15 plant coco grow, recurring Nutrient/Magnesium deficiency problem

[bonecarver_OG]

ec 1.2 works great late in flower

for the young plants in veg id give more than that - about 1.4 atleast.

some strains want more nutes than others. i can only give general guidelines on nutricion feed EC.

peace

 

[bonecarver_OG]

mixing tap water and ro water is a good solution.

plants dont want a too low ec of the start water.. an ec of 0.2-0.4 works very fine, lower than this and you have to add calcium and other nutes.

 

[EvilTwin]

Hey ET, will this do the job??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REVERSE-OSMOS...s_JN?hash=item45e97a6c7a&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

Thanks, Tokesome

That looks like a good unit. A larger production capacity then mine. The permeate pump that WW referred to will up the output. It does make them more efficient...but if you're on a budget, you can get by nicely without the pump. You can always add it later.

What I'd suggest is to make sure that you buy it from a company that's established. I bought mine on eBay but I checked the company's website first. I just wanted to make sure that I had access to the correct replacement filters with no big hassle.

I use my RO water straight (no added tap) and never had any deficiencies in 2 years of hydro with hydroton.
Peace,
ET

 

[Tokesome]

Hey Bonecarver, you seem to give the opposite advice to all nutrien packaging and most grow regimes regarding Ec, I find that a bit strange, can you elaborate?

Yeah thanks ET and W W. I`ve heard of going half half RO/tapwater. can you collect the waste as normal tap water if necessary? It`s not going to happen this grow and I doubt it`d have any beneficial affect at this late stage, but I`ll get one in for the start of the next grow.

One important question relating to whether it might be down to the water quality, would the water quality affect plants within the first 4 weeks from cloning? ie., is it due to an eventual build up of calcium that is the problem, and if so would I be likely to have problems so early on in a grow?

I`ve set my nutes, for what its worth at Ec17-18. 1.5 ml per ltr B`cuzz A+B, 1ml per ltr PK13/14, 1/2 teaspoon per 10ltrs of Epsom Salts, 2ml per ltr Bloom stimulator (Freakin waste of money I reckon), 1ml per 10ltrs Ataclean. Ph is between 5.8 and 6.0

I cant see that I can do anymore for them at the moment, and I suspect they`ll put little more weight on them over the last 2-3 weeks as happened the last grow.

Tokesome

 

[bonecarver_OG]

tokesome

why do you think they say to use that high EC?.. when plants grow exceptionally well in far less??

the world is a market and money rules. the quicker they can get the customers to empty the bottles the better for them.

it is a well established rule of thumb LESS IS MORE.

once you try it you will understand...

also remember allways - high N levels brings down potency and resin production...


when i use 15 ml A+B/ 10 liters, i start of with a base water ec of 0.4, and i end up at EC 1.0 or less

are you sure your EC meter is well calibrated?

something is wrong in the picture to say the least - is your base water EC extremelly high?

 

[Tokesome]

Hey Bonecarver, Thanks for that. I`ve been growing over 20 years, I`ve tried many different ways in that time. I agree the manufacturers definitely over sell their products, and I`ve rarely used them at their recommended strength.

However 1.2 I reckon would be low for plants 2-3 weeks from harvest, and the high Ec for plants just vegging, how do you explain that when manufacturers are recommending lower strength mixes.

I`d expect to see tip burn to show throughout the grow if it was just down to nutrient strength, and it isnt.

I`ll get back with run off strength, but have you read through this thread properly as I`ve done this before?

I`m not a fan of the worlds ways of money rules and yes I`m well aware we are encouraged to use more than is necessary. Having said that, the companies would shoot themselves in the foot if they toxicly poisoned all of our plants, surely?

Tokesome

 

[bonecarver_OG]

if you read the sticky by Gaiusmarius, you will see we both have pretty similar philosophies.

i think this should explain it;
in veg i let the plants have more tapwater in the mix in relation to distilled water. for example in veg i might use a BASE water EC of 0.6 - this makes sure most of the time it is not necesary to add epsom salts or calcium at all for the plants throughtout the rest of the grow. in fact i dont use cal-mag at all. also i should say the water where i live is rich in minerals. there is roman abths etc not far off. in many places of the world the water is not directly suitable for cannabis to perform its best. one thing is true - using RO water the plants get deprived of multiple macro nutrients and minerals they would normally have access to. now if you tap water has not too good mineral content, i can not guarantee your results will be as spectacular as
mine using my method, but still i recomned full hearted to use less nutes in general.

do a test run - and then report back. i dont have time to explain too much, if you read the pages of my thread that are from this year and you will get a lot of tips. and pics showing it in effect.

in flower i keep the EC lower - from about 0.3 to 0.5 max. this gives more "headroom" for the nutes to work. in a HIGH EC environment a plant has dificulties to eat and this means they will produce less.

more is less. <- easy proverb and VERY true when it comes to ganja.

one thing is true.

i dont have these issues that im trying to solve for others on a daily basis here on the coco forum.

alas - something is rigth in my method

if you dont mind i will show you a little nug to illustrate

grown with ec 1.1 last month or so of flowering. occasional peaks of 1.3 when adding PK 13-14, and thats it.

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi Guys,
Nice nug Bonecarver!

I mixed up some dry nutes following the directions and it read out at 2.5 EC. Another example of exaggerated ratios.

Tokesome...there's nothing toxic in the RO waste runoff water so you could use that to add back micro-nutrients. Just keep in mind that will probably have at least 10% higher dissolved solids then your regular tap water so you would need to use less of it.

Now this is going to be a totally unpopular opinion on a coco forum...but before I went with E&F with hydroton, I used coco for almost a year and had deficiency and problems with every grow. I was an un-sophisticated coco grower...I admit that. Point is there are aspects to coco that require very different techniques and you end up paying the price by not doing it right. Pre-flush to rid coco of Na, Coco specific nutes, pre-soak to fill with cations, and a tried and true coco growing technique are a few of the things I'd be sure to do if I were to try coco again.
Peace,
ET

 

[Tokesome]

Hey Bonecarver, yeah as Et says, nice nug indeed.

But fella`s I`ve been growing for 20yrs and more now so I`m no beginner, though I feel totally useless at the mo. I started growing in Hydro, rockwool and spreader mat nft stylie. I moved to coco about seven or 8 yrs ago and have grown successfully averaging 60+ oz a grow, maybe not staggering off of 3 600w sodiums but pretty good and consistent. I`ve never had problems that I have`nt been able to diagnose and overcome quickly until picking up this strain, which I`m in my 3rd grow.

I`m at a total loss as to why I`m having these problems, I dont think its the nutrient regime myself, I`d have serious signs of nute burn on the tips throughout the plant, but I have`nt. I never use the nutes at the recommended strength, the recommended by Atami is 2.5-3ml per litre in week 7, I`m using 1.5ml, I believe the full strength would be upwards of Ec25. Dont get me wrong, I`m here to gain advice and I take everything in, and I appreciate your views and opinions, but bonecarver, you must realise that there is no single best way to grow and several different ways work, and you`ll get several people to testify to each method (as you`ll know from this site), I know this and I`ve tried many running side by side tests. Usually in a recirculating system with good run off I let the plants tell me how strong they want the nutes by measuring the run off and the over all res Ec, if it remains constant I leave alone if it drifts in either direction I flush if necessary and adjust things, its always worked well enough. Basically canna is an easy plant to grow and get decent potency and yeild, its a weed. Not all though it seems.

Its beyond me this one it seems, and I think I have a good strain of big bud to go with next time that`s been producing high potency and yield, so will probably scrap this cheese, though it`ll set me back a couple of weeks as I have to wait that long for the plants to develop in a mates grow before I can take cuttings. Its a shame though, I dont like to be beaten like this, I`d like to get to the bottom of things incase I come up against it again.

The young plants in the grow tent look a little stronger and more colour in them today. I`m now using bottled water from the supermarket to feed them with. I have them on Ec12 including epsom salts at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon. I`ll hopefully be able to determine if the water makes a difference. I dont see it really though as I went round to my friends house who is doing well with this plant to see if I could see any difference to what we`re doing, and I just cant. Its hot in there they`re being fed recirculating with plenty of run off, Ec15, ph around 6.2, completely mylar`d room and they`re thriving. There`s a photo attached of one of her plants, it was taken with the sodiums on so excuse the colour cast but as you can see they`re doing just fine with no yellowing and all a rich green.

Tokesome

 

[Tokesome]

I`ve just checked the run off and the Ec and the ph is the same coming out as going in, except in one of the three res` the Ec is 1 point higher.

Hey Bonecarver, I did`nt mean to be dismissive of your comments and it cant do any harm at this stage of the game, tmro I`ll try flushing one of the 3 trays of plants and giving them a low nute solution and see if they like it any better. It may help your research eh?

Tokesome

 

[bonecarver_OG]

im not doing any research hehe

the saltbuild-up can be excluded from so smal ec difference in feed and flush.

 

[Tokesome]

My mistake mate ;-D, You said you wanted the info for diagnosis, not research.

I`ve come to the conclusion that I must be giving off poisonous gasses and my plants cant cope. Or maybe I`m depressing them. . . got to stay rational. . . got to stay rational. . . got to sta

 

[bonecarver_OG]

dude stay cool hehe
we got one factor eliminated, we are on our way

one thing i saw just now is this

Each pot has a 70/30 mix of coco/clay pebbles, with an additional 3 or 4 cm layer of clay pebbles at the bottom to assist drainage.

clay pebbles dry a lot quicker than the coco.

in the beginning i used to use also hydroton in the bottom, and when i got to half way thru flowering, or when roots have touched the bottom and the hydroton, they get burnt and this shows on the leafs in the tip that get burn like symptoms, but it is not really because of nute ec - rather the fact the hydroton gets sucked dry quick and the root dies there.

what i saw at this time was usually fan leafs in the higher part of the plant with damage, in some the necrosis even led to holes in the leafs.

any similarities to what you see?

the problem i had went away when i got rid of the clayballs.

if not this

the only option left is lock out because of something.

peace

 

[Tokesome]

Mmm, just looking at your hand watering thread, early on you`re using hydroton or broken pots at the bottom of your pots. When did you change and what do you do now, ie to assist drainage?

I got to say the roots do look burned at the bottom. I started using Hydroton in the bottom just a few grows back, cant remember exactly when. Its definitely occurring in the upper leaves more, but I`d expect that from most problems as its these leaves that are nearer the lights and nearer the main energy usurping parts of the plants. I dont know if that`s a correct assumption though.

Tokesome

 

[bonecarver_OG]

cant remember exactly when i changed darn i should go back and edit that thread some day its got pics from old threads on forums now closed.

the pots i use now are made for hydro use. they got a lot of drainage holes. thats it. i dont mix anything with the coco at all. i find perlite could be an option but it floats up thru coco too easy and finally all of it is on the top part

the truth is coco works best on its own.

you can do a "transplant" kind of - lifting up the plant - quickly brushing of the hydroton in the bottom that is stuck to the roots, empty the bottom of the pots, and put in a few handlfulls of coco and throw the plant back into the pot. its anoying to transplant in mid flowering but it can be done.

i think in some way the different areas of a plant is reflected in the roots, and since the coco gets populated by the roots first before the hydroton, the damage apeared later whe the plants grow bigger and more of the roots were in the hydroton.

did you change to hydroton mix at the same time as to growing cheese? might be that cut of yours needs more rootspace and thats it.

if so the solution is fairly easy. if the plants now are too big, just continue to the end, and next round skip the hydroton, and get more chunkier coco if you want higher drainage.

peace

 

[bonecarver_OG]

i think u can safelly continue to have some hydroton mixed with the coco - but you can avoid the drainage layer. if your trays get waterlogged, put something under the pots.

 

[Tokesome]

Well it is very interesting what you`re saying. Did you have problems all the time when using hydroton and broken pots in the bottom of the pots? I thought this was standard practice for coco growing.

When you say your pots are designed for hydro with bigger holes, what exactly do you mean? How are you feeding now, stil by hand or have you gone automated?

Thanks for giving my situation some serious thought, its really appreciated.

Tokesome

 

[bonecarver_OG]

ok good day to ya

no not all the time - some plants and strains got more affected, also some areas of the growroom was more affected.

standard practise for coco growing is to use coco and nothing else maximum it is recomended to use perlite mixed in the medium, but in no way is it recomended to use anything in the bottom of the pot to increase drainage. i think today not many gardeners are even recomending that anymore because of the loss of rootspace. its better to modify the pot than deprive the plant of rootmass.

i avoid to search for info at sources that are not too reliable. i follow the instructions of agricultural and agronomic studies. they are the only ones who really controll the use of different mediums and what is best suitable for it. you wont find many profesional coco related culture sites for veggies, flowers or such ever mention putting anything in the bottom of the pots.

i bet it was some soilgrower that first thought of that. but today i dont think the drainage layer isnt even recomended for soil grows for same reason as above. its better to make a specific mix of substrate for plants needing much drainage.

the pots i use have big drainage holes and a lot of them. minimum 8x per 12L pot. size per hole 1x1 inch. bigger pots even bigger holes and more of them.

i still feed by hand. automation is not the best options, if one got time to spend on the plants. nothing works better than individual treatment of each plant adjust the feeding
to each one of them

hope you follow what i mean

 

[Tokesome]

Hey Bonecarver, I`ve just repotted one of my trays, 3rd of my plants. I removed the bottom layer of hydroton and replaced with coco.

Things didn`t look as bad as I thought in the lower root mass, ie did`nt look too burned. Also half hour after lights on and the hydroton was still nice and moist and not dried out.

I cant see this being the answer by the looks of things in the bottom of the pots, but we`ll see for sure now if there`s time for any improvement at this late stage.

Also I`m having this problem with young plants, which does`nt fit with your later in the grow bit regarding the hydroton at the bottom of the pots.

Here`s the pic proof.


Tokesome

 

[Tokesome]

Mmm, just something that has come to mind. Hydroton at the bottom where the main root mass, would that give the right enviroment for the main root mass in combination with the coco specific nutes.

ie. the nutes being designed to go with roots in coco, because of coco`s particular make up and how it stores some elements well and others poorly, I`m wondering if the main roots are getting it out of balance and as a result locking out some nutes.

It may be bollox, but hopefully someone will chip in here or in this thread where I`ve asked a similar question. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2776842#post2776842

The other thing that has made me think along these lines is that my friend who is growing this successfully is mixing nothing in with her coco, something I`d totally overlooked in comparing set-ups as I though it could`nt have a bearing, just thought mine would have better drainage.

Tokesome