15 plant coco grow, recurring Nutrient/Magnesium deficiency problem
- Thread starter Tokesome
- Start date
CovertCrops
Member
Ah, the canna deficiency leaf
Ah, the canna deficiency leaf
Tokesome, Your plants look just like mine have been looking and from phatty blunts pictures he is having the same problem. In fact if you look at most people growing with canna nutes with tap water they all show the same signs by the end of flowering, generally starting around mid-flower.
I use Canna Aqua but I think you can use what I have discovered. Canna Aqua no longer contains any MG, i don't know how much MG is in canna coco but you will see my point. My tap water has an EC of .3 so I know I have some additional CA and some MG going in. I'd say about 20 days into flowering any MG that was stored in the plant from the Veg formula (if it has adequate MG) has been used up and the little bit of MG in the water can't keep up with demand and we start to see the "Canna MG leaf"
I tried to add cal-mag to the mix to boost my MG content, however cal-mag has N and CA in it which I really don't want. My tap water provides the extra CA. I think when we try to use cal-mag with tap water and canna we give them too much CA which can excaberate deficiencies of potassium, magnesium,manganese, and iron. Large amounts of soluble calcium applied early can also stunt growth.
I was going to buy an RO unit but after looking back through my grows I realized I didn't have this problem until I started using cal-mag with the Pure blend pro I was using at the time. I switched to Canna Aqua and have not had one single grow that didn't look like yours do. I added cal-mag to the canna aqua and things got worse. So whats different between PBP, Canna Aqua, and Canna aqua with cal-mag?
PBP has 1% CA and .5% MG.
Canna Aqua has 1.5% CA and 0% MG
Cal-mag has 3.2% CA and 1.2% MG
So Canna aqua with cal-mag is 4.7% CA and 1.2% MG
I am currently, as of today trying Canna Aqua supplemented with epsom salt at 1/4 tsp per gal and 1/2 tsp per gal ( i have 2 seperate rez's). If this fails I will buy an RO unit but I suspect this will correct the problem.
If anything is unclear hit me up and I will try to explain it better. I will be very glad when I have solved this issue. Good luck.
Ah, the canna deficiency leaf
Tokesome, Your plants look just like mine have been looking and from phatty blunts pictures he is having the same problem. In fact if you look at most people growing with canna nutes with tap water they all show the same signs by the end of flowering, generally starting around mid-flower.
I use Canna Aqua but I think you can use what I have discovered. Canna Aqua no longer contains any MG, i don't know how much MG is in canna coco but you will see my point. My tap water has an EC of .3 so I know I have some additional CA and some MG going in. I'd say about 20 days into flowering any MG that was stored in the plant from the Veg formula (if it has adequate MG) has been used up and the little bit of MG in the water can't keep up with demand and we start to see the "Canna MG leaf"
I tried to add cal-mag to the mix to boost my MG content, however cal-mag has N and CA in it which I really don't want. My tap water provides the extra CA. I think when we try to use cal-mag with tap water and canna we give them too much CA which can excaberate deficiencies of potassium, magnesium,manganese, and iron. Large amounts of soluble calcium applied early can also stunt growth.
I was going to buy an RO unit but after looking back through my grows I realized I didn't have this problem until I started using cal-mag with the Pure blend pro I was using at the time. I switched to Canna Aqua and have not had one single grow that didn't look like yours do. I added cal-mag to the canna aqua and things got worse. So whats different between PBP, Canna Aqua, and Canna aqua with cal-mag?
PBP has 1% CA and .5% MG.
Canna Aqua has 1.5% CA and 0% MG
Cal-mag has 3.2% CA and 1.2% MG
So Canna aqua with cal-mag is 4.7% CA and 1.2% MG
I am currently, as of today trying Canna Aqua supplemented with epsom salt at 1/4 tsp per gal and 1/2 tsp per gal ( i have 2 seperate rez's). If this fails I will buy an RO unit but I suspect this will correct the problem.
If anything is unclear hit me up and I will try to explain it better. I will be very glad when I have solved this issue. Good luck.
Oh no, not again. one week under sodiums and they`re showing the same signs F**K!
Oh no, not again. one week under sodiums and they`re showing the same signs F**K!
Well, its not the hydroton after all. I cant believe it. My clones were looking a little pale after being under the floro, and now 8 days of veg`n under sodiums and the same problem is reappearing. I`m going around the bend with this now.
I can only think that it must be down to the water supply. I`ve had my doubts as to whether the water could be the problem, because my house is only 200yds away from my little two plant growtent, and they`re doing fine.There was some yellowing in the plants in this 2 plant grow, and the clones were rooted up and taken from my place. These plants soon picked up and are now looking lovely 1 week into flower, nice rich green and lots of growth.
This the 2 plant grow
Can the water supply really be that different in two properties just 200 yds apart in the busy outskirts of a city. I`d put money on that not being the case in most circumstances, but I`m having to concede to this being the main suspect. I mean I`m doing the same in both grows, exactly, yet I`m having problems 8 days after potting into 3 gallon pots under 2 600w sodiums.
I used Canna proffesional coco, no mix with hydroton etc., just straight coco. I`m hand feeding until decent run off once a day at the moment, plants being small still. I started them on Ec13 ph 6, and stepped them upto Ec15 yesterday again at ph 6.
One quwstion for anyone in the know. Is it likely that if it is the water, would it be likely to show the effects so early on into the veg period. I mean if its down to a build up of salts, would it happen so quickly?
Of course having said that the clones have had his water since they were snipped from their mothers 14 days in a prop box, another couple of weeks whilst under floro, plus th 8 days under the sodiums.
This happened last grow early on and the plants seemed to respond to fluching and lower nutrients, they turned green, all be it a bit pale but stretched nore than I`d expect, given that I see them growing at friends. After a while it came back with a real vengeance and I couldn`t do anything but keep em alive with weekly flushes etc.
I cant bear to go through it again, I`ll scrap them if I cant get on top of it this time.. I yeilded around 30oz, from 1800 wts and 15 plants from the last lot, which is abismal, less than half what I should be reaping. So depressing to see it come back yet again.
I`m ordering a RO water unit tmro, 125 GPD 3 stage, for just under £100.
I`m not sure how best to treat the plants until it arrives and I get it plumbed it in. I bought 8 x 8ltr bottled mineral water today and will feed them with that tmro, but I cant do that daily, it`d be too obvious where I live.
Any thoughts, especially cheery ones, would be much appreciated.
The very down Tokesome
Oh no, not again. one week under sodiums and they`re showing the same signs F**K!
Well, its not the hydroton after all. I cant believe it. My clones were looking a little pale after being under the floro, and now 8 days of veg`n under sodiums and the same problem is reappearing. I`m going around the bend with this now.
I can only think that it must be down to the water supply. I`ve had my doubts as to whether the water could be the problem, because my house is only 200yds away from my little two plant growtent, and they`re doing fine.There was some yellowing in the plants in this 2 plant grow, and the clones were rooted up and taken from my place. These plants soon picked up and are now looking lovely 1 week into flower, nice rich green and lots of growth.
This the 2 plant grow
Can the water supply really be that different in two properties just 200 yds apart in the busy outskirts of a city. I`d put money on that not being the case in most circumstances, but I`m having to concede to this being the main suspect. I mean I`m doing the same in both grows, exactly, yet I`m having problems 8 days after potting into 3 gallon pots under 2 600w sodiums.
I used Canna proffesional coco, no mix with hydroton etc., just straight coco. I`m hand feeding until decent run off once a day at the moment, plants being small still. I started them on Ec13 ph 6, and stepped them upto Ec15 yesterday again at ph 6.
One quwstion for anyone in the know. Is it likely that if it is the water, would it be likely to show the effects so early on into the veg period. I mean if its down to a build up of salts, would it happen so quickly?
Of course having said that the clones have had his water since they were snipped from their mothers 14 days in a prop box, another couple of weeks whilst under floro, plus th 8 days under the sodiums.
This happened last grow early on and the plants seemed to respond to fluching and lower nutrients, they turned green, all be it a bit pale but stretched nore than I`d expect, given that I see them growing at friends. After a while it came back with a real vengeance and I couldn`t do anything but keep em alive with weekly flushes etc.
I cant bear to go through it again, I`ll scrap them if I cant get on top of it this time.. I yeilded around 30oz, from 1800 wts and 15 plants from the last lot, which is abismal, less than half what I should be reaping. So depressing to see it come back yet again.
I`m ordering a RO water unit tmro, 125 GPD 3 stage, for just under £100.
I`m not sure how best to treat the plants until it arrives and I get it plumbed it in. I bought 8 x 8ltr bottled mineral water today and will feed them with that tmro, but I cant do that daily, it`d be too obvious where I live.
Any thoughts, especially cheery ones, would be much appreciated.
The very down Tokesome
I`m not sure if it would be salt build up from the tap water, maybe more likely to be too much calcium (in a form that the plants cant uptake, I thought?). So to rephrase the question, could this cause a lockout so early on in veg?
I`m at a total loss as to what it can be otherwise. I know the future of these plants if I dont do something seriously to resolve the issue, as this is my 4th time with this strain and the same problem has worsened each time, yet all is fine with my 2 plants around the corner from where I live and my friends who live nearby have no such issues.
I feel like I`m freakin cursed, maybe I`ll try voodoo. . . . . and I dont mean Voodoo juice!
Tokesome
I`m at a total loss as to what it can be otherwise. I know the future of these plants if I dont do something seriously to resolve the issue, as this is my 4th time with this strain and the same problem has worsened each time, yet all is fine with my 2 plants around the corner from where I live and my friends who live nearby have no such issues.
I feel like I`m freakin cursed, maybe I`ll try voodoo. . . . . and I dont mean Voodoo juice!
Tokesome
Looks like overwatering somewhat to me? 4x45mins on open lines sounds pretty wet!
Letting it dry out too much will put your nute levels thru the roof too tho.
I'd replant one in soil for a control plant, its easy & might help ID the prob? I'd bet the farm its coco specific.
I gave up on coco mix last year & now call this the coco curse
was the first time I couldn't totally bring a plant back around from whatever ailment. My ego is still bruised lol
I'm sure it isn't what you want to hear, but I've been one happy camper since kickin that crap to the curb! Good soil + extra EWC & Perlite on drips = Kaboom!
Good luck
P.S. Edit: This thread from Head Seeds... http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=55683&highlight=coco
A bit long, but best coco thread I've come across by far, learned more from that than all others combined.
Good read & a couple real gems for coco grows/problems. Check it out.
Letting it dry out too much will put your nute levels thru the roof too tho.
I'd replant one in soil for a control plant, its easy & might help ID the prob? I'd bet the farm its coco specific.
I gave up on coco mix last year & now call this the coco curse
was the first time I couldn't totally bring a plant back around from whatever ailment. My ego is still bruised lolI'm sure it isn't what you want to hear, but I've been one happy camper since kickin that crap to the curb!
Good soil + extra EWC & Perlite on drips = Kaboom!Good luck
P.S. Edit: This thread from Head Seeds... http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=55683&highlight=coco
A bit long, but best coco thread I've come across by far, learned more from that than all others combined.
Good read & a couple real gems for coco grows/problems. Check it out.
E
EvilTwin
Ho Tokesome,
So it's starting again already on your new grow? I've been following but really didn't have anything new to add. I didn't quite follow the logic of the hydroton as the culprit.
I'm really quite curious as to how you prepared your coco this time. Did you give it a thorough flush and did you pre-load it with a nutrient soak. When I recommended that during your last grow, you seemed unconvinced. Just wondering of you finally decided to prep your coco correctly...
ET
So it's starting again already on your new grow? I've been following but really didn't have anything new to add. I didn't quite follow the logic of the hydroton as the culprit.
I'm really quite curious as to how you prepared your coco this time. Did you give it a thorough flush and did you pre-load it with a nutrient soak. When I recommended that during your last grow, you seemed unconvinced. Just wondering of you finally decided to prep your coco correctly...
ET
Hi ET, thanks for checking in. Yeah they showed signs early on last time if you remember, then picked up, albeit very stretchy and thin limbed and a bit on the limey side of green, then it returned.
I used canna professional this time which is already buffered and has cal and mg pre added. I then stood the water for 24hrs and then mixed nutes up, including rhizotonic for root stimulation. I then pre saoked the medium with this nute mix before planting up the clones from well rooted small cups.
I feed once a day until run off, but have missed the odd day when I felt the pots were still quite hefty still.
I have 2 going around the corner which I`ve treated exactly the same and they`re fine, hence suspecting the water, but could the water be having an effect so soon? These two were showing signs of yellowing and looked pretty crap, but once I`d potted them up and put them under a 400w sodium they improved and now look great. I`m doing things exactly the same mate, its totally stumping me.
I originally potted 12 up, but then 3 or 4 days later I decided I could fit another 2 in so potted another two up. These two are not showing these signs yet, but I`d bet big money that they will within a day or so.
Also 12 plants went to 2 different locations where the plants are doing fine, again the same methods are being employed and I`ve been checking in on them, all is cool there.
I can only think water, although I find it strange bearing in mind the close proximity of the other 2 that I have going. Is it possible that another environment issue is here. I cant think of one. My kit is thoroughly scrubbed, sterilised and rinsed a couple of days prior to use. My room, ie temps air circulation are both good.
Toke
So all plants are the same age, but those potted up first (12) are bigger and more advanced but showing these signs. Does this shed any light on the problem? It feels like it should, but I cant see it.
I`ve ordered the RO water filter, I hope this helps, at least I`ll have an abundance (125 gallons a day) of good drinking water.
I`m going to feed with bottled water today or maybe half and half to make the 40ltrs I have go further. It should also be enough to water down the ec of the water going to the plants.
Wish me luck guys, and any other ideas welcome.
I used canna professional this time which is already buffered and has cal and mg pre added. I then stood the water for 24hrs and then mixed nutes up, including rhizotonic for root stimulation. I then pre saoked the medium with this nute mix before planting up the clones from well rooted small cups.
I feed once a day until run off, but have missed the odd day when I felt the pots were still quite hefty still.
I have 2 going around the corner which I`ve treated exactly the same and they`re fine, hence suspecting the water, but could the water be having an effect so soon? These two were showing signs of yellowing and looked pretty crap, but once I`d potted them up and put them under a 400w sodium they improved and now look great. I`m doing things exactly the same mate, its totally stumping me.
I originally potted 12 up, but then 3 or 4 days later I decided I could fit another 2 in so potted another two up. These two are not showing these signs yet, but I`d bet big money that they will within a day or so.
Also 12 plants went to 2 different locations where the plants are doing fine, again the same methods are being employed and I`ve been checking in on them, all is cool there.
I can only think water, although I find it strange bearing in mind the close proximity of the other 2 that I have going. Is it possible that another environment issue is here. I cant think of one. My kit is thoroughly scrubbed, sterilised and rinsed a couple of days prior to use. My room, ie temps air circulation are both good.
Toke
So all plants are the same age, but those potted up first (12) are bigger and more advanced but showing these signs. Does this shed any light on the problem? It feels like it should, but I cant see it.
I`ve ordered the RO water filter, I hope this helps, at least I`ll have an abundance (125 gallons a day) of good drinking water.
I`m going to feed with bottled water today or maybe half and half to make the 40ltrs I have go further. It should also be enough to water down the ec of the water going to the plants.
Wish me luck guys, and any other ideas welcome.
E
EvilTwin
T,
Glad you got a different coco this time. Small changes will eventually lead you to the reason for this. If you decide to supplement Mg, use Epsom salts rather then CalMag. You used Calmag last grow, right? That will keep the Ca situation as simple as possible by not adding more.
You keep mentioning the sister grow...but the one thing that those grows has that's different is a different grower. You both can't be doing everything identically.
Hoping for the best...
ET
Glad you got a different coco this time. Small changes will eventually lead you to the reason for this. If you decide to supplement Mg, use Epsom salts rather then CalMag. You used Calmag last grow, right? That will keep the Ca situation as simple as possible by not adding more.
You keep mentioning the sister grow...but the one thing that those grows has that's different is a different grower. You both can't be doing everything identically.
Hoping for the best...
ET
Hey ET, the two plant grow 200yds away is by the same gardener, me. I promise mate as far as I see I`ve done things identically.
I didn`tuse calmag last graw, I used epsom salts. I bought some calmax, but decided against using it.
I have to assume water.
I missed the post above by Covertcrop, I`m hammered now but will respond next time I`m here, thanks for dropping in mate.
Toke
I didn`tuse calmag last graw, I used epsom salts. I bought some calmax, but decided against using it.
I have to assume water.
I missed the post above by Covertcrop, I`m hammered now but will respond next time I`m here, thanks for dropping in mate.
Toke
E
EvilTwin
T,
My mistake. I thought that was your buddy that you got the clones from. Made an assumption. Hope things are different this run.
ET
My mistake. I thought that was your buddy that you got the clones from. Made an assumption. Hope things are different this run.
ET
greenatik
Member
looks like a classic magnesium def. have you tried supplementing it? I got tired of the balancing act trying to get everything perfect to keep them happy so I supplement mg. never have deficiencies or sad plants... but now that you got a r/o system you HAVE to supplement mg. no way of getting around it
gl...
*edit*
sorry didn't read through all 13 pages kinda just skimmed thru.. one question, the problematic water you are using isn't softened right?
gl...
*edit*
sorry didn't read through all 13 pages kinda just skimmed thru.. one question, the problematic water you are using isn't softened right?
No worries mate, no its not softened.
Yesterday I made up a solution of bottled mineral water, EC1 and PH6.4, 40 ltrs to Ec15 and ph went to 5.9 after adding nutes. I decided not to feed the plants as all the pots were still holding plenty of moisture. Today I was going to feed but noticed only 2 pots really needed a feed so left the others another day, and will feed them tmro. I`ve decided to feed 2/3rds of the plants with the mineral water and carry on feedeing the other 3rd with my usual tap water mix, and see if I can notice any improvement or difference.
Funny the ph had risen overnight in the res without being used or recirculated from 5.9 to 6.3. I added 1ml of ph down to the 40ltrs and it sent the ph plummeting to 4.7!! Totally different reaction to when I add the same amount to my tap water, it wouldn`t usually reduce it by that degree.
So I added 10 ltrs of tap water to the mineral water to bring the ph back upto 6.1. Now the res has 80%/20% mineral/tap water. I`ll feed tmro and see how that goes.
Toke
No worries ET, its hard to keep up with everything in someone else`s grow over a period of months. I appreciate your efforts and thoughts as always.
The roots appear to be growing well, little roots are widespread and showing in the holes at the bottom of the pots, the leaves however are getting noticeably worse by the day and the two plants that were potted up later are now showing the same signs as I suspected they would.
I`m not sure whether to use straight RO water and add the necessary supplements such as cal and mg, once my filter system arrives or whether to mix it 50/50 with my tap water? Any suggestions here guys. I think the water is going to be the last ditch attempt with these Cheese plants.
Still hammered, Toke
This thread needs to continue until one of us gets this figured. All of the attached pics are of Lemon Kush plants (clones from the same mother) The first pic is a plant in a pot of straight coco, all the rest are in wire mesh pots. The first pic of the yellowing plant is hand watered from the top. All the rest are flood and drain by hand in a bucket. I have fought this same problem since I started using coco. Right now I have several sisters to these plants in 1 gallon grow bags. All of these plants are on the same feed/water sechedule. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE is the containers. Pots and grow bags seem to stay to wet unless the plant is big enough for the container to make it cycle. I have them on gravel to help drainage but does little. Since I started using the homemade wire mesh pots, all I know is my plants have did a 180. It is my belief that since all other is the same it has to be due to the fact that the wire mesh pots will not stay soggy. They root prune very well. I know it sounds like bullshit but I am telling you, I fought that same looking leafs fore ever and was about to bail on coco. I dont let the mesh pots dry out but they cycle very well. Unlike the pots or grow bags that never seem to dry out unless the plants are almost to big for the container. I would be nice if this thread continued because I know alot of folks are having these same issues. t
Some random info:
I wash the compressed coco until ppm in = ppm out.
Finial flush with ph 5.8 with 5 mills/pr gal calmag.
City water is 70 ppm
H&G nutes. Not as hot as they say. 500 ppm @ start 12/12 and up from there.
Some random info:
I wash the compressed coco until ppm in = ppm out.
Finial flush with ph 5.8 with 5 mills/pr gal calmag.
City water is 70 ppm
H&G nutes. Not as hot as they say. 500 ppm @ start 12/12 and up from there.
Attachments
jocat
Active member
re
re
hey tip, didn't know you were hangin in these parts...i think you should give a little stronger feeding...like 8-1000 ppms cause it looks like those plants could take it...maybe it's just those lemon kush plants...i have seen some strains that don't like the coco..i use bio biz bagged coco and run it once and then feed it to the worms in my worm farm...maybe but i dunno
re
hey tip, didn't know you were hangin in these parts...i think you should give a little stronger feeding...like 8-1000 ppms cause it looks like those plants could take it...maybe it's just those lemon kush plants...i have seen some strains that don't like the coco..i use bio biz bagged coco and run it once and then feed it to the worms in my worm farm...maybe but i dunno
That`s really interesting stuff there mate. I`ve just been pondering the wetness of my pots. I`ve fed another 5 today making a total of 7 of the 14 plants. The remaining still seem quite heavy and this is after 3 days with no feeding.
There is a massive difference between the weight of the freshly watered pots to the ones that haven`t been fed, but the ones that haven`t still contain a lot of moisture. The roots appear to be doing well, but they`re not rooted enough to pull from there pots for a full inspection yet. I want to build the frame for the sgrog sometime this week and wont be able to pull them after the screen is attached to it.
Could I still be over watering?? Would it have this affect on my plants?? I though the idea was to feed till run off, but my pots never go below quite damp, and that`s just going 2-3 inches in from the top of the pot, s I`d assume the bottom of the pots are going to be quite wet.
I was watering until decent run off once a day, missing the occasional day when I thought them to be too wet.
I`ve never heard of wire mesh pots before, I`m now wondering if I can make some for mine by forming wire mesh around the pots and then transferring them. I`d have thought you`d be able to feed more often that way, a bit more hydroponically.
It still confounds me that the 2 I have growing elsewhere are apparently doing fine, they`re a few weeks ahed being in week 2 of flower, other than perhaps feeding. A couple of times they were allowed to dry out almost completely over 3 day periods by accident, once due to a faulty timer and once due to a faulty me!
I`ve always believed in keeping the medium at least damp.
My intention was to put wicks into the bottom of each pot and raise the pots from the trays, but this problem has been distracting me.
So do I try and make wire mesh pots, or fit wicks to the bottoms of each pot for added drainage (a bit worried about algae and disease with this one though?), or drill lots of holes around the sides of my existing pots, or simply try letting them dry out a lot more between feeds, maybe feeding them once every 2-3 days instead of daily (worried about strength of nutes building up and ph fluctuations if going wet/dry/wet/dry ets??)
Toke
Hi all. No, I am saying the plants in wire mesh pots just seem to do better all the way around. The pic is from a LA Cross from seed. That plant is 13 weeks old from seed and 3rd week in 12/12, so it has been in that .93 gallon mesh pot for around 10.5 weeks. In any other container it would have been root bound terribly. I dont believe it will do well to finish but it is a test plant so we will see what happens. I only have one size mesh pots right now. They measure 6x6x6 and cost .93 each to make in materials. I had considered going to smart pots but refuse to pay the price for a one time use and I dont believe they would drain any better than any other type pot. I really believe that to wet of coco down low is what is causing many of us to have yellowing problems. I think it fucks with the nute uptake?
A few grows back I grew 16, 24" plants under 2-1000 hps on a flat grow. The plants were in 1 gal plastic grow bags set on a table of gravel. When they finally got cooking they would completly lighten the bags every two day and cycled nicely. I dont know...
What I am for sure of is that ALL my plants in wire mesh pots, various strains, do WAY far better than all the rest of them in any other type pot. I am far from a pro grower by any means and have no pro type explaination. I know what works though. t
A few grows back I grew 16, 24" plants under 2-1000 hps on a flat grow. The plants were in 1 gal plastic grow bags set on a table of gravel. When they finally got cooking they would completly lighten the bags every two day and cycled nicely. I dont know...
What I am for sure of is that ALL my plants in wire mesh pots, various strains, do WAY far better than all the rest of them in any other type pot. I am far from a pro grower by any means and have no pro type explaination. I know what works though. t
Attachments
