Ugently seeking diagnosis, updated pictures

[grant123]

IF someone can link these pictures to the thread i would appreciate it LINK TO PICTURES>> http://picasaweb.google.com/xMissyLoux/Plants02#

i just transplanted these guys into there biobuckets from a e-z cloner 1week ago, they were looking a little bleek, and now its looking rose...im panicking, can you help me out?

Hong has this problem been going on? ~9 days progessivly worse,
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Bio Buckets DWC x18

What STRAIN are you growing? Gold Digger and 3-m

What was the establishing technique? clone
What is the age of your plants? 3.5 wk

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?9 days
How tall are the plants? 6-12in]
What PHASE are the plants in? Veg
What Technique are you using? Biobuckets DWC
What substrate/medium are you using? Black Cinder(lavarock)
What is the Water temperature? 68*
What color are your roots?whitish but staining from Flora micro
What Nutrient's are you using GH Micro and GH bloom
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water?
5ml micro/gal 8ml bloom/gal
How often are you feeding?Top up nutrients 1x week
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? 1st micro 2 bloom What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 500~
What is the pH of the "Tank"?6.1
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? yes, calibration solution used
When was your last watering?
What is your water temps? 68
When was your last feeding change? top up today
How often do you clean your system: flushed 24 hours ago this my first bio run, and biobuckets are designed to not need rez change out, so if all goes as planned Never hopefully , but possibly once before i start bloom if i feel the Benny bacteria isnt keeping up.
What size bulb are you using? x8 1k hps
What is the distance to the canopy? 3 ft or so, keeping it high because just switched from t5
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 45
What is the canopy temperature? 78
What is the Day/Night Temp? 74-80 day 60/70 night (Include flucutaion range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)5 18"oscilattinig fans
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Sealed Room, Hoods intake and exhaust outside of room.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? part of the time, oscillating fans on each wall
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Somewhere in the middle?
What water are you using?50-50 R/O and Well water (used sucessfully last 3 runs)
Are you using water from a water softener?no
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched minor pruning of un-healthy leaves, that looked worse then pictures.
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? Yes, neem oil and aza max 24 hours ago
Are plant's infected with pest's? You tell me, possibly, see pics

 

[h&r]

My opine would be this:

Change your substrate to something other than lavarock, try Dyna-Rok II or hydroton if you must do DWC.

Your getting poor availability of nutrients, fungi.

Those plants look fabulous for being in lavarock.

Curiously, where did you get the idea to use lavarocks?

 

[grant123]

from Bigtokes how to- bio bucket thread. Its a new idea for me as well, theory behind it is its more pourus (sp) and provides a better home for bacteria

 

[h&r]

Holy shit I never knew anyone recommended lava rock here, quite suprising to me.

This isnt much of a diagnosis, I dont have that much time, but Ill say the following since no one else is helping you.

Since your roots are getting stained, this would be a major problem you always always want pristine white roots.

Is you rnutrient getting any kind of extra oxygenation, constant movement in the res, if not look into that and use Canna Rhizotonic.

Myself I would test the smallest trial pack of tri-flex nutrient since its clear, you will love it I promise.


Did you get the EXACT type of lavarock BIgToke spoke of?

This is a good time to test a few buckets with a hydroton, Dyna- rok mix to see if it helps and flush with plain water for a few days then run some some dilute triflex with Rhizotonic, if after a few days of that the roots dont improve I would say do some major trimming of roots.

When you switch media, if you have a problem with the roots letting go of the rocks you will need to submerge the entire net pot in water so they will slip out easily.

Remove, trim down all necrotic, less than perfect foliage.

I dont see any pests but best to confirm with a loupe so stop the pest treatments immediately.


Myself I would move to a mix of hydroton and Dyna-rok II.

I didnt exactly pay alot of attention to your ph, but I wouldnt mess with trying to adjust it until you move back to full strength nutrient.

Hope this helps.

 

[grant123]

Are you serious he said use lava rock or did he mean hydroton rock??

Ill have to look into just does not sound right.
Holy shit I never knew anyone recommended lava rock here, suprising.

This isnt much of a diagnosis, I dont have that much time, but Ill say the following since no one else is helping you.

Since your roots are getting stained, this would be a major problem you always always want pristine white roots.

Myself I would move to tri-flex nutrient since its clear.

For now I would flush for many days then run some some dilute triflex with Rhizotonic, if after a few days of that the roots dont improve I would say do some major trimming of roots.

Remove, trim down all necrotic, less than perfect foliage.

I dont see any pests but best to confirm with a loupe so stop the pest treatments immediately.

Did you get the EXACT type of lavarock BIgToke spoke of?

Myself I would move to a mix of hydroton and Dyna-rok II.

Hope this helps. I didnt exactly pay alot of attention to your ph, but I wouldnt mess with trying to adjust it until you move back to full strength nutrient.

THANKS but im not looking for a new nutrient line, and my roots are great, GH Micro is well known to stain the roots, they arent rotten.
im thinking that with my ph at 6.1, it was a bit high...... but ive lowered it to 5.8 and not seen signs of imporvement! still praying to get some wisdom in here!

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=8182 like i said ive always used hydroton, but as per instructions in the above thread, lava rock is reccomended rather than hydroton, because it is more pourus, (cracks and crevices) for the ben. bacteria to live.

BACK to topic.... ANYONE able to help>?

 

[h&r]

Obviously your roots are not "great" and you have a nute lock, ph recovery issue...

it would seem that you should be able to find the answer in bigtokes 64 page thread from 2005..

 

[jaybutta]

Your plants look cooked (heat/oil)...I'm not sure why you applied neem & azatrol...please explain...jay

 

[mdanzig]

This is the main reason I stay away from Hydro. I never, ever have problems, when using soil, or soiless mixtures.

 

[grant123]

Your plants look cooked (heat/oil)...I'm not sure why you applied neem & azatrol...please explain...jay

i used neem foilar and azamax in the rez. They are looking slightly better this morning, but i am noticing the 'claw' effect on them somewhat more today than yesterday. (claw effect to me is a single blade fan leaf curled downards, or a multiple blade fan leaf with a single dominant giant blade.

thanks for those who gave there input and advice. Merry xmas to you all......

 

[bmwCali]

azamax in the rez? are you sure its ok? i thought it was for foliar only
and yes, the plants' problem is probably ph

 

[bali_man]

I had a friend water with neem oil once to hit the fungus gnats he had in his soil, his plants ended up looking quite similar to yours. Remember def do take a few days to correct. perhaps the neem, aza moves the ph as it breaks down. Another thing I noticed after looking through your photos, is that your dehumidifier is placed way to deep in that corner. You need at least a foot of space behind that unit for proper efficient water removal. Looks to me as though you're using the 30 Pint Zenith/LG model. The 45 and 65 pint models are energy star and have a way higher water vs KWH of energy use ratio.

Don't change any other variables. Keep the PH at around 5.8-6.1 and give them a few days to see how the new growth is.

 

[grant123]

I had a friend water with neem oil once to hit the fungus gnats he had in his soil, his plants ended up looking quite similar to yours. Remember def do take a few days to correct. perhaps the neem, aza moves the ph as it breaks down. Another thing I noticed after looking through your photos, is that your dehumidifier is placed way to deep in that corner. You need at least a foot of space behind that unit for proper efficient water removal. Looks to me as though you're using the 30 Pint Zenith/LG model. The 45 and 65 pint models are energy star and have a way higher water vs KWH of energy use ratio.

Don't change any other variables. Keep the PH at around 5.8-6.1 and give them a few days to see how the new growth is.

thanks for takin time to stop in and look em over, ph is at 5.8 today and id say they have stopped going dowhill, only time will tell.

My RH is 28-38%, so the Dehumi isnt in use as of this grow, amd your right i would most likely burn it up running it where it sits now. i have a new 2 ton mini split ac that is on its first run this time, and i believe its drying out my air to say the least.... Ill look into those Dehums, know of any good humidifiers?

updated Pics to follow...

 

[Kindman69]

I too think that they are 'cooked', been down that road myself, but I do not think that that would be the reason for the general decline your plants. But it was certainly not good for them, since they are already in a stressed out state.
Also, as someone who is just at the tail end of loosing 3 grows to 'outgassing' in sealed environment, I have to tell you, there is a lot of plastic, tape etc. in that grow space of yours. I did not notice a carbon filter in your pics either?! Did you complete a 'healthy' grow in this grow space before without exhausting? It looks also looks the clones are reverting back to veg, did you use clones that were flowering or close to flower?

 

[Xero000]

I too think that they are 'cooked', been down that road myself, but I do not think that that would be the reason for the general decline your plants. But it was certainly not good for them, since they are already in a stressed out state.
Also, as someone who is just at the tail end of loosing 3 grows to 'outgassing' in sealed environment, I have to tell you, there is a lot of plastic, tape etc. in that grow space of yours. I did not notice a carbon filter in your pics either?! Did you complete a 'healthy' grow in this grow space before without exhausting? It looks also looks the clones are reverting back to veg, did you use clones that were flowering or close to flower?

I see one :

Looks like a very professional setup! Not sure about diagnosing your stress issue, but I would add that I used to run into difficult to diagnose issues from time to time but since adding 1/2 - 1 tsp (per gallon) of Liquid Karma as part of my every day recipe I have seen ridiculous results.

It's crazy to say it's a magic bullet but I could not believe how quickly I saw positive results. I was skeptical at first but am a true believer in the wonders of humic (and fulvic) acids.

 

[Kindman69]

I see one :

Looks like a very professional setup! Not sure about diagnosing your stress issue, but I would add that I used to run into difficult to diagnose issues from time to time but since adding 1/2 - 1 tsp (per gallon) of Liquid Karma as part of my every day recipe I have seen ridiculous results.

It's crazy to say it's a magic bullet but I could not believe how quickly I saw positive results. I was skeptical at first but am a true believer in the wonders of humic (and fulvic) acids.

Cheers, my bad

 

[Kindman69]

Having seen it now, I still wonder if it is not positioned poorly. Standing on the ground would make more sense to me, maybe I'm wrong tough?!

 

[grant123]

Having seen it now, I still wonder if it is not positioned poorly. Standing on the ground would make more sense to me, maybe I'm wrong tough?!

its hanging about 4 inches from sealing, with a 6" elicient fan pulling through it.

updating album now, check for new pictures

thanks you all for the input is much appreciated, and taken into consideration! More is greatly welcomed.

And to the above poster who asked about previous grow in here, One, and although it was smaller, it was successful.
can anyone verify something that I have heard,using a propane co2 burner in a sealed room has (or can??) cause problems because the gas being burned not only creates co2 but also some other elements/chemicals that can be toxic to plants, even though they are in trace amounts. I would think this can be solved with a small passive hepa filtered intake? I dont like the idea of that though...it takes away from the 'sealed' room thing...

 

[grant123]

double post

 

[Kindman69]

its hanging about 4 inches from sealing, with a 6" elicient fan pulling through it.

updating album now, check for new pictures

thanks you all for the input is much appreciated, and taken into consideration! More is greatly welcomed.

And to the above poster who asked about previous grow in here, One, and although it was smaller, it was successful.
can anyone verify something that I have heard,using a propane co2 burner in a sealed room has (or can??) cause problems because the gas being burned not only creates co2 but also some other elements/chemicals that can be toxic to plants, even though they are in trace amounts. I would think this can be solved with a small passive hepa filtered intake? I dont like the idea of that though...it takes away from the 'sealed' room thing...

My space is rather small, and I do not vent at all, for that reason
I went with a tanked set up instead of a burner. My 20# tank lasts 4+ weeks with 1 600W HPS.
I know that burners are the way to go in larger rooms for sure, smaller rooms are more susceptible to concentration of toxins though.
I lost 3 complete grows before I started to take air quality serious, now I use a IQAir HEPA filter unit & a separate carbon filter, and for the 1st time with this cge set up I'm putting on some weight on my buds lol.
I'm not telling you that air quality is necessarily your problem, especially since you are telling me that you had a successful run in there already (mind you, that conditions may have been different). What I am telling you is, that this subject would be on the top of my list. You don't want to loose 3 grows before you take it serious.
Good luck!
Kind