Lacto Bacilli: process and discussion

[maryjohn]

anaerobic respiration: (glucose) C6H12O6 > (lactic acid) 2CH3CH(OH)COOH + 2 ATP (ATP is basic unit of energy)


I believe aerobic respiration results in CO2 and H2O.

C6H12O6 (aq) + 6 O2 (g) → 6 CO2 (g) + 6 H2O

here is what I don't know: do lactobacilli go into aerobic respiration when exposed to O2? or just go slower?


as for the local microbes thing, I'm not making a judgement either way, but that is the reason it is done when it is done. Another great source of fermenting micros is your hands. I used to keep a jar of moist rice bran on my counter, and I stirred it with my hands every day, interestingly enough, which is a bit like bubbling, for a short time, no?

anyway, the bran eventually began to pickle small bits of vegetable to make a japanese pickle called nuka zuke.

What I would say about local microbiology is that the lambic valley shows us that not all regions are the same. No beer is like lambic beer, and they add no yeast due to a very special microclimate.

 

[rrog]

MJ you have interesting posts and I enjoy them. Thanks for them.

I have a failed milk culture and a new rice culture. old milk was bubbling, I now suspect overly rapidly. So now dialed in so just super light bubble.

The new rice culture sat out and cool overnight with open top. Now loose seal as prescribed but with an added super low bubble.

I wouldn't be screwing around with the bubbles if it weren't for the fact that another poster (LadyL) has had jawdropping rates for her completion of process. Starting on post 21:

I might offer that the balance of that thread fundamentally changed the way I view plant growth altogether. I have a science background and have absolutely become infatuated with the whole organic pro-biotic aspect.

MJ I think you particularly might enjoy a look at that thread.

 

[rrog]

What I would say about local microbiology is that the lambic valley shows us that not all regions are the same. No beer is like lambic beer, and they add no yeast due to a very special microclimate.

There was a great post back a ways in this thread about bakers swapping yeasts, since after a few cycles, cultures become dominated by the local flora, exactly as you describe.

It's really like a whole other world with different local populations.

 

[maryjohn]

thanks I'll take a look. I'll be looking at what temp she is fermenting at.

my science is old and barely high school level. When I learned about respiration I was in the 10th grade and had a brand new Dead Milkmen t-shirt. My education is in the Arts.

 

[spiral]

Hey rrog. Dont think yor bubbling method failed, sure the LB were there. But with the bubbling part i think they may have been outcompeted. I have some notes about this.

LB is an Aerotolerant anaerobe, meaning they can tolerate oxygen, but cannot take over in an oxygen rich environment. Aerotolerant bacteria ferment carbohydrates to lactic acid. Lactic acid inhibits the growth of aerobic competitors. But I think in an oxygen rich environment they are not reprodcing as they should be and being out competed,by the other bacteria present.

Did or could you check the ph of the solution. As the LB reproduce rapidly the ph drops, pretty fast actually. This should be able to show you whats going on in there.


Like your thinking with the yogert stuff. I wonder if we could use raw cow milk?

 

[maryjohn]

Just off the top of my head I am going to guess the best milk to use is powdered.

Thanks for clearing that up (I think): lacto b does not switch to aerobic respiration, but instead just carries on doing the lacto thing? Can you give a source?

Post above suggests bubbling is counter productive. Read some of the referenced posting and find ms. Largely to be impatient and a little confused on the science. An yet she is a force to be reckoned with and gets results. However this is not the same as a paragon.

 

[jaykush]

in short, just stick to the instructions, they work fine and don't need to be improved on. impatience only gets you so far.

keep it simple stupid comes to mind.

 

[vonforne]

in short, just stick to the instructions, they work fine and don't need to be improved on. impatience only gets you so far.

keep it simple stupid comes to mind.

LOL

 

[JackTheGrower]

Took rice and soaked it in water a half day.. Strained the rice out.. Let that water sit in a plastic in the equipment bay where it is warm from the ballasts for 7 days.. Had some solids floating.. Added organic whole milk and it made cheese.. Dumped that into the BSF leachate and it has made a thick head of chocolate whip cream looking stuff now. I am bubbling.
The smell is not so sharp as before and I guess this lacto B will further process the leachate.

Interesting and fun to culture it from the air and rice water..

 

[StrillaGuy]

This is great! Im gonna get my enviro friendly cleaner made up asap.

Can this be used in hydro resivoir other thank sprayed on media for gnats? Like benificial bactirium in lava rocks?

 

[rrog]

in short, just stick to the instructions, they work fine and don't need to be improved on. impatience only gets you so far.

keep it simple stupid comes to mind.

So no room to improve? You still drive a horse drawn carriage? Unless LadyL is completely fabricating her LactoB posts, she seems to have a way to do this process a heck of a lot faster. I'd see that as a distinct improvement.

Just off the top of my head I am going to guess the best milk to use is powdered.

The first post in this thread hypothesized that fresh milk was better.

Post above suggests bubbling is counter productive.

Something I did was counter-productive. You can't draw the conclusion that all bubbling is counter-productive.

Read some of the referenced posting and find ms. Largely to be impatient and a little confused on the science.


That's a big criticism. Where is the confused science?

An yet she is a force to be reckoned with and gets results. However this is not the same as a paragon.

You should read the thread.

Keep an open mind people.

 

[rrog]

Hey rrog. Dont think yor bubbling method failed, sure the LB were there. But with the bubbling part i think they may have been outcompeted. I have some notes about this.

LB is an Aerotolerant anaerobe, meaning they can tolerate oxygen, but cannot take over in an oxygen rich environment. Aerotolerant bacteria ferment carbohydrates to lactic acid. Lactic acid inhibits the growth of aerobic competitors. But I think in an oxygen rich environment they are not reprodcing as they should be and being out competed,by the other bacteria present.

Did or could you check the ph of the solution. As the LB reproduce rapidly the ph drops, pretty fast actually. This should be able to show you whats going on in there.


Like your thinking with the yogert stuff. I wonder if we could use raw cow milk?

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'm making an assumption that the bubbling LactoB method isn't a deception by the referenced poster. I haven't been successful yet, but that's certainly not to say that the method is invalid. I'm just not sure why it works.

Adding O2 may give Anaerobes a disadvantage. I can see that. And since LactoB is still doing it's thing (why wouldn't it? This little bubbling isn't super-saturating the levels of O2) it's anaerobically producing Lactic Acid. The Lactic Acid gives Aerobes a disadvantage.

So in this scenario, the LactoB may be given a unique advantage right from the start. O2 tolerant and still able to anaerobically respire.

My lack of success may be because it's too cool where I'm doing the bubbling. Or something else. I'm just very intrigued by the potential to create a serum in less than 1/2 the time. To me that's worth fussing around with this.

 

[jaykush]

So no room to improve? You still drive a horse drawn carriage? Unless LadyL is completely fabricating her LactoB posts, she seems to have a way to do this process a heck of a lot faster. I'd see that as a distinct improvement.

explain to me how faster = better, i am all ears.

 

[maryjohn]

rrog, Ms. Largely specifically states that she is trying to eliminate anaerobes and culture aerobes. aerobes do not make cheese. that is just one example of her lack of basic understanding but it is major.

Above, when I referred to " the above" I meant spiral's post. We can draw the conclusion from there that bubbling is likely counter productive. I can make a broader criticism that it is plain old false equivalence to assume bubbling "makes things brew". It's kindergarten logic.

Some people can just pull things off. People like me have to get things perfect or it blows up. don't know where you stand, but that's just the way it is.

bottom line: if you want to speed up your fermentation, use an incubator. You say you make yogurt? Well you should be teaching lady largely, not the other way around. you are already a lacto b expert.

 

[rrog]

explain to me how faster = better, i am all ears.

OK slow is good for you. That's fine. Me (and I suspect a few others) would see having cut the time in half as being an advantage.

 

[rrog]

rrog, Ms. Largely specifically states that she is trying to eliminate anaerobes and culture aerobes. aerobes do not make cheese. that is just one example of her lack of basic understanding but it is major.

Unless she's fabricated the whole pictorial (and I'm not believing that) then her results speak for themselves. Wouldn't you agree?

Above, when I referred to " the above" I meant spiral's post. We can draw the conclusion from there that bubbling is likely counter productive. I can make a broader criticism that it is plain old false equivalence to assume bubbling "makes things brew". It's kindergarten logic.

Like the logic that from my one bubbling failure "we can draw the conclusion from there that bubbling is likely counter productive?" That's not science.

I'm surprised at the overall resistance here to something new.

 

[jaykush]

OK slow is good for you. That's fine. Me (and I suspect a few others) would see having cut the time in half as being an advantage.

other than SPEED( which really is only a few days at most), what is the advantage? how are you sure your culture is at its best? do any of you check it with a microscope? done test trials on plants? have you even tried the method in this thread?


not trying to be a jerk, just curious.

 

[rrog]

other than SPEED( which really is only a few days at most), what is the advantage? No other advantage that I'm aware of.

how are you sure your culture is at its best? Foaming stops indicating food is gone.


do any of you check it with a microscope? Nope

done test trials on plants? No personally, no. I've only every grown once before.

have you even tried the method in this thread? No, I tried a modified method first.

not trying to be a jerk, just curious.

All of these questions are great, but don't dismiss the potential for a faster way to create LactoB serum. I am also not looking to be a jerk, but other than Spiral, people have essentially commented on why I'm silly for not following the standard plan. Stupid, and the like. Like the alternative bubbling is some urban legend like sasquatch.

 

[maryjohn]

All of these questions are great, but don't dismiss the potential for a faster way to create LactoB serum. I am also not looking to be a jerk, but other than Spiral, people have essentially commented on why I'm silly for not following the standard plan. Stupid, and the like. Like the alternative bubbling is some urban legend like sasquatch.

easy there, no one is saying you are any sillier than the rest of us, which is pretty damn silly.

the point of bubbling is to increase DO2. We've gone over why increased DO2 is not helpful for lacto B fermentation. they just don't use it at all. so bubbling can only increase the competition.

It's not you my comments mostly point to, it's Lady L. nobody thinks you are stupid, and the adventurous are desirable. take note though, that your results were not as advertised, whereas many already do the accepted method and get easy results. better?

 

[rrog]

OK my apologies all around.

the point of bubbling is to increase DO2. We've gone over why increased DO2 is not helpful for lacto B fermentation. they just don't use it at all. so bubbling can only increase the competition.

As I mentioned, increasing DO2 may decrease the (non-LactoB) anaerobes advantage.

Since the LactoB can deal with DO2, it continues anaerobically. Just means it doesn't use the O2. Doesn't mean it's particularly hindered by it at low levels. And it's making Lactic Acid, which reduces Aerobes advantage.

So I can see how adding DO2 might (might) decrease the advantage of both Anaerobes and Aerobes. But because of the unique O2 accommodation of our LactoB it is immediately moved to the top of the food chain. Both classes of competitors are disadvantaged.

If this started with the rice wash, then arguably by the time the rice wash was done, it might be quite heavily LactoB. The subsequent milk ferment would already start out with heavy LactoB and move quickly to amplify / purify.

Just a theory to explain what LadyL is doing / getting. And I have immense respect for the achieved OBBT system.

Thanks for listening.