first time cfl scrogg, lots of questions

[JackStraw21]

Been lurking for a while, but only recently have I been put in a situation where growing, on a micro scale, is feasible. I've read more threads and stickies than imaginable, and I think I've collected a large amount of extremely helpful information. Gotta thank you guys for taking the time to post this stuff, it makes for an incredible resource.

From what I've gathered, it seems most of the growers here continuously upgrade and change their cabs, often drastically. This is especially true for first time growers (like I'll soon be). Seeing as this is more less true for everyone, and also that I want to be as economical as possible, I figure for my first grow it is more important to focus on developing/improving growing skills and abilities before I invest lots of money into a cab. Ideally, the best money saving route would be to just get it right the first time, but that rarely seems to happen, and what is "right" anyway?

Led by the reasoning above, I think the best route is to build a very simple cab and get a few harvests under my belt before any upgrading or making a completely new one. I want to remain stealth, so I intend to salvage a nightstand or something of the sort that I can find at a yard sale for cheap. Rough dimensions are 16 inches (width), 30 inches (height), and 12 inches (depth). As of now I am thinking on going with 168 watts of cfl lighting (4x42watt) inside some sort of home made reflector/enclosure (I want to upgrade to P-LLs in the future).

For passive intake I am thinking I'll use scrubninja's light trap or something of a similar design. As far as fans go, I'm a little lost in all the numbers and ratings. I've read scrubninja's guide on pc fans, but I'm still a little lost on the sizes I need. I want to mount them at the top of the cab behind my cfl's so the air the pull out will run over the bulbs. Possibly this will require some way of routing the air, but hopefully it can be done just by positioning the fans correctly. Due to a somewhat high wattage for the amount of space I plan to use, I figure I might need multiple fans to ensure they are running at a low enough wattage to still be stealth right? Any suggestions on sizes, CFMs ect.?

I want to grow two plants in the cab. Soil seems like an obvious choice because I don't have any experience and hydro might prove to be beyond what I can process at the moment. The size of the pots I should use I am not really sure of. I think I'll make the myself to maximize potential space. As far as soil goes, I've debated a lot of things. I think I'm going to end up going with my buddies homemade compost (hes a gardener and says its great stuff), vermiculite, and perlite. Suggestions on ratios of these? I'm thinking 60% composted soil, 20% vermiculite, 20% perlite. Sound alright?

For fertilizers, its a toss up. I love the idea of using organic teas ect., but I am not sure if this is beyond me right now? I'd like to think I learn pretty quickly and could adapt well, even if it was a little tough at first, but at the same time I'd rather not kill my first crop. Should I just go with commercial ferts such as the Fox Farms line?

Lastly, I want to SCROG the two plants. It seems like in micro grows this is an excellent way to maximize yields. I feel like I really understand the concepts and could execute a successful SCROG. Any recommendations on how high my screen should be? I assume that is somewhat dependent on genetics, seeing as individual growth characteristics could effect this quite a bit, but I haven't decided on strain yet either. I plan to order the seeds. Thoughts on strain?

I've included a rough sketch of what I intend to do. Unfortunately Google's SketchUp has confused me entirely, so I resorted to Paint.

I'm sorry about the mass of questions I've asked. Feel free to skip any if you think a little more work on my end would produce the results. I in no way intend to just leech information if it is readily available.

Thanks in advance,
Jack Straw

 

[monoclepop]

Gidday - sounds a lot like my experience. I registered here years ago, have read thousands of threads here I reckon. I'm 3 weeks into flower of some awful bag-seed, and have some interesting looking Mandala seeds that just broke soil. Some of us just take a while to get started, lol.

My cab is a bit bigger than yours, and I have 6x20W bulbs. I have two 120mm fans on 12v sucking out of the cab into a homemade scrubber. Temps sweet as, and if I ran it without the scrubber could probably have got away with only one+120mm.+
+
I+am+still+finding+my+way+with+nutes+-+struggled+with+lockout;+less+feeding+is+definitely+more!+Don't+forget+a+dash+of+dolomite+lime,+and+wait+for+the+plants+to+get+hungry+before+pouring+any+ferts+on+them.
+
I+can't+recommend+starting+a+grow+enough+-+heaps+of+stuff+just+makes+way+more+sense+when+you+see+it.+I+over+ferted,+I+vegged+a+week+longer+than+I+should,+I+didn't+top+or+train+the+plants+early+enough.+Things+I+only+seem+to+properly+learn+after+fucking+up!

 

[JackStraw21]

Monoclepop, thanks so much for the reply. You said your cab is a little bigger, yet you run 48 watts less than I plan to. Think I'm being a little to ambitious with that? Maybe I'll install the four sockets but switch out two of the bulbs for lower wattages if temps get too high.

I realize I completely forgot to include a scrubber. For stealth purposes I' prefer if it was internal, but that might be kinda hard since its a small cab to begin with. Also that would screw up my idea of having the fans suck air out over the bulbs, cause the fans would have to be hooked up to some sort of ducting and connected to the scrubber.

 

[grouchy]

50-100 watts per sq ft is plenty of light. Your planning on 1.33 sq ft so 3 42w bulbs would be plenty at 95 watts per sq ft. Four bulbs would give you 126 watts per sq ft and would make it more difficult to keep cool. If you find out after a couple grows that you need more light because you have maximized your original design than it would be easy to add another 42w or you could revamp it with the pl-ls you were wanting.

If you have the room to make it work, a curved or "half pipe" screen would give you more surface area and making two screens (one attached to each pot) would make tending the garden easier since you would be able to remove them from the cab.

If you wanted to separate the ballasts from the bulbs you could run the 42w bulbs inline inside of a cool tube and duct the air out through a carbon filter. You would then have the freedom to mount the ballasts wherever they fit the best out of the way. Here is a link on how to make remote ballast 42w bulbs that I wrote up http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=143345.

 

[maryjohn]

I don't see how a curved screen helps with cfl's. Keep it simple.

Your soil mix with vermiculite will be too wet. Nix the vermiculite. But you can't beat homemade compost from your friend. Why don't you head on over to the organics thread and look up lc mix? There is a recipe that just requires water and tea if you feel like it. And for your size grow tea is simple as throwing compost in a small bucket and stirring. Takes 5 minutes. Brewing is for making gallons of it with the same amount of compost.

You are right to assume you need to maximize soil volume. Use containers that fit the shape of your cab. Don't be afraid to make on out of square trashcans.

Strains - fast flowering indica that does not purple.

 

[maryjohn]

Double post. Mod: delete plz Ty.

 

[freeride high]

I don't see how a curved screen helps with cfl's. Keep it simple.

Your soil mix with vermiculite will be too wet. Nix the vermiculite. But you can't beat homemade compost from your friend. Why don't you head on over to the organics thread and look up lc mix? There is a recipe that just requires water and tea if you feel like it. And for your size grow tea is simple as throwing compost in a small bucket and stirring. Takes 5 minutes. Brewing is for making gallons of it with the same amount of compost.

You are right to assume you need to maximize soil volume. Use containers that fit the shape of your cab. Don't be afraid to make on out of square trashcans.

Strains - fast flowering indica that does not purple.

curved=more surface area.

 

[maryjohn]

Cfl field of light = flat. (assuming you use several as is more efficient)

How much surface area as a percentage is gained from curving the screen attached to a single pot? I could understand over a large area but then I would curve my field of light as well, by using hps.

With cfl, we are told to keep them close. Curving your screen means some is close, some isn't. Unless you mount the bulbs on a curve? Nah - keep it simple and flat.

 

[grouchy]

I don't see how a curved screen helps with cfl's. Keep it simple.

Cfl field of light = flat. (assuming you use several as is more efficient)

How much surface area as a percentage is gained from curving the screen attached to a single pot? I could understand over a large area but then I would curve my field of light as well, by using hps.

With cfl, we are told to keep them close. Curving your screen means some is close, some isn't. Unless you mount the bulbs on a curve? Nah - keep it simple and flat.

The bulbs are round and generally mounted in the middle of the cab. Curving the edge of the screen up on the sides will get the part of the screen that is farther away from the lights closer to them as well as increasing the size of the screen. It may not work in every situation but to say that it does not work with cfls is flat out wrong.

As for keeping it simple, I don't know how a curved screen is harder to manage than a flat screen. They are both screens and the concept and execution are the exact same. One will just be larger within the same growing area and closer to the lights across the whole screen than the other if done right.

 

[maryjohn]

To make good use of cfl bulbs you want many points of light evenly spread out, not congregated in the middle. If you set up your cfl's like hps lights you will not do as well. Play to the bulbs strengths.

Think about it.

Curved screens are for hps users. Or vertical/colliseum types.

Edit: also maybe a nano scrog with only room for one lamp.

 

[grouchy]

JackStraw21 - Sorry if this seems like a thread hijack.

maryjohn - No, not all the bulbs will be mounted in the direct center of the cab. Most people do not put cfls right next to the walls so there will be less light towards the edges of a flat screen. By curving the screen up towards the edge of the wall you will not be moving the screen away from the cfls in the middle and you will get it closer on the sides. To say that curving your screen is only for hps and vertical is misguiding. It is a concept that can be used with any scrog as long as it creates more surface area and gets the screen closer to the lights along the whole screen. I drew a picture to help out.

 

[JackStraw21]

Grouchy, thanks for the tip on lighting. I'll definitely start with 3 42s. I don't want to deal with any more heat than necessary. Also, don't worry I don't see your debate with maryjohn as a thread-jack, after all the conclusion will be implemented in my grow.

I can see your point about the curved screen. It will give the plant more surface area for the light to hit, especially near the sides of the cab. Your simple picture really made this obvious. I can see why maryjohn was arguing his point about HPS lights, because the light is emitted from a single source, whereas CFLs are not. But grouchy's curved screen still makes sense because it should in theory maximize the plants contact with light.

Also, I love the idea of DIYing remote ballasts for the cfls. This would help with heat and space. Could I do something like this (the arrows describe air flow): -> bulbs(in cooltube) -> carbon scrubber -> fan.

Any idea on what size fan im looking at to cool 3 42 watt cfls and pull air through the scrubber. I could do something like this too I assume: -> fan -> bulbs(in cooltube) -> carbon scrubber -> fan. Wouldn't having the fans inline like that give them better ability to pump air out of the cab, past the bulbs, and through the scrubber?

Maryjohn thanks for the strain help. Fast flowering indica makes sense, but why no purple? I'm not looking for a purple strain just wondering why that is a factor.

Thanks so much guys

 

[grouchy]

Wanna see what tossed together for you?

Introducing the first 126w cool tubed spiral cfl grow lamp! Ballasts not included.

Stick that down in your half-pipe and smoke it.

 

[maryjohn]

purple strains: purple is a sign of deficiency, so it's best to know it's not the strain if you see it. one less thing to be uncertain about. I say to get something fast because who wants a slow first grow?

here is how I have been scrogging. I start with the legs already mounted in the pot when I transplant. this is freebie mazar started from seed that only wants to be a bush (edit: no wait, that's its brother that I chopped down, not the same as the plant below, which was squatter on transplant day):

and today. I flipped 12/12 on friday I think. I trained right before this picture:

I don't know if maybe I lose surface area, but this is so damn handy in an 18 gal rubbermaid. This is simple stuff. some pvc, some chicken wire, and some cable ties. Oh, and a hacksaw with a new blade. If you want your canopy to be curved like your drawing, just let it grow higher around the edges. I don't do that because in my cab the edges get smooshed sometimes, but the cab i'm working on has more room. I will give it a go, so thanks for the tip.

 

[grouchy]

I worked up a cab design for you. No charge.

If you were to use the remote ballast cfls in the cool tube you could run it into a 4" to 6" adapter to mount it and seal it to the wall.

Under the adapter you could mount the pc fans stacked on top of each other to get more pulling power. Attached to the fans underneath the 6" duct adapter you could make up a carbon filter like this - http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=86726&highlight=carbon

Using the adapter over the carbon filter will allow you to mount a bigger surface area filter inline with the cool tube. Let me know if you need better pics to explain that idea.

You will need to make a reflector for the cool tube to recycle the light bounced upwards.

Now that your light is mounted and cooled and your air is clean lets move on to the screen.

Dividing the screen into a front section and back section will allow you to easily remove it from the cab. Usable distance for a 42w bulbs is 3" without a cool tube. Usable distance with a cool tube is probably touching. Using you cabs dimensions you can get a 4" cool tube and a screen within 4" on each side. You would want to keep the growth under the screen during veg and let the buds grow up through the screen and fill the 4" gap with 4" buds. The stretch you will get by keeping the plants four inches away will help you fill the screen and the 4" gap between the bulb and the screen. Using a curved screen in this cab setup will give you a growing surface of 2 sq ft as opposed to the 1.33 sq ft of a flat screen.

These ares just some ideas to help you maximize your cab and cool it more efficiently.

 

[JackStraw21]

Grouchy and maryjohn, you've gone above and beyond any expectations I had for replies to this post. Thanks so much for your time and effort.

Grouchy, I'm a little lost with your idea. Remote ballasted 42 watt cfls in a cooltube connected to a 4" to 6" adapter sealed to the wall as in the picture - I get it. Where I'm lost is after the picture. Mount the pc fans connected to a filter underneaththe adapter? I'm not really sure of what you mean by this. Is it cooltube->adapter->wall->fans->filter? This is all I could think of but that doesn't explain the fans and filter being "under" the adapter. I'm lost haha. I'm lovin the idea though just make your description idiot-proof for me!

Maryjane, that seems like a great way to make an easy SCROG screen, I think I will combine it with grouchy's curved screen idea. Are those filpped water bottles used to water your plants over a period of time. How well does that work? It seems like it would be a very hassle free alternative to hand watering, or at least good for extended periods of time away from your plants.

Thanks again guys!

 

[grouchy]

Mount the fans to the wall first then mount the filter to the fans. Then slide the cone of the adapter over the filter and fan before sealing to wall. I was a little out of order while typing because it came off the top of my head.

I will go out of my way for people when they do their research first. I get tired of explaining the same noobie things over and over.

 

[maryjohn]

heya jack the bottle is connected to a "plant nanny", which is a ceramic or some such material spike into which a plastic spike that fits to the bottle is inserted. sometimes it empties in a day if the soil is dry, sometimes it takes a week. if you water more it will just water less. I got them when I had to leave for 7 days at the end of flowering, and wound up leaving them in. The moisture level is nice and constant and the roots seem to love it.

I think it's important to be able to take the screen out of the cab for training. so whatever design you choose make sure it has handles or you can pick it up by the screen.

re: grouchy's design - are you sure 4" is enough? seems awfully tight.

 

[sneakinman13]

hell ya grouchy. that cfl cooltube looks super dope! you got that baby up and runnin yet?

 

[grouchy]

Never tested any part of the designs I suggested. Just tossing ideas around is all.