Member
if its personal smoke just hammer them as hard as u can untill there done and water cure em, nothing will beat this-
starving a plant weakens it, thats why when u flush what your really doing is just watering without run off if u do it properly, keeps the metabolism strong and alows things to be prcessed, its all timing. not a last minute waterfall of water in excess running through your dirt , dont forget everything in life is a posion n in the right dose a medicine, water will kill u much like it will kill your plants, too much will eliminate electrical conductivity and halt life-
starving a plant weakens it, thats why when u flush what your really doing is just watering without run off if u do it properly, keeps the metabolism strong and alows things to be prcessed, its all timing. not a last minute waterfall of water in excess running through your dirt , dont forget everything in life is a posion n in the right dose a medicine, water will kill u much like it will kill your plants, too much will eliminate electrical conductivity and halt life-
Chesticles
Member
didn't read the whole thread so sorry is this has been touched on already
etinarcadiaego mentioned a high times articles that spoke of flushing your plant not your organic soil, I believe this is possible and easily observable, only do this if you have a good draining medium
take 2 plants in an identical medium(organic or not)
water one heavily until runoff color is significantly lighter than initial runoff color(i got around 80% runoff)
do this as often as needed to keep the soil moist(every other day for me) you'll notice that although you watered till runoff cleared up, every time you water runoff is initially dark(i've done 4 waterings like this on one plant)
with the other plant let the medium completely dry out
when the plant is begging for water, water it with good runoff
you'll see the run off is much clearer than than the "flushed" medium
why is it the repeatedly flushed medium continues to produce dark runoff while the never flushed medium is much clearer, cause a medium always saturated with water will leach solubles from the plant, flushing the plant, its like a water cure
in conclusion, you can flush your plant in an organic mix
etinarcadiaego mentioned a high times articles that spoke of flushing your plant not your organic soil, I believe this is possible and easily observable, only do this if you have a good draining medium
take 2 plants in an identical medium(organic or not)
water one heavily until runoff color is significantly lighter than initial runoff color(i got around 80% runoff)
do this as often as needed to keep the soil moist(every other day for me) you'll notice that although you watered till runoff cleared up, every time you water runoff is initially dark(i've done 4 waterings like this on one plant)
with the other plant let the medium completely dry out
when the plant is begging for water, water it with good runoff
you'll see the run off is much clearer than than the "flushed" medium
why is it the repeatedly flushed medium continues to produce dark runoff while the never flushed medium is much clearer, cause a medium always saturated with water will leach solubles from the plant, flushing the plant, its like a water cure
in conclusion, you can flush your plant in an organic mix
J
JackTheGrower
you still get salts build up with organic growing.
so you need a couple of flushes.
It is possible to have some sort of problems and so that is the point of the forum to share organic soil experiences and tips.
We also do experimental stuff here such as the Black Solder fly and other things we do.
On flushing and soil problems: I believe most of the "Organic Soil People" view the watering of their containers enough to offset any normal "concerns."
I have understood that the need to flood is a sign of poor organic soil skills or an emergency situation .
I follow the when dry soak a healthy soak and that means some leachate goes to the drain in my box. Yes the drainage of this soil box is plumbed into the sewer.
See I went deep into Organic soil when I chose my gardening path. I have been into gardening since age 4 my Mom said..
What I feed is related to what I expect the system will process and provide to the plants. This last round I experimented with Coconut power as a microbial stimulant to top dressing processing. Too successful. Less is good in this case.
Anyway I do think it's clear now. I don't doubt that small container growing is a different bird all together. My moms are in 1 gallons and they show nutrient problems because the soil they are in isn't large enough to support extended biological activity over time. Then again they get big and need to be re-cloned any way so it works out.
I would expect, for the plants in small soil / small containers, to be much like a person living is a small box; as to how the plants would enjoy their living space of small soil.
Anyway.. I love "Organic Soil." Obviously I am willing to risk being banned to fight for it.
On the Computer side of things Friends:
On the topic of another hobby of mine now; Theoretical Data Compression. I have a true bijective codex. It's a big step forward for sure.. And it's mine..
It's something of import to the friends too.I am working on a decoder for an advanced data compression algorithm currently so I just popped on to reference some code linguistics and stopped in. Smoking Organic Soil Grown while I write code!
So friends.. We all see how our fellow gardeners get confused over the soil issue. It's a toe-mate-Oh or toe-MOT-toe kind of thing but it's important to the fellas who have been hanging a few years as it's unique to grow sites; I assume. It's not a "Borg" situation IMO.
Here, at my house, the current garden has over grown it "flip point" so I guess it's another seed crop thing.. LOL It has to take back seat to the coding for a bit. I am wondering how the "Tiki jo" will taste.
Hey fellas the seed shake from the last grow has mellowed out something nice.. LOL I love the doobies they are so smooth. I have to admit GH White Rhino is way different a little cured/aged than harvest-dry..
When I say smooth I mean wayyyyy Smoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooth..
Alright I am going back to work.. Be Well!
Ernst
optic sizzle
Member
i hear you on soil volume. I figure it should at least match the outline of the canopy. I tried what I have now with 1 gallon pots. No go. But with guano or miracle grow I could do it.
I've got just over 3 gallons now on little modular scrogs, but I am moving to 14 gallon tubs with a living soil I will build starting with some healthy local soil. I just need to figure out the screen.
chesticles: I don't water to runoff generally. I keep things moist with plant nannies. i only let it dry to get rid of gnats. when they aren't around it's good to water early and often and only a little. like voting. If it works for a landrace indica, and it works for a standard hybrid, there must be something to it. If you don't overload with NO3 and bacterial foods you will not need to bother with all that. If you want to stress your plant, go right ahead, flush, flood, bend, stab, break, freeze, poke, skin, bruise, shave, and cut. Even bite. Use your imagination. I suggest though, that leaving the soil alone is a good move. Attack the stem instead.
but if we are talking flushing is giving just water, I do it from day one with few exceptions. unless castings is considered feeding? If you want to prevent excess N, and free up some P, try feeding the soil more fungal food, less bacterial. But I'm not sure you can just flip a switch like 12/12. Not in organics.
I've got just over 3 gallons now on little modular scrogs, but I am moving to 14 gallon tubs with a living soil I will build starting with some healthy local soil. I just need to figure out the screen.
chesticles: I don't water to runoff generally. I keep things moist with plant nannies. i only let it dry to get rid of gnats. when they aren't around it's good to water early and often and only a little. like voting. If it works for a landrace indica, and it works for a standard hybrid, there must be something to it. If you don't overload with NO3 and bacterial foods you will not need to bother with all that. If you want to stress your plant, go right ahead, flush, flood, bend, stab, break, freeze, poke, skin, bruise, shave, and cut. Even bite. Use your imagination. I suggest though, that leaving the soil alone is a good move. Attack the stem instead.
but if we are talking flushing is giving just water, I do it from day one with few exceptions. unless castings is considered feeding? If you want to prevent excess N, and free up some P, try feeding the soil more fungal food, less bacterial. But I'm not sure you can just flip a switch like 12/12. Not in organics.
S
SicKSKills
in coco, i flush by the standard def, lots of clean water through each container, each day, 10 days before harvest.....in an organic soil grow i would and used to just cut em off from nutes a little more than 2 wks before chop and water normally each watering with clean water, hopefully at least 6 plain waterings and just let em eat up everything left in the soil. seems pretty much standard.
optic sizzle
Member
I think it's a mistake to assume thy since you can't flush you can't affect n supply.
If you can build a soil over time (months - years) that has a strong fungal component, you will tame the poop loop, and avoid any need for flushing. Why this was framed in the first place as a choice between overfeeding bacteria and trying to fix it, or overfeeding and not fixing it, I don't know.
I think the op should read the new edition of teaming with microbes along with me, so perhaps we can all find some common ground - and vocabulary.
If you can build a soil over time (months - years) that has a strong fungal component, you will tame the poop loop, and avoid any need for flushing. Why this was framed in the first place as a choice between overfeeding bacteria and trying to fix it, or overfeeding and not fixing it, I don't know.
I think the op should read the new edition of teaming with microbes along with me, so perhaps we can all find some common ground - and vocabulary.
LoudBlunts
Member
*wonders just how many of our veggie and fruit growers that flush their crops*
Great thread CC, i havent read through the whole thread so i apologise if i hit on anything already said.
In reference to the term flushing, what you said about flushing is what i would call "leaching" and flushing is the ridding the plant of excess nutrient in the form of salts as you have already stated with water. Mostly i just use the term flushing though as it seems to be the standard.
I leach with about 2-3 times the pot volume three weeks prior to harvest then give plain water for the next three weeks.
I find some nutrients usually additives stims etc. just wont flush even when using a flushing product, i have no idea why.
It would be interesting to know whats in some of these flushing products and how they really work iv been trying one out.
Peace
In reference to the term flushing, what you said about flushing is what i would call "leaching" and flushing is the ridding the plant of excess nutrient in the form of salts as you have already stated with water. Mostly i just use the term flushing though as it seems to be the standard.
I leach with about 2-3 times the pot volume three weeks prior to harvest then give plain water for the next three weeks.
I find some nutrients usually additives stims etc. just wont flush even when using a flushing product, i have no idea why.
It would be interesting to know whats in some of these flushing products and how they really work iv been trying one out.
Peace
Why would you want to?
Minerals are part of the nutritional content...
unless you're smoking the fruits and veggies, i guess...
Didnt read though the whole thread but has Moblile & Imobile elements been mentioned, Not everything can be removed within the plant anyway, so a plant needs chance to use up what it has stored whilst taking away its supply of these elements, to fully accomplish any sort of flush. Your not gonna get everything out anyway, no matter how hard you try, but the EXCESS should at least be used up by the plant to give sweet tasting produce.!
just my 20p for what its worth!
just my 20p for what its worth!
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