I'll never understand a dislike of coir. Peat, I can understand, but the use of coir has been a huge boon to the growing community in general, and me specifically.
mycorrhizae with organics
- Thread starter TastyFrost
- Start date
Here's my 2cents:
To me, coir is a poor choice because a coir based mix can create a perched water table. The fibers are many different lengths, quite a few under 1/8". Its hard to have a good % air porosity with coir or peat.
PWT is pretty much the level (height) of the media at which the water will 'perch', or 'stall', thus filling air porosity with water and greatly lowering the % air porosity. PWT is a concern with particles smaller then an 1/8 inch. The particles lock together and essentially prevents water from draining as it should.
A major cause of PWT is peat, coir and compost based soilless mixes. Please consider, when watering peat or coir neither drains away moisture fully, never revealing air pockets which originally existed (due to compaction and swelling of fibers). It is never 'perfectly' moist, right after watering the peat is saturated, way over 60% moisture content which means its anaerobic conditions. Peat based mixes (ex. Pro-Mix) have very little air space, same with soil (loam), coir, etc. Peat is either too moist ( > 60% moist.), moist enough (45-60% moist.), or too dry ( < 45% moist.). More often than not, peat is not 'moist enough', which means the microherd will suffer, as will the roots. Not only that, but with increased % air porosity comes increased microbial biomass (to a point). One thing is for sure, increased O2 for cannabis roots is a boon for cannabis plants (see hydroponics ).
Here is an interesting study which finds peat is superior to coir. IIRC, from my readings, it seems peat offers greater microbial activity. I for one use peat before coir:
"A Comparison of Coconut Coir and Sphagnum Peat as Soil-less Media Components for Plant Growth"
Jason Holman, B. Bugbee, and J. Chard - 2005
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_coconutcoir.htm
Ps. Here is the research library where I found that article:
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research.htm
HTH
To me, coir is a poor choice because a coir based mix can create a perched water table. The fibers are many different lengths, quite a few under 1/8". Its hard to have a good % air porosity with coir or peat.
PWT is pretty much the level (height) of the media at which the water will 'perch', or 'stall', thus filling air porosity with water and greatly lowering the % air porosity. PWT is a concern with particles smaller then an 1/8 inch. The particles lock together and essentially prevents water from draining as it should.
A major cause of PWT is peat, coir and compost based soilless mixes. Please consider, when watering peat or coir neither drains away moisture fully, never revealing air pockets which originally existed (due to compaction and swelling of fibers). It is never 'perfectly' moist, right after watering the peat is saturated, way over 60% moisture content which means its anaerobic conditions. Peat based mixes (ex. Pro-Mix) have very little air space, same with soil (loam), coir, etc. Peat is either too moist ( > 60% moist.), moist enough (45-60% moist.), or too dry ( < 45% moist.). More often than not, peat is not 'moist enough', which means the microherd will suffer, as will the roots. Not only that, but with increased % air porosity comes increased microbial biomass (to a point). One thing is for sure, increased O2 for cannabis roots is a boon for cannabis plants (see hydroponics ).
Here is an interesting study which finds peat is superior to coir. IIRC, from my readings, it seems peat offers greater microbial activity. I for one use peat before coir:
"A Comparison of Coconut Coir and Sphagnum Peat as Soil-less Media Components for Plant Growth"
Jason Holman, B. Bugbee, and J. Chard - 2005
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_coconutcoir.htm
Ps. Here is the research library where I found that article:
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research.htm
HTH
All I know is when I added coir, my plants never drowned anymore, no matter how hard I tried. They seemed happier, healthier, and more tolerant to stress. They also seemed to need less roots relative to the canopy. Why? Not 100% sure, but I have yet to have a bad experience with coir in my organic mix.
M
Mr-B
Ganga, can you give percentages of each item you named (per cubic foot or bag) above for those of us without organic background or knowledge.
I don't know where to get most of what you called for but I'm sure it's available.
I like to save all sorts of recipes for future grows. I was thinking about a organic grow in the future.
D
danimal7
I'm thinking by the time you add the P ,your plants have already received 70%-90% of the beneficial effects of the fungus ,mostly in the veg stage to get the plants bigger.
but,...I just a noob ,somebody feel free to put me in place
but,...I just a noob ,somebody feel free to put me in place
I have absolutely no comprehension of the meaning of the two previous posts. Explain....?
Q
quest
.
Q
quest
Hope my answer didn't give you a headache.
Hope my answer didn't give you a headache.
.
Hope my answer didn't give you a headache.
.
My thought is that if you have mycorrhizal infection then any addition beyond minimal P is counterproductive, either in vegetation or flowering phase.
Q
quest
.
I think we have met before on another forum, and you tore me a new one concerning fungi before realising I actually do my homework but had no access to databases as you did.
Hilarious, if it is you, you are (one of the people) instrumental in changes to my life for the better. As I'm now sitting a degree in microbiology/mycology, and get to play in the databases at will. And I love it.
I tried cover cropping alfalfa to help with perched water table but was introducing pests in the compost I was rejuvenating the pots with which were then getting in my pot plants. So I started managing between crops by removing the recycling lot of soil from the room, where there is no light, and no cover crop for herbivorous bastards to dwell...
I really must revisit/rethink this cover cropping for pots.
On cloth pots, am just now converting to cloth pots of my own design having tested two out on melon/cucumber combos and tomatoes with positive results.
I just got shade cloth, cut into a big square, folded it twice (to make four layers), threaded the edge with twine - voila! Drawstring grow bag/air pruning pot that is strong and will not rot. About 20 litres/5 gallons volume.
I want some a little bit bigger, will source a wider shade cloth to cut squares from. This roll's only about 5 1/2 feet wide.
I use EM a lot but find it is improved (for soil rejuvenation/compost acceleration) with addition of a bacillus culture. Great for cleaning ponds etc too but have to be very careful with amounts - 1:50 000 hasn't killed any fish (oxygen debt).
Now - AM fungi - in particular glomus mossaea. What I've found in all my studies is that 1. I know nothing, and 2. In the living world, every rule has an exception.
Take the elevated P killing fungi. This is established. However, TP (terra preta) soils have elevated P and elevated AM activity.
To this end I would amend your perfect soil with pine charred at low temperature, at 5% total mass.
In contemplating a soil that has the P requirements of cannabis in conjunction with mycorrhizal association and subsequent benefits I think there are three things one might do.
1. CMC Composting, as outlined here, with soft rock phosphate additives to the compost, so that microbially retained P can be optimised.
2. Char, to enhance mycorrhizal and bacterial communities (and the myriad of benefits associated with) while somehow elevating available P without compromising AM communities.
3. Innoculation of live AM propagules, as opposed to dried spores.
I also think this would be far better suited to 'tree' growing, that is, growers who grow large plants with lengthened veg cycles, as the AM has the time frame required to establish connections with host plants and plants have time to benefit, which is what we desire.
Cover cropping might be a fourth added to that list.
I'm just stoned and ranting but trying to comprehend in laymans terms a bit of an overview of the concept of AM and cannabis. I have seen photos of heavily AM infected root systems on 7 - 10 lb cannabis trees in outdoor pot culture, I like them fungi, for sure.
Hilarious, if it is you, you are (one of the people) instrumental in changes to my life for the better. As I'm now sitting a degree in microbiology/mycology, and get to play in the databases at will. And I love it.
I tried cover cropping alfalfa to help with perched water table but was introducing pests in the compost I was rejuvenating the pots with which were then getting in my pot plants. So I started managing between crops by removing the recycling lot of soil from the room, where there is no light, and no cover crop for herbivorous bastards to dwell...
I really must revisit/rethink this cover cropping for pots.
On cloth pots, am just now converting to cloth pots of my own design having tested two out on melon/cucumber combos and tomatoes with positive results.
I just got shade cloth, cut into a big square, folded it twice (to make four layers), threaded the edge with twine - voila! Drawstring grow bag/air pruning pot that is strong and will not rot. About 20 litres/5 gallons volume.
I want some a little bit bigger, will source a wider shade cloth to cut squares from. This roll's only about 5 1/2 feet wide.
I use EM a lot but find it is improved (for soil rejuvenation/compost acceleration) with addition of a bacillus culture. Great for cleaning ponds etc too but have to be very careful with amounts - 1:50 000 hasn't killed any fish (oxygen debt).
Now - AM fungi - in particular glomus mossaea. What I've found in all my studies is that 1. I know nothing, and 2. In the living world, every rule has an exception.
Take the elevated P killing fungi. This is established. However, TP (terra preta) soils have elevated P and elevated AM activity.
To this end I would amend your perfect soil with pine charred at low temperature, at 5% total mass.
In contemplating a soil that has the P requirements of cannabis in conjunction with mycorrhizal association and subsequent benefits I think there are three things one might do.
1. CMC Composting, as outlined here, with soft rock phosphate additives to the compost, so that microbially retained P can be optimised.
2. Char, to enhance mycorrhizal and bacterial communities (and the myriad of benefits associated with) while somehow elevating available P without compromising AM communities.
3. Innoculation of live AM propagules, as opposed to dried spores.
I also think this would be far better suited to 'tree' growing, that is, growers who grow large plants with lengthened veg cycles, as the AM has the time frame required to establish connections with host plants and plants have time to benefit, which is what we desire.
Cover cropping might be a fourth added to that list.
I'm just stoned and ranting but trying to comprehend in laymans terms a bit of an overview of the concept of AM and cannabis. I have seen photos of heavily AM infected root systems on 7 - 10 lb cannabis trees in outdoor pot culture, I like them fungi, for sure.
Rustylions
Member
Hi there,
I'm planning out my first organic grow for next year, tis tres exciting!
I almost feel ashamed having done hydro after thinking about the amount of waste and chemicals i would have poured down the drain.
Anyway onto mycorrhizae. I'm going to be using Subcool's supersoil method and im still unclear on how exactly to get mycorrhizae into my soil.
Does it get in after being left to cook? Or do you have to innoculate it?
Also at harvest time if i chuck that soil back into the worm farm/compost heap will it still keep its bacterial activity?
Cheers!
RL
I'm planning out my first organic grow for next year, tis tres exciting!
I almost feel ashamed having done hydro after thinking about the amount of waste and chemicals i would have poured down the drain.
Anyway onto mycorrhizae. I'm going to be using Subcool's supersoil method and im still unclear on how exactly to get mycorrhizae into my soil.
Does it get in after being left to cook? Or do you have to innoculate it?
Also at harvest time if i chuck that soil back into the worm farm/compost heap will it still keep its bacterial activity?
Cheers!
RL
