1st Grow - Advice requested

[mini-mota]

Sorry mota, I don't actually use it any more so can't advise. ICmag doesn't store any IPs so I don't see much point in using it here. I check any PMs via email notification for hotlinked images, that's the only way I can think of someone is realistically going to get your ip via this site. But I understand paranoia, and I'm also no security expert so do whatever you feel safe with, and best of luck.

Thanks for the input, Scrub. As others have said in these forums, if the po-po is out to get you - they will get you regardless of your security measures. I try to keep my head as low as possible and attempt to stick to the basic safety rules:

1)Don't tell.
2)Don't sell.
3)Don't smell.
4)Don't yell.
5)Don't catch fire (this one does not rhyme with the rest but belongs nonetheless).

- mini

 

[mini-mota]

I have narrowed down the lighting options for my flowering chamber.
Below are the contenders:

220watt T5HO from HTG
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=50100

110watt 2 Foot 2 Lamp PL-55 Tek Lamp from HTG
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=51907

2 x 55 watt PL-L Bright Kit from AH Supply
http://ahsupply.com/36-55w.htm

150watt HPS w/remote ballast from HTG
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=53025

I am leaning more toward the 110watt 2 Foot 2 Lamp PL-55 Tek Lamp from HTG due to the amount of lumens per watt (listed), inclusion of bulbs, extra bulbs for a nominal fee, low heat emission, and overall cost of the kit. The interior width of my cab is about 24 and 1/16" so it may be a tight fit. Worst case scenario, I guess I could tilt it a tad up or down.

My second choice is the 150watt HPS from HTG due to lumens per watt, remote ballast (heat control), and overall cost of the unit. I will have to be more vigorous with cooling with this option (as opposed to PL-L).

I like the 2 x 55 watt PL-L Bright Kit from AH Supply but don't like the fact that it does not come with bulbs, or that they don't carry replacement bulbs in the flowering spectrum. Have to factor in the extra cost and frustration of getting flowering spectrum bulbs from a different supplier.

I like the size and coverage of the 220watt T5HO from HTG. However, I may not need the watts. Also, I'm not sure the lumens output is as high as in the cheaper PL-L or the 150watt HPS.

I plan on using either one 36watt/55watt PL-L (probably from AH Supply) or a few CFLs for mother/clone chamber.

Today, I picked up some 1/4" door/window foam tape, gorilla duct tape, and aluminum foil repair tape. Both of those duct tapes are expensive! Anyone know whether the gorilla tape or the AL tape is better for covering the holes in my cab?

I need to try out some of the 1/4" foam insulation tape to see if it's thick/wide enough to block the light at the doors. I may also go back to Lowe's/Home Depot to get some rubber insulation to stuff in the cracks at the top rear/sides of the cab before covering them with any tape.

Regards,

- mini

 

[fatigues]

I have narrowed down the lighting options for my flowering chamber.

Below are the contenders:

2 x 55 watt PL-L Bright Kit from AH Supply
http://ahsupply.com/36-55w.htm

I'd be inclined for 2 of those 2x55 watt kits. They'll fit in that space for 220 watts.

110 watts is not enough, imo.

Better still, get the reflectors and 2G11 bases from AH or Cool-lights, and the Fullham Workhorse 8 and bulbs from 1000bulbs. That will save you money. Go 3000k for flowering bulbs. They are about $3 a piece.

220w of PL-L was the amount used by Scrubninja in his last cab grow, with pretty decent results.

 

[mini-mota]

I'd be inclined for 2 of those 2x55 watt kits. They'll fit in that space for 220 watts.

110 watts is not enough, imo.

Do you think that the buds would be denser or faster growing with higher wattage? The flowering area will be about 25"H x 21"D x 24"W after I partition off the cab. It may be even smaller, depending on whether I make a separate chamber for the ballast/wiring/exhaust/etc. I know that more wattage is usually better for flowering but I'm trying to go with as few watts as necessary. Health of plants, quality of buds, security, and safety are my primary concerns.

Will 110 additional watts of PL-Ls produce significantly more heat? If so, then I guess that will change cooling and perhaps even sound from fans as well. Not to mention additional load on the same circuit. Since I have no idea how much load a circuit can take I am trying to be conservative as possible.

Better still, get the reflectors and 2G11 bases from AH or Cool-lights, and the Fullham Workhorse 8 and bulbs from 1000bulbs. That will save you money. Go 3000k for flowering bulbs. They are about $3 a piece.

AH Supply does not list prices for the individual parts on their website. I am unfamiliar with Cool-lights' website. Although I am all about saving the money, I would also like to have as few packages arriving as possible, due to security concerns. Also, since I am fairly unfamiliar with the individual parts, I'd be afraid of ordering incompatible components and not knowing whether I or the vendor screwed up. I'd like to make the process as "fool-proof" - me being the fool - as possible.

Where have you seen 55w PL-L bulbs for $3?!? I have looked on 1000bulbs site and never found anything less than $10. Again, I could be looking at the wrong items. Please link me the $3 bulbs if you can find them again. I will go back and search again now myself.

Edit: I now remember seeing the cheaper bulbs at $3.40 each, but wondered why they were so much cheaper than the name brands. Is there a substantial quality difference between the two cheaper brands and GE / Sylvania?

http://www.1000bulbs.com/3000-Kelvin-55-Watt-4-Pin-2G11-Base-Compact-Fluorescent-Light-Bulbs/

220w of PL-L was the amount used by Scrubninja in his last cab grow, with pretty decent results.

I have gone through ScrubNinja's 220w PL-L grow several times. His first cab looks to be close to the same dimensions as mine. However, I believe that he had his filtration sitting on top of the cab, which is not an option for me. Wish I could have gotten a PL-L fixture like he did, but luck is an individual thing.

Thanks for the advice and reply, fatigues ;-)

-mini

 

[ScrubNinja]

So does the filter have to be located inside the cab then? In my opinion cab space is everything. If the filter is internal and up the top, it'll be where the lights should be. If you lower it to not interfere with the lights, it'll be where the buds should be. Internal filters are a lose/lose situation in most micro.

As stated - 220w is what you want in there, it will rock the house. 110w not so much (I'm doing 110w with the new plants as of last night). One option would be to have 220w (110 on each ballast) and "flip flop" the ballasts. So, with 4 bulbs - One hour bulbs 1 and 3 come on, then for one hour bulbs 2 and 4 run, and it flips between those during lights on. It's a technique for larger growrooms but you could adapt it for micro. It's somewhat of an advanced wiring thing though, I think, but there are ways and means.

If you get the right ballasts, you can also run one bulb or two. I think fulham's don't allow this from what I read. Heat was my problem so I could remove a bulb when the weather got hot. Another option would be to use 110w of PL-L and then some dual 2ft t8 fluoros alongside, but here at least, pl-l fittings are cheaper than the same wattage of t-8 fittings.

 

[fatigues]

Edit: I now remember seeing the cheaper bulbs at $3.40 each, but wondered why they were so much cheaper than the name brands. Is there a substantial quality difference between the two cheaper brands and GE / Sylvania?

Nope. The cheap 55w PL-Ls rock just fine, thank-you-very-much. Might not last as long on overall bulb duration - but by that time, you'll want to replace em anyways. Besides at that cost? No biggie and well worth it. I bought 10+ at 4100 and 10 more at 3000 to get the price down to $2.70 or so for each color. But I'm running 440w of PL-L so... Buying 10 was as cheap as buying 8 with the price drop.

HTG has 6400k 55w veg lights at a rather reasonable price too. $15 for two. Good deal. I do think the 4100k will rock just fine - but as the 6500k bulbs are so expensive elsewhere, I thought it worth it to bring to your (or other's) attention.

Ventilation should not be a problem premised on what you have discussed for cooling, imo.

220w for the win. Denser and bigger nugs - and a lot more of em. 220w is perfect for the contemplated space, imo.

As for reflectors: Reflectors for 55w PL-L lamps are hard to find but will greatly increase the power and efficiency of your lamps. You can order them from AHsupply here (individually without the kit) or from Cool Lights here. I think the AH reflector shape is superior to Cool Lights, imo and will increase overall light by 10% or more over Cool-lights reflector's - which don't seem to be optimally shaped. But either is greatly preferable to "none".

My bet? With a Fullham 8 and Miro4 reflectors you install and wire yourself, you'll get more light than Scrub does from his fixture. So put your "wishing star" away and save it for something else

 

[mini-mota]

So does the filter have to be located inside the cab then? In my opinion cab space is everything. If the filter is internal and up the top, it'll be where the lights should be. If you lower it to not interfere with the lights, it'll be where the buds should be. Internal filters are a lose/lose situation in most micro.

I completely understand what you are saying about the negatives associated with filters that are located inside (smaller) cabs. It is possible that I can route air out the back of the cab. This setup would have to be vertical and fit between the wall and the back of the cab. It may also be possible to route a fan/filter out of the top of the cab. This setup would require more camouflage of the fan/filter. Both setups would probably require additional sound proofing, depending on noise levels.

As stated - 220w is what you want in there, it will rock the house. 110w not so much (I'm doing 110w with the new plants as of last night). One option would be to have 220w (110 on each ballast) and "flip flop" the ballasts. So, with 4 bulbs - One hour bulbs 1 and 3 come on, then for one hour bulbs 2 and 4 run, and it flips between those during lights on. It's a technique for larger growrooms but you could adapt it for micro. It's somewhat of an advanced wiring thing though, I think, but there are ways and means.

I will strive to get 220w in the flowering chamber if I go PL-L in there. Doubtful that I will try anything fancy like "flip-flopping" due to my inexperience. Best for me to keep things simple.

If you get the right ballasts, you can also run one bulb or two. I think fulham's don't allow this from what I read. Heat was my problem so I could remove a bulb when the weather got hot. Another option would be to use 110w of PL-L and then some dual 2ft t8 fluoros alongside, but here at least, pl-l fittings are cheaper than the same wattage of t-8 fittings.

I would like to stay away from any flouros that output less than PL-Ls (5K each 55w bulb). Even T5 HO non-PL-Ls only output 2k per bulb, and T5s are more efficient than T8s (right?). Also, I'd like to keep DIY wiring to a minimum to reduce the chance I configure something that's dangerous, but not immediately recognizable as such.

Thanks for the advice, Scrub ;-)

- mini

 

[mini-mota]

Nope. The cheap 55w PL-Ls rock just fine, thank-you-very-much. Might not last as long on overall bulb duration - but by that time, you'll want to replace em anyways. Besides at that cost? No biggie and well worth it. I bought 10+ at 4100 and 10 more at 3000 to get the price down to $2.70 or so for each color. But I'm running 440w of PL-L so... Buying 10 was as cheap as buying 8 with the price drop.

Seems like my best bet would be to order the 4 x 55 watt PL-L Bright Kit from AH Supply. The kit will come with the ballasts, reflectors, endcaps, etc. - everything but the bulbs. Each reflector from AHS is only 4" deep, so I can get all 4 in there with about 4"-5" to spare. Were I to go with the 2x55w PL-L from HTG- I'd only be able to fit the one unit in my flowering chamber due to the depth of my cab. However, it would be nice to be able to order all my gear from the same supplier. Were it not for the dimensions of HTG's PL-L enclosure, I'd go with 2 of them; also, the enclosure comes with bulbs and you can order replacements at the same time.

HTG has 6400k 55w veg lights at a rather reasonable price too. $15 for two. Good deal. I do think the 4100k will rock just fine - but as the 6500k bulbs are so expensive elsewhere, I thought it worth it to bring to your (or other's) attention.

I've also thought that HTG had some good prices on bulbs. Don't forget about the shipping costs though. Not sure why 1000Bulbs does not carry the 6500's.

Ventilation should not be a problem premised on what you have discussed for cooling, imo.

I'm now debating on whether to use a panasonic whisper exhaust fan or just go with pc fans blowing on the hot parts of the PL-Ls and another couple of PC fans for the exhaust + small DIY filter (like the one made with a neticup). I may go with the exhaust fan if I decide to locate the filter on top of the cab. I don't think an exhaust fan would fit between the back of the cab and the wall.

220w for the win. Denser and bigger nugs - and a lot more of em. 220w is perfect for the contemplated space, imo.

Gotcha. You and ScrubNinja have convinced me to have at least 220 watts in flower chamber if going PL-L.

As for reflectors: Reflectors for 55w PL-L lamps are hard to find but will greatly increase the power and efficiency of your lamps. You can order them from AHsupply here (individually without the kit) or from Cool Lights here. I think the AH reflector shape is superior to Cool Lights, imo and will increase overall light by 10% or more over Cool-lights reflector's - which don't seem to be optimally shaped. But either is greatly preferable to "none".

The reflectors that come with AHS 55watt Bright Kits are the good ones, right?

My bet? With a Fullham 8 and Miro4 reflectors you install and wire yourself, you'll get more light than Scrub does from his fixture. So put your "wishing star" away and save it for something else

So do you think I should just purchase the bright kits from AHS and bulbs from 1000 Bulbs and HTG? Or should I split the PL-L parts up further and only order the reflectors from AHS, and purchase the ballasts, endcaps, cords, etc. from 1000Bulbs? The 4 x 55watt Bright Kit from AHS = $129 w/out shipping charges. Don't forget that splitting the light components up and ordering from different vendors will increase the shipping charges.

Thanks for the reply and advice, fatigues ;-)

- mini

 

[fatigues]

I'm now debating on whether to use a panasonic whisper exhaust fan or just go with pc fans blowing on the hot parts of the PL-Ls and another couple of PC fans for the exhaust + small DIY filter (like the one made with a neticup).

I went with a S&P TD-100x on a fan speed controller over the Panasonic Whisper fan. The S&P is comparable in noise output (very stealthy), is cheaper, somewhat stronger when dialed up (depends on what fans you are comparing it to though, to be sure) and, above all is much easier to attach ducting to as well as a standard shaped can filter (commercial or DIY). Pulling through a filter when using a Panasonic Whisper fan requires a custom framed filter screen, etc.. Not for me, thanks.

The Panasonic fans really are bathroom fart fans and are designed as such. Their shape makes a lot of sense when designing a bathroom fan - but not for growing/scrubbing as the shape makes most of them a pain in the ass to attach a scrubber to it. S&P for me was a better choice and that's what I went with over a Panasonic.

The reflectors that come with AHS 55watt Bright Kits are the good ones, right?

Correct.

So do you think I should just purchase the bright kits from AHS and bulbs from 1000 Bulbs and HTG? Or should I split the PL-L parts up further and only order the reflectors from AHS, and purchase the ballasts, endcaps, cords, etc. from 1000Bulbs? The 4 x 55watt Bright Kit from AHS = $129 w/out shipping charges. Don't forget that splitting the light components up and ordering from different vendors will increase the shipping charges.

Shipping charges do make a lot of difference, but those charges are also very dependent upon where you live. You are in the best position to calculate shipping charges and how that rationally impacts upon your decision of where to buy.

The Fullham Workhorse 7 or 8 ballast is preferable, all other things being equal. If they are not equal, then the AH kits may be a good deal for you.

I have my PL-Ls installed vertically and due to the design, there was no need for reflectors. That impacted greatly upon where I bought my stuff from. Your considerations are different than mine and I expect your shipping charges are also different.

 

[mini-mota]

I went with a S&P TD-100x on a fan speed controller over the Panasonic Whisper fan. The S&P is comparable in noise output (very stealthy), is cheaper, somewhat stronger when dialed up (depends on what fans you are comparing it to though, to be sure) and, above all is much easier to attach ducting to as well as a standard shaped can filter (commercial or DIY). Pulling through a filter when using a Panasonic Whisper fan requires a custom framed filter screen, etc.. Not for me, thanks.

The Panasonic fans really are bathroom fart fans and are designed as such. Their shape makes a lot of sense when designing a bathroom fan - but not for growing/scrubbing as the shape makes most of them a pain in the ass to attach a scrubber to it. S&P for me was a better choice and that's what I went with over a Panasonic.

I've been thinking about the S&P TD-100X and believe that it is a better option than the Panasonic Whisper. I think I was leery of the S&P at first because there are no sones listed for it on the whitesheet. However, your firsthand experience + your valid points overcame my reluctance. Plus the S&Ps are cheaper ;-)

The Fullham Workhorse 7 or 8 ballast is preferable, all other things being equal. If they are not equal, then the AH kits may be a good deal for you.

I have my PL-Ls installed vertically and due to the design, there was no need for reflectors. That impacted greatly upon where I bought my stuff from. Your considerations are different than mine and I expect your shipping charges are also different.

I will most likely install my lights horizontally and will therefore want reflectors. The complete light kits (minus bulbs) from AHS seem to be the most economical way to go, while still getting quality reflectors. I have no idea what brand of ballast they use or how it compares to Fulham's.

Price Comparison:

$130 - 4x55watt PL-L Bright Kit (+ shipping/taxes) - includes everything but bulbs) - AHS

-or-

$80 ($40 x 2)- Fulham ballasts (before shipping/taxes) - 1000Bulbs
$64 ($16 x 4)- reflectors (before shipping/taxes) - AHS
$11 ($2.75 x 4) - 2G11 Bases (before shipping/taxes)- Cool Lights
$XX miscellaneous mounting hardware,etc.

-and-

* flowering bulbs from 1000 Bulbs @ $3.40 each + shipping/taxes
* veg bulbs from HTG @ $16.95 for 2 bulbs

===========================

On another note, I've been working hard to lightproof my cabinet. What a pain in the ass it has been. Have tried 1/4" and 3/8" foam insulation on the doors - it's still too thick in most places. I am thinking of some other options like placing thick foam, or other light blocking material a few inches from the top and bottom of each door. That way, the light still gets trapped, but the doors will still be able to close. I may also try using the black caulk + vaseline method on those doors. I ended up taping the shit out of all the seams in the cabinet with the aluminum tape after doing a light test.

I'm thinking about buying some of that material that looks like car windshield sunblockers for my cab walls. Is there a cheap way to purchase that stuff besides as car windshield blockers? I really don't want to paint the inside of my cab, but . . . it may be safer and economical than the mylar coated insulation material. Advice and opinions on this are welcome.

Thanks again for the advice, fatigues ;-)

- mini

 

[mini-mota]

I found the name of the double-sided reflective insulation that I've seen in cab pics in the forums. It is called Reflectix. Below is a link to some at Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions regarding using this stuff in small cabs. It is highly reflective and seems like it would be easy to cut/install in the cab. However, I am concerned about possible heat issues due to its insulating properties. Has anyone had heat issues using this stuff in small cabs? If not, I think it would not only help make available use of light, but would also help plug up some of the larger light leaks in my cab. Due to my cab being steel, I was also wondering if heat might dissipate better if ballasts/lights were mounted directly to the metal.

Update: I may start out the cab with a series of CFLs instead of PL-Ls due to cost, security, and local availability (bulbs, replacement ballasts, etc.) considerations. I know that the CFLs will generate quite a bit of heat. I will not remote ballast them if I go the CFL route.

Regards,

- mini