Let's define "flushing" once-and-for-all.

[LAMBS-BREAD]

My rain water have 0 ppm or ec but my tap water do have 0,4...will it be a real flush if the tap water is used?

My first organic grow, i had used strickly tap water during the all cycle, can that be considerig as a long therm flushing? I guess all the diferent thechniques, mentioned here, to remove salt and minerals in soil are a part of the flushing process.

Where i live, the raining season come from Sept to Feb. During that time is a mix of cold, snow and rain, But mostly rain. I noticed that those rain bring a lot of leaves and lil stems down to the ground which will be the new humus. I guess is a part of the Mother Nature flushing process...Maybe.

My last question. The short therm flushing using "tones" of water, is that really flush the medium? if yes then when will u have to start flush? After 8 weeks of intensive feeding, i doubt that flushing a week really remove salt and minerals. Maybe im wrong...Imagine for 3 months strain? flushing last week won't remove anything IMVHO.

 

[Fat Tone]

Will cutting the plants down at harvest and letting them sit in a cup of water help flush the buds? Im not talking about the thick stems.I'm saying chopping it down to the buds and leave a little stem on it to put in the water.

Will this help guys?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

i doubt it

 

[indifferent]

It won't help, I'm pretty sure of that.

I'm finding different flushing properties with different PK boosters. Canna PK13-14, Atami PK13-14 and AN Hammerhead all seem to need a 2 week flush in coco to get rid of any taste from the PK. However, with Atami Bloombastic I'm finding I need to flush 3 weeks or there is a taste left. Other people have told me they had the same issue with Vitalink Buddy. I'm currently triallying AN powdered Big Bud, my second run with it and last run produced some of the tastiest plants I've ever grown and they had only 10 days of flush due to my needing to chop em 4-5 days early.

I never have any problems with N as i cut it out long before the flush starts and the plant eats it all, but P and K is another matter, I feed a lot of it in the 2-3 weeks before flush to maximise yields and what you put in you have to get out again and the plant never uses all of the PK you can give it before it burns, some is always stored.

 

[*mistress*]

interesting thread...

only reasons to 'flush' seem:

1... if whatever was input into the solution, &/or media, will affect taste, after-taste, aroma, combustion & effect of fruit.

2... adjust ph &/or ec of media, &/or solution...

ran many methods w/ success.
kbs, aero-buckets, dwc, organic soil, soilless mix, coco, coco mix, perlite, bark, lava, etc, etc...

any tech, if know cultivar & needs, can make so feed until day of harvest. depends on cultivar & different nute demands of plant.

some plants seem to prefer more cal than mag, or vice versa, during mid-flowering. so, ph adjusted optimally for ea heavy metal to get thru... this is 'flush' to adjust ph.

generally want root ec to climb steadily to 3.0+... this high root ec is stored food that is distributed 24/7 during respiration. due to roots being osmotic, higher solution ec required to get thru concentration gradient, to get to roots. so... increase ec to maintain lots of sugars that eventually travel to fruit when signal given (maturity).

if organic soil, different methods/inputs... same desired result though:

clean, fresh, dry fruit that holds weight, texture & terrior of input (media + solution(s)), but permits natural aromatics of fruit to dominate.

if familiar w/ cultivar(s), can dial individual regimes to ea cut. some may require wk of water to get taste . some may not require any 'flush' @ all, maybe due to manner specific plant metabolizes sugars & expresses them in fruit... maybe...

running same cuts over/over/over/over & finding precise day to stop, or max out plants. difficult when going from seed... or change nutes/feeding regime ea garden...

a pure i, that only gets 18x18x18" inch after 8 wk 1k veg, does not have same requirements as 6x6x6" tai, w/ same 8 wk veg.

w/ feed-water-feed-water-feed. gh flora nova bloom, full strength, bottle instructions (15ml/gal). +few supplements... volume amount provided 1/5 volume (liquid) of container per 48 hrs... can do this regime up until day of cut.

'flush' seems only required/not required to affect taste/combustion... terrior plays part in this as well. even if plant is fed full strength chem ferts, may not require 'flush', especially if ph kept in check thru-out...

the harvesting & curing is just as critical in the taste/aromatics of final fruit. taste can be horrible even if grown to full maturity, full organic, full chemical... if gardener fails to harvest, pre-cure, dry & cure properly...

another interesting, slightly unrelated thread... but, ultimately goes to point of taste as primary barometer for need of flush or not - whatever the medium, ferts or teas, etc... member Crazy Composer may reflect on this 1...

The Big Secret
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=79104&highlight=chemical

enjoy your garden!

 

[jack DA reaper]

Interesting Thread as most i know Call it fading out ,,,,,When you give your last feed about 20days before chop ....Then just feed plain WATER n carbs To the end !!

In a pure hydro system Like Hydroton or Dwc .....is where real flushing in 4-5 days works

Fading<~~~~ Let it fade

 

[JackTheGrower]

Having been alerted to this thread I will make a reply.

Lets talk about Organic Soil. If we use Wikipedia we get a reference to the earth.

Essentially what we have here is Organic Style growing with CrazyComposter and that's all fine.

However Organic soil is a living system and unless it floods most organic soils deal with simple rain.

So the point of Organic Soil Forum to me is to share information on organic Soil or "Natural" earth processes of which regular floods are not a part.

My soil is going on 9 years old here. I made it from peat, pine, alfalfa and other materials at the start.
It has been fed organic materials over time and has developed humus. Humus is a desired state of organic soil it make a stable growing situation.

Anyway Organic Style is fine but this is organic soil forum. We don't flush or flood and we get great bud.

So that is the problem and has been since I came here in 96.

There is a difference between Organic Soil and Organic Style.

If someone is tending the soil as if it was alive it's organic soil if they are flooding and destroying the natural balance in the "organic soil" with flooding or flushing it is organic style.

In this case the growing of plants is separate from the maintenance of our organic soils.

I don't know how to explain any better. If we are not caring for our organic soil as if it is a living system then it's organic style rather than true Organic Soil.

So That's all I can do here.


Ernst

 

[Warpainted]

starve "I starve my soil for 4 weeks before harvest."

 

[unthing]

Good points Jack

And yeah starving/fading sounds like a good term for intentional yellowing in the last weeks of bloom by giving plain water (or like some to with a bit molasses etc), flushing reserving for flooding of the medium.

 

[Stinkymutt]

what do we call it though ?

what do we call it though ?

So whats the term to use in organic type growing vs. chemical fert. I mean as far as the original definition CC gave for "flush". If flush is a bad term for an organic type plant , than what would it be called if only water was given to allow plant to use up all nutrients possible until cut. Whether needed or not. Someone else mentioned starving .
just curious
Mutt

 

[Mister Postman]

To me to "flush" is to allow the plant to use up nutrients in the medium, as well as stored nutrients in the plant itself..

With more inert mediums, and complete hydroponic nutrients this can be achieved with two methods...It can be done over a shorter period of time with heavier waterings (flushing the medium), or it can be done over a longer period of time, by cutting back on nute dosages earlier, and using pure water feedings the last couple weeks... I'm poersonally in favor of the later, I think of the first example a save after you already screwed up...

In organic soils where the organic matter is not likely to be flushed completely from the medium with heavy waterings, the longer process of cutting back on feedings, and allowing a gradual flush of the medium/plant is the method most widely practiced I do believe..

And well others, they don't believe in a flush at all, and say they harvest green plants, and achieve clean burning product with this method.. I personally haven't had the pleasure yet... My best product be it hydro/coco, or organic soil has been had with flushed plants. When my plants are done, I like them to appear done. Like a tomato or other fruit/flower yielding plant would when it reaches the end of the line...

To flush is to flush... It's the methods of obtaining the goal that is the difference between the two styles of growing that confuses many.

 

[Trichgnomes]

Nice point Jack. We feed soil here, not plants. Did someone say something about PK-13/14? No offense to any particular growing style, but I do not think that belongs in this forum.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I thought of a better way to say it so I came back


1. I have been hanging out because i believe we maintain organic soil in the organic soil forum. That is my thing.

2. It's not about the plant in the medium as much as the Organic Soil that we grow plants in. Subtle but important distinction.

How a person chooses to grow their plants doesn't bother me.
That this Organic soil forum isn't for Organic soil topic and is for organic growing style topic is wrong, in my mind.

We can make a second forum so we can expand the mission. No need to destroy one for the other.

So Be well..

I'm trying to make a million dollars.. Wish me luck..


Ernst

PS call me Ernst please that's my name and I am our of the Cannabis Closet..

 

[vonforne]

Great post Ernst!

V

 

[Microbeman]

I believe a concept being missed is that with living soil, one does not 'deplete' the soil of nutrients. Nutrients are sequestered in organic matter and utilized by the plant in the form necessary to support it in its phase of growth (e.g. veg or flower) at the direction of the plant (via carbon substances discharged through the roots)When the plant kicks into flower it cuts off the process which provides N through the root system and it naturally yellows, approaching death. This does not necessarily mean all nutrients are discontinued. The plant may still stimulate the uptake/delivery of other nutrients like P through fungal/bacterial interactions. (thereby increasing flower/fruit mass).

BTW this does not preclude the grower from occasionally assisting with nutrient inputs through topdressing and some growers may make the error of using an input unintelligently or excessively, thereby upsetting the balance.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

You guys with the living soil are on to the real true organic growing. The purist/natural approach. This is something i hope to achieve soon.

Sorry if i have been muddying the water with my experience as it is mostly in soiless medium with bout 25% soil/compost.

Should we have a soiless organic forum?

The question remains what defines a flush?

In a pot its 3 times the volume with fresh water...

 

[Microbeman]

CrazyC, for sake of shop talk discussion I just wish to let you know I'd still like to see a response to post #45 if you have one. Or if you wish to drop it, I'll understand but then perhaps leave it dropped. I'm assuming you are coming to a fuller comprehension of what I mean by growing in living soil. This is not recycled soil. It is living.

 

[Fat Tone]

Will cutting the plants down at harvest and letting them sit in a cup of water help flush the buds? Im not talking about the thick stems.I'm saying chopping it down to the buds and leave a little stem on it to put in the water.

Will this help guys?

I didn't think it would work either.I just wanted to know what y'all guys thought about it.I got the idea from the Skunk Magazine,Volume 2.
,Issue 6.There is a article in there about flushing by The Rev.This is what he said.

Quote:
The Emergency Flush
If you find yourself in need of immediate harvesting and haven't been able to flush, this technique can help.Its a pseudo-flush.It dosn't replace a regular flush but comes close, giving about 75-80 percent benefits of a full flush.

Whack the plant down and put individual stems with buds in a bottle of rainwater,RO Water, or distilled water.Put the stem in the water and put the plant back in the grow room for another day or two, depending on your temperature and humidity.If your temps are in the 70's then two days.If your temps are in the 80's then one day is fine.Then simply proceed as if you had cut them after they were properly flushed.You'll notice a huge diffrence.

I'm going to give it a try once I harvest.I will give you guys my results.

 

[Fat Tone]

starve "I starve my soil for 4 weeks before harvest."

He also had a paragraph about overflushing with some pics of some plants that are overflushed.He said when leaves turn yellow and the leaves wither and drop.Not only is bud production halted, but also resin output drops drastically.Heavy flushing weakens the plants' defense and immune system.Your plants shouldn't suffer from advanced symptoms of under feeding prior to harvest.

 

[optic sizzle]

what a thread!

would love to see the answer to that, and I wonder who said ionic nutes are stored inside bacteria? not anyone I know, but I'm new here. Probably they were talking about proteins, amino acids, ATP, the cell structures themselves in active, dormant, and dead organisms... along with other non soluble and/or non plant-available forms of micro and macronutrients.

Probably in economics, you would call that fungible (liquid) vs. non-fungible assets.


Soil biology expresses in its simplest forms a set of reactions and counter-reactions so complex as to completely surpass the descriptive powers of chemistry.

First of all I apologize in advance if I have missed something.

1/ I'd be interested in a definition of the soil used in the above statement. I'm assuming this is with guano topdressed as the only amendment(?)

2/It would be interesting to see some citations or recorded data to support your statements of the
"measurable salts in organic soil run-off."

3/ I am assuming you are using an EC/TDS meter in your measurements of 'ionic salts' contained in the run-off. I'm not sure if you are aware but there are many of us in the organic growing field who have been questioning the efficacy of these meters in this application, that is measuring of ionic salts in a liquid with suspended organic matter (OM). The propensity for the readings of the electrical current to be skewed by OM particles is very high. Because of this most have discontinued using the EC/TDS meter for attempting to accurately measure ionic salts in an OM slurry. Don't get me wrong; the meter has many practical uses, I use it to test my water all the time and the meters are great for carbon mapping.

I researched this fairly thoroughly some time ago and had an online discussion with some fairly knowledgeable people (sorry, I have yet to locate my notes). I was directed to seek the ultimate information from The US Composting Council at http://www.tmecc.org I ended up contacting one of their top experts to get his opinion on this and here is his response.
"EC test is a measure of the conductivity of a solution. Two poles are inserted into the solution with known separation and the amount of electricity or current passing from one pole to the other via the solution is measured. In my opinion, it is not a very elegant or reliable test method as there are so many potential interferences ... especially when the main interest is to approximate the water-soluble salt (NaCl) ion concentration of a solution.

Thank you,
- Wayne

Wayne H. Thompson - Extension Program Specialist, Biofuels Agronomist
Texas AgriLife Extension Service
Soil and Crop Sciences Department - Texas A & M University
434 Heep Center - Mailstop 2474
College Station, TX 77843-2474"