HELP!! Can't get any definitive answers!!

[dakin3d]

Growing in soil for a few weeks under 24/0, recently switched to 20/4, under 400W Hortilux Ace conversion. I have limited new air, but constant air flow from two fans. I am using Happy Frog soil from Fox Farm, emailed them recently, but never heard back regarding a standardized ratio of macronutrients. Fed a couple of times w/ un-pH'd nutes (botanicare Pro Grow at 50 and 100%). Uncovered that ph was around 4.5. I have since flushed twice over the past five days. Did NOT pH runoff at the time (ignorance). Unknown strains from quality bags. Thought part of this problem was due to needing to transplant from beer cups, but even after transplanting into 3 gals, they continue to exhibit this 'sickness'. I have no CO2, yet, but will be implementing 50lb bottle w/ timed regulator this weekend. Temps range from 65-80 depending on day, typically 68-78. RH is high, but also varies from 45-70%, typically 55-64%. Water beer cups everyday to every other day depending on specific plant. Water 3 gals every 3-5 days depending. It's not overwatering, as I ensure that the containers are dry and light before watering...sometimes maybe too dry. Water pH ranges from 6.5-6.8, which from what I understand is near ideal. I have had to spray w/ a pest killer, however, the mealy bugs were sparse and dead w/in a day of spraying. Have sprayed a few times since for preventative measures, never under the light. If you can give me your feedback, it would be much appreciated! Thank you...

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi Dakin,
Growing is a complicated deal and a difinitive answer isn't always available. I understand your frustration though.

I can point out a few things that I wouldn't have done.

First...going from beer cups to a 3 gallon pot is a dramatic up-potting. It's better to go through a few stages of growth to get up to that size. What happens is that the small plant can't use up the water fast enough and overwatering symptoms can occur.

Also the soil you used is very rich and I think supplemental feeding was not necessary and possibly damaging. Could be a nutrient burn issue.

That's all at the moment but I'll post ya if anything else comes to mind.
ET

 

[dakin3d]

Hi Dakin,
Growing is a complicated deal and a difinitive answer isn't always available. I understand your frustration though.

I can point out a few things that I wouldn't have done.

First...going from beer cups to a 3 gallon pot is a dramatic up-potting. It's better to go through a few stages of growth to get up to that size. What happens is that the small plant can't use up the water fast enough and overwatering symptoms can occur.

Also the soil you used is very rich and I think supplemental feeding was not necessary and possibly damaging. Could be a nutrient burn issue.

That's all at the moment but I'll post ya if anything else comes to mind.
ET

Good to know... I guess this obviously makes sense, but I sure didn't think of it... Sometimes... Anyway, thanks for the input bro (i assume??:/), much appreciated.

 

[mexilandrace]

test the ph of your runoff

 

[dakin3d]

Hmmm...

Hmmm...

test the ph of your runoff

I appreciate your suggestion, bro, but actually testing the pH of the runoff doesn't really tell you anything. The reason for this is that not only does the runoff contain all of the impurities, or shit, in the soil, but it also contains whatever nutrients or water you just added in order to obtain the 'runoff'. If you understand how pH/organic chem/ionization works, then you also know that pH isn't on a 'progressive' scale. So, it would be highly inaccurate to attempt to guess that your pH in your soil was 5.5, if you added water at 7.0 and the runoff was say, 6.2. It just doesn't work that way. If the runoff was 6.2, the soil pH could be almost anything lower than that number. I have no idea what I'm doing with regard to the botany aspect of growing, or horticulture in general, but I do have two degrees in Molecular and Microbio. Thanks anyway.

 

[EvilTwin]

dakin,
All due respect...but you came here asking for help. Flaunting your degrees and dismissing advice doesn't endear you.

True, if it reads normal, there's no useful information to be had.

But let's just say that you water with ph 7 water and get runoff that reads ph 3. It may be wildly inaccurate...but it's valuable information. It tells you that your rootzone is too acidic.
ET

 

[dakin3d]

dakin,
All due respect...but you came here asking for help. Flaunting your degrees and dismissing advice doesn't endear you.

True, if it reads normal, there's no useful information to be had.

But let's just say that you water with ph 7 water and get runoff that reads ph 3. It may be wildly inaccurate...but it's valuable information. It tells you that your rootzone is too acidic.
ET

Your right, I apologize, but I'm hardly flaunting anything. Just qualifying that I understand how pH works. I still shouldn't have dismissed this fact. I tested the runoff: 6.4. Just a theory, but if my pH were 'wildly inaccurate', say '3', wouldn't my plants be dead, or no?...

 

[EvilTwin]

dakin...
Well I used 3 to make the point that indeed, testing runoff has some value. Yes, if your runoff were 3 your plants would probably be dead...but there's lots of gray areas in between.

In my mind...excessive nutrients is the most likely cause of the problems. Just keep giving them phed water for awhile and see if the new growth is looking better. Old growth won't necessarily repair so watch new growth for improvement.

My reasoning on the nute issue is the feeding on top of rich soil and that the problems started on the tips of the leaves. I've been growing for awhile but I'm not an expert by any means.
ET

 

[MeTa4]

Looks like nute burn, you should read up on organics for beginners.

 

[dakin3d]

Thank you, ET

Thank you, ET

dakin...
Well I used 3 to make the point that indeed, testing runoff has some value. Yes, if your runoff were 3 your plants would probably be dead...but there's lots of gray areas in between.

In my mind...excessive nutrients is the most likely cause of the problems. Just keep giving them phed water for awhile and see if the new growth is looking better. Old growth won't necessarily repair so watch new growth for improvement.

My reasoning on the nute issue is the feeding on top of rich soil and that the problems started on the tips of the leaves. I've been growing for awhile but I'm not an expert by any means.
ET

I understand, and I appreciate your patience. I'm not here to offend anyone, or flaunt anything. I obviously have much to learn, so I apologize if I did offend anyone.

I will take your word for it. I have attempted contact again w/ FF to get a more detailed nutrient breakdown for Happy Frog, but to no avail. It's really the only thing that makes sense, unless I have lockout from adding a low ph solution to my soil leading to various types of deficiencies. But I am not an expert either, so I will follow your advice and give water for now. Let me ask you this, if you don't mind... Are you aware if you can pH w/ acetic acid (vinegar) and sodium bicarbonate solution for increase/decrease in pH, or do these leave unwanted byproducts?

 

[dakin3d]

Looks like nute burn, you should read up on organics for beginners.

Do you have a good reference link or a specific book title? I appreciate it...

 

[BurmeseDragon]

I heard if you kill yourself you find all the answers! Some of us just suck at growing weed like woman growing babies!

 

[EvilTwin]

Dakin,
Hey, No sweat. I didn't mean to jump on you. Your post just struck me the wrong way.

On the ph down. No on the bicarb. Sodium messes with plant growth in a variety of ways. Vinegar works though I've never used it. In hydro systems I've heard it doesn't last very long. I make my own sulfuric acid ph down and most commercial ones are primarily phosphoric acid.

Far as info on organic growing...I'd start by going over to the organic section here and look through some of the stickies...(posts moved to the top because of their usefulness).
Cheers,
ET

 

[EvilTwin]

Dakin,
I was thinking about your problem and went under advanced search. There are 4 different threads on Happy Frog soil.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/search.php?searchid=8523608

One opinion was that it's too dense and needs an addition of 20% coarse perlite to drain properly. Anyway...try reading some of those and you may get some clues.
ET

 

[dakin3d]

Dakin,
I was thinking about your problem and went under advanced search. There are 4 different threads on Happy Frog soil.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/search.php?searchid=8523608

One opinion was that it's too dense and needs an addition of 20% coarse perlite to drain properly. Anyway...try reading some of those and you may get some clues.
ET

ET, can't say how much I appreciate the help and good recommendations. I've spent hours and hours searching for this answer, on numerous blogs, talking to friends, and no one could agree on anything. As you stated earlier, I know how difficult it is to find a 'definitive' solution, but I hate not having an answer. After all that I have done, I have been assuming that my soil, b/c FF is reputable, was absolutely not the issue. FF neglects to correspond, however, after finding out how 'hot' this soil is, it explains a lot! On top of fact that many individuals find that the ph of the soil is well below recomm, such as 4-5.5. FF claims ph 7. Ive used my entire bags so I couldnt test the actual, but I am headed to the hydro shop tomm to get a sample. It was staring me in the face the entire time. Learned lesson... just use promix, perlite, vermic, and nutrients, and be done with it! Soiless can save so much trouble when growing in a soil medium, as opposed to actual 'soil'. Thanks again, bro, much appreciated! I anticipate the problem was both irregular pH throughout the medium, causing nutrient lockout and then deficiency in some mac/mic molecules, as well as nute burn after transplanting, as that's when soil was nute rich. +rep Btw, you in hydro right now, or soil? If hydro, you in Aero?

 

[hazy]

ET's advice is always good.
So was the guy's advice who suggested you check the runoff pH. The soils will usually end up being more acidic than the nutes you add because of accumulation/concentration. If you water to saturation and a little runoff, wait an hour+ then add just enough water to get a little runoff. Raise the pot, you don't want to lean the pot over to collect this, unless the pot is too big to handle. The reason for the wait is to get a more accurate reading because of the things you pointed out concerning runoff.

Anyway, you said you were using nutes at 4.5. There's the cause of your troubles. I believe that pH is logarithmic and 4.5 is 100 times more acidic than 6.5 so that's bad. Low pH is almost the only way that you can get cal-mag deficiencies, which you clearly have. Also some top growth looks a little over manganesed, also from low pH.
Since you already flushed, I think you just have to wait till it outgrows the problem.

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi Dakin,
I'd say you've got a handle on things now. Before using a new soil...check ph by taking a handful of soil, add an equiv. amount of water and shake up. Then check ph of water after the soil settles. That's a rough guide to the way the pros do it. And the addition of perlite is the usual way of getting proper drainage.

I've been trying to transition to hydro only. Ebb & Flow has been my preferred method. Am currently doing a 50/50 soil/soilless run but I'm all set up for a top drip hydroton system after that. I'm an old timer. Grew very unscientifically for years and am trying to bring my operation up todays standards... (slow going)
Best of luck...
ET

PS: Thanks for the support Hazy, I try...but this is a place for group effort...nobody has all the answers.

 

[VenturaHwy]

I have had to spray w/ a pest killer, however, the mealy bugs were sparse and dead w/in a day of spraying. Have sprayed a few times since for preventative measures, never under the light. If you can give me your feedback, it would be much appreciated! Thank you...

Spraying can always cause burn problems if you are wetting the leaves. Which is why foggers are best.

Look at the new growth, that's what is happening now. Not only check the ph but also the ec of the runoff... The pictures were blurry.

 

[HUGE]

Im havin similar prob with 3 plants in ocean Forrest. Hevnt fed anything and they are burnt just like that. What should I blend in to cool the soil down? Just perlite?

 

[dakin3d]

Hi Dakin,
I'd say you've got a handle on things now. Before using a new soil...check ph by taking a handful of soil, add an equiv. amount of water and shake up. Then check ph of water after the soil settles. That's a rough guide to the way the pros do it. And the addition of perlite is the usual way of getting proper drainage.

I've been trying to transition to hydro only. Ebb & Flow has been my preferred method. Am currently doing a 50/50 soil/soilless run but I'm all set up for a top drip hydroton system after that. I'm an old timer. Grew very unscientifically for years and am trying to bring my operation up todays standards... (slow going)
Best of luck...
ET

PS: Thanks for the support Hazy, I try...but this is a place for group effort...nobody has all the answers.

Hey ET,

Thanks for the tip, haven't heard that way to test the soil before, but sounds good to me! If I may ask, what type of soil mixture do you use? What kind of nutes for soil?

This is my first grow and I've already realized that I'm interested in trying hydro. What other methods have you tried besides E/F? Any aero, or NFT? Are you using hydroton in your E/F system, as well? What kind of buckets you have for your drip set up? Do you happen to use 'quick connects'? Ive been attempting to assemble a watering bucket using quick connects, but have had some difficulties w/ leaking around the valve. As always, thanks for the input. Thanks in advance and look fwd to hearing from you.