Why is my unflushed plant turning yellow and dying?

[VerdantGreen]

guys, i dont disagree with anything you are saying really. rock itself will slowly dissolve and add minerals to the water - so soil - which is essetially rock and organic matter, will provide nutrition all by itself and of course the microbes and fauna are incredibly good at what they do.

..... A handful of compost technically contains enough molecules of each nutrient required to grow more than one plant. ......

but we both know that if you tried to grow a plant all the way through inn say LC's basic mix without any added ferts/guanos etc that it would fail.

microbeman - nettles are an indicator plant for fertiile soil. if one of my clients points me towards a patch of nettles and says he wants to grow dahlias there i will know that they are likely to be happy.

we've talked about the forests before and i pointed out that it's the salmon run every year that provides the major source of nutrients for the huge trees and in general is an incredibly imortant way in which nutrients are recycled from the ocean to the land.

i'll do some reading on senescence, my idea of nutes running short helping is just a theory - just as mj putting his cab in the cold basement to encourage finishing was a theory.
but i am confident in what i observe about the matter - even if i cant explain it scientifically.

V.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Verdant; I noticed in your photos a distinct separation of the yellowing of the plants with the bottoms remaining green. When they finish are they pretty much yellowing on the bottoms as well? This was pretty much the case with my race (strain).

i think the camera flash makes the upper leaves look more yellow. with scrog there is not so much of a bottom anyway. i find that the plant will re-use the stored nutes in the leaves under the screen pretty early in the grow because they are getting no light and that must trigger the plant to recycle them.

 

[VerdantGreen]

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/60/4/1063?ck=nck

this article seems to suggest that senescience is encouraged by low nitrogen - bit technical for me so i may have got it wrong

V.

 

[jaykush]

.... A handful of compost technically contains enough molecules of each nutrient required to grow more than one plant. ......

i disagree with this, not all compost will contain what is needed. and i have a good example of such.

my compost is made up of a great diversity of materials( and i try very hard to keep it that way), it will have a high diversity of nutrients, minerals and microbial life because of such.

now......i have tried the local compost and 90% of the time it is pure CRAP( i have asked and seen where they compost), literally..... they take animal manure and hay, and compost it( if you could even call it that). the bare minimum needed to create what most would call compost. animal manure can only contain so many different nutrients alone and so can the hay, it might help if they used different manures, but they and most don't. i highly doubted they would contain all nutrients and minerals needed for a healthy soil and plant growth. multiple side by side tests confirmed my beliefs. as well as many times before testing commercial composts from around California.

 

[maryjohn]

yeah Jay, sorry, that got discussed earlier. I'm thinking of the good stuff. Good point.

Verdant, I have conceded that everything else being equal, adding 20% coco will reduce the potential biomass in your mix by the same amount. How can the same microbes from the same compost deliver the same N if you cut their numbers by at least 20%. Do microbes even need to be involved for this to hold true? If you cut everything, you'll cut everything. And in your case, it provided a different set of conditions and a slightly different result, which you enjoyed. Maybe adding the coco did absolutely nothing significant to N availability? Who knows? Trial and success. Well, If what I am going to do works, it will work for you too.

For the record, I put the cab in the basement to make them red, and my reason was "why the hell not?".

Nutrients will still cycle, just like any soil. And the daily dividend will be less, just like before.

Your sense of nutes is still like an hourglass running out, rather than a nutrient cycle providing small amounts and taking back what is not received. The plant isn't the only N consumer in mix. And those "small amounts" can vary in size. Do you think the microbes are any less important to desert plants? They can work around silica, they can work around coco.

 

[xmobotx]

quite the interesting "trick thread"

I have seen a lot of people worried about normal yellowing of fan leaves in the twilight of the plants life - and a lot of people quick to give advice about what the plant "needs" when it is simply nature taking it's course.

Also true though is that these indications can be a nice clue to how your grow may have been better. While senescence is normal - there is also normal senescence. (of course, many strains have a steeper decline in those twilight weeks) And, the late characteristics may exhibit clues as to what deficiencies may have been present in the plant's life.

There is little point in attempting to "correct' a plant in late flower - but, the next crop may be improved by knowledge gained during senescence.


Jaykush: Bagged commercial "compost" has been disappointing to me - I definitely prefer my own - especially now that I'm planning on incorporating charcoal!

 

[jmansweed]

VG, I was rereading this post - which is incrediably informative btw - and I wanted to give you my 2 cents of support. As I grow my plants organically, though not in the traditional methods, I have to agree with your theory of nute applications nudging senescence in the right direction. As the idea is relatively new to me - flushing is not. I've always applied "flushes" to my plants. The first being water w/ mollasses - the second excessive amounts of pH balanced water only. Typically I flower a plant out without a flush initially to determine when I feel it's ready for harvest. When I clone and flower the same strain out again I'll begin the flushing procedure at what I believe the appropriate time. I've been thinking allot about senescence since you guy's mentioned it here and I must agree that it seems as if removing the act of pollination and removing the process of gradual diminishing outdoor light and other environmental factors that this process would not be incorporated untill later in a plants life indoors. I'm eager to learn more on this subject. Could you recommend a book maybe - if you've read one concerning the matter.

MJ - Let me quickly apologize for our initial conversations regarding my first Hygrozyme post. I'm sincerly humbled here. You have some seriously interesting posts here and it's extremely hard to disagree with your logic/science. I've seen results with flushing, but I grow under drastically different methods. Soiless w/ orgainic (mostly) soluble additives (made into teas). Although my goal is similar in that developing microbial life to feed my plant is my priority , the development of the "life" is a some what different. I noticed you mentioned coco essentially retains little microbial life as there is no biomass in which it binds to. I use primarily peat based pro-mix. I've always been under the impression, and seen evidence that this medium sort of becomes a richer soil as the plant grows in the pot and the microbial life establishes itself. Basically, I start with a sterile medium - choose and add nutreints to promote appropriate microbial blooms and then rely on this microbial life to feed my plant. This process gets repeated weekly. I also flush with a tremendous amount of water. The pro-mix is a healthier soil after the grow even after the flushes. Now, typically some of my plants begin to yellow the week prior to my first flush, some strains stay green. In regards to the yellowing ones, which are almost always my sativa dominate strains, it would seem as if senescence is starting and I'm helping it out. The greener plants, or the ones I believe not to have initiated senescence, definately begin to yellow after flushing implying a direct reaction to recieving less nutes and more water - so I think. I understand the process of senescence but have trouble accepting it's relavance in controlled environments and controlled feeding applications. It seems as if certain strains resist this reaction, perhaps because of a lack of pollination or such? When I mentioned I initially grow a plant out to determine it's maturity date I look for certain symtoms to expose this to me. Determining this is probably meant for a different thread, but quickly explained I look at trichrome color, growth vigor and some typical signals that she's ready for harvest. I don't ussually look at yellowing or signs that the plant is using it's researves up - this doesn't happen because I'm feeding realtively steady throughout. I will experience that with the second grow that includes flushes. Your thoughts?

 

[Microbeman]

Verdant; I was not referring to forests where there are salmon runs, etc. but to the miriad of forests where I live in the mountains which are 200 miles from the closest salmon runs, etc.

The nettles growing here are actually growing in very poor soil, as I have also seen them throughout Germany and France in roadside gravel. My point, which you seemingly skirted, was not that there are many sources of nutrients in nature but was to counter your assertion that senescence is caused by nutrient depletion in the soil. (BTW I like your Freudian slip 'senescience')

I am not knocking your method but have my doubts that it is natural growing based (strictly IMO). But here! here! for using less harmful inputs.

 

[Microbeman]

jmansweed; Just so you know, sphagnum peat is loaded with microbes http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Canadian_Sphagnum_Peat

 

[maryjohn]

yup, loaded. I never put microbes in my drosera, but if I put tapwater, they explode and kill my plant to make room for soil plants. Some of my sphagnum has spores apparently, because I am now growing live sphagnum. Incidentally, only at the base of a drosera binata, and nowhere else.

looks suspiciously cooperative to me.

 

[jmansweed]

Mj - are you saying your peat actually spored and came to life?

Microbeman - thanks for the link.

What do you think of my flushing process? Is it another example af starving the plant? Or helping senescence along? I'm thinking flushing does have a place in indoor cannabis gardening but many aspects determine this. After years of growing you guys have me rethinking some methods - which is dangerous when things are dialed in........

 

[VerdantGreen]

guys, im not talking in absolutes here, but i do think that letting the plant run short will encourage it to finish right. im not saying it is the only factor, just one contributing factor
ill go through the thread again later and try to address some more stuff.

V.

jman - couldnt recommend a book but lots of info on the net if you search.

 

[Microbeman]

jmansweed; If you are happy with your results, why not stick with it? If you wish to experiment, then try it on a limited scale. All I can tell you is that I grew for about 5 years, replacing soil after each crop, increasing P at flowering stage, cutting out nutrients pre-harvest and on and on. When I switched methods (7? more years) to large bins, etc. (see 'food for thought thread') the only big changes I noticed was 1/ more popular item on the menu at the compassion club 2/ less disease 3/ less labor 4/ lower costs 5/ more satisfying.

 

[maryjohn]

Jman, I can't get my damn phone to focus on it, but you can kind of tell something is there. Little green trees, sort of, about 1 or 2 cm high. Look at the base of the plant, by the pen tip. Oh yeah, that green everywhere is moss as well, but I think of a different type. The black stuff I don't know. I think this container needs attention! Damn MJ taking all my time and love! Maybe it's not sphagnum? anyway, it hasn't happened in the other pots, and the plant I purchased was bare root, no medium. It's peat from Home Depot and half perlite. R/O water. That moss came from somewhere.

You should really consider microbeman's advice. I'm not putting all my eggs in this basket either. It's quite possible I won't have enough mass or volume. I would fall on my face in that case, and quasi perpetual soil would once again be something only for those who can use big tubs. I'm aiming to finish a grow, but remember, I only need to get through veg without deficiency to prove my original point: the plant is dying because of natural processes. How about just one tub?

 

[jmansweed]

Thanks for the info and advice. As some of you know I frequently do tests with different feeding applications and environmental changes. Most of these tests are in addition to my normal crop grown with my traditional methods. I've been putting together some comparisons and want to include an organic grow more related to the methods you guys seem to adhere to. I specifically want to include various flushing techniques or no flushing at all. I suppose time will tell. Thanks again.

 

[Stoned Crow]

guys, im not talking in absolutes here, but i do think that letting the plant run short will encourage it to finish right. im not saying it is the only factor, just one contributing factor

Do you think that with a proper dry and cure, bud that doesn't finish right (mature but not showing deficiencies) can be as good as bud that shows deficiencies? I've smoked alot of bud in my day, and IMHO, bud that has green leaves at harvest can taste just as good as bud that is dead when harvested (of course a slower dry and longer cure is needed).

I'm just not completely sold on the idea that a plant needs to be almost dead in order to be good smoke, and I think it's gotten to almost myth status. One of the first magazine articles I read here a few years ago (I think it was Gypsey himself who wrote it), talked about a plant outside of where he was staying, and how it had cured on the vine.

If I'm able to keep a plant alive beyond the flower cycle after the hell I put it through by growing it in my garden, it seems to me that there has to be many mj plants in the wild that don't die at the end of the flower cycle.

 

[grapeman]

No problem jman. On flushing/flooding healthy soils. I liken it to rivers flooding lowland areas each year. It doesn't leach nutrients it adds them. It enriches the entire area and those who farm these places don't need fertiliser. A healthy soil is full of things attracted to particles, and that particles are attracted to, making it a great filter. Of course, depending on what it is filtering, it may become an unhealthy soil...

A plant undergoing senescence wants to start breaking things down in the leaves to use them for all sorts of other jobs, including those involved in flowering. A plants nutritional requirements change, but if the nutrition is available in the soil this is never a problem. A healthy plant takes what it needs from several sources at this stage of life, atmospheric, roots, and via senescence.

If nature is left to run it's course the plant will make changes in metabolic pathways and nutritional uptake will change with it, and among many other things, you will see signs of senescence.

If you spray things on the leaves to correct imbalances after flowering cycle you are likely messing with the plants ability to finish properly. With kelp you will be. It may increase yield, I don't really know. I do think a lot of soil imbalances come from people adding too much of everything believing this will equate to more pot for them. Then they see problems and start spraying stuff, band aiding the real problem.

Less is best when it comes to nutes and senescence is completely natural. There's plenty of good recipes to show growers how to load a soil up when mixing it, and then they don't need a cupboard full of expensive shit to try correct things later when it's too late. A good soil mix, with 2-3 compost teas (not nute soups), will give a grower all they require nutritionally from start to finish.

When it comes to soil mixes I'm a fan of adding nutrient laden char, compost and worm castings, and recycling my soil. For compost teas I listen to what our resident scientists have to say, and get results because of this. My old nute soups were completely average in contrast to what a good tea can do (to really see the difference try it outdoors on some garden that is shitty).

Wrote a rant... time for another smoke then.

MrFista is pretty much right on here. Aside from soil, nutrient availability, watering regimes etc., senescence is also influenced by genetics. I've seen it over and over in farms with tens of thousands of plants/vines. All of a sudden, usually at the fruiting stage, you see leaf senescence here or there. Never a bad thing really, if it is occurring at a natural time of plant life. IMO.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Do you think that with a proper dry and cure, bud that doesn't finish right (mature but not showing deficiencies) can be as good as bud that shows deficiencies? I've smoked alot of bud in my day, and IMHO, bud that has green leaves at harvest can taste just as good as bud that is dead when harvested (of course a slower dry and longer cure is needed).

I'm just not completely sold on the idea that a plant needs to be almost dead in order to be good smoke, and I think it's gotten to almost myth status. One of the first magazine articles I read here a few years ago (I think it was Gypsey himself who wrote it), talked about a plant outside of where he was staying, and how it had cured on the vine.

If I'm able to keep a plant alive beyond the flower cycle after the hell I put it through by growing it in my garden, it seems to me that there has to be many mj plants in the wild that don't die at the end of the flower cycle.

imo curing will certainly help break down the chlorophyl - which is one of the things that masks the true taste of the weed.

not sure what you mean about mj in the wild as it would be likely seeded and much more likely to die - it's genes protected.

---

here is an interesting article about - it seems that senescence is a complicated process with many genes contributing to the process.
again to me it seems to imply that nutrients are one factor that contributes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC395757/

V.

 

[maryjohn]

Stoned, in nature all annuals and biennials die after reproducing (or attempting to reproduce). It is an evolutionary strategy that has paid off big time. Sticking around to compete with your offspring would defeat the purpose. It's something worth reading about.

They even have little tricks to further ensure a chance to pass on genes. Ever notice a bean (for eating) that doesn't get soft like the others when you soak it, just hard as a rock even after soaking overnight? Annuals often produce a small percentage of really tough seeds that don't sprout - until two seasons later. Should a disaster befall the "normal" seedlings, wiping out the whole generation, the super tough seed is insurance.

Stoned, I share your sense that genetics is what makes things go round, but it's been implied lately that a balanced organic soil needs to be flushed or it will have a pernicious effect on quality. I find this position nonsensical for many reasons posted here, and don't even share the aesthetic position that curing on the plant is the holy grail of quality.

But people want to see yellow plants at harvest, or they won't believe. Could be this one yellowed as a result of cold, which actually only supports my position that any stress will tax the plant and bring on early death (including the water torture many use when they flush). Those taking an organic and biologically centered view of soil need to run more runs in soil that cycles nutrients, with plants that die on time. Proof is in the pudding.

 

[VerdantGreen]

mj would you agree though that in organic gardening its bad practice to grow anything in too rich a soil as it just leads to soft sappy growth that has less disease resistance and tends to be much more attractibe to pests. using just enough nutrition in the soil for the plant is the right thing to do for many reasons.

did you look at the link i posted ?

V.