mycorrhizae with organics

[maryjohn]

Ummm... I say this as a bipolar person - are you off your meds?


I'll just touch one point - you are confused about the meaning of available P.

Available P is by definition in ionic form. That means it is either a free ion or in solution and temporarily separated from the other part of the molecule. It does not mean "available" in the general sense, as is sequestered or non soluble P available as an option for mycorhizae. Get the difference?

As for my statement which is quoted, I am not sure it has anything to do with you. You posted so much garbage I can't figure out what I meant.

 

[ganja din]

Ummm... I say this as a bipolar person - are you off your meds?


I'll just touch one point - you are confused about the meaning of available P.

Wow. Not the response I expected. I pre-wrote all these posts over the past week so I could post them all today. Like I said, I have limited time to access this site. I thought I'd share my knowledge for the betterment of the community. Sorry for bothering you...

Available P is by definition in ionic form. That means it is either a free ion or in solution and temporarily separated from the other part of the molecule. It does not mean "available" in the general sense, as is sequestered or non soluble P available as an option for mycorhizae. Get the difference?

Organic P is different than inorganic P, it mainly comes via the soil foodweb, as does most nitrogen in nature. Organic P has a 'available' fraction from the soil foodweb which tends to not wash due to the mico-herd, and a 'non-available organic P fraction. Think of it, some P from soft rock phosphate is immediately available to the microbes and the plant, however, most is locked away and needs to be broken down my the microbes before it becomes "available" to the plant. I promise I'm not lying . Go to the Pennsylvania State U, Analytical Services Lab. Then read about the USCC (US Composting Council) on their site, the same test they use. Which shows avabi9le organic P...

As for my statement which is quoted, I am not sure it has anything to do with you. You posted so much garbage I can't figure out what I meant.

I honestly don't know what my response was, but if I responded to your post I felt my post was relevant and useful. I hope I don't come across as brash. Ah, I think I asked you to quote the text from the paper you were referring to. I was trying to help you but I didn't know what part of the 42 page paper you were referring to.

May I suggest people read the 2nd post a few times? It took me a few days to write and if the concepts and terms are new to people it will take longer to digest I assume. I mean, considering I found a lot of errors in a paper written by a well known PhD who specializes in AM fungi says something (besides the obviously biased trend toward selling the reader AM products). I think the topics and material I presented are kinda advanced, I tried to write it as well as I could.

Honestly, if people read my posts a few times, esp. the 2nd one, I think people will see I'm not full of BS and my intentions are good.

And reading some of the papers I referenced might help people, and they are very interesting. And reading about "Luekbe Compost", and "Controlled Microbial Composting) is REALLY interesting and relevant.

 

[maryjohn]

Ah I see, I thought you sat there and wrote all those posts on the spot. It's too long man. Forum is a condensed manner of speaking.

I think you miss the point about P and now you have two terms of confusion: organic, and available.

Organic in the the field that speaks of available P, which is biology and chemistry, means it has a carbon atom. That's all it means.

Organic gardening is a holistic approach to raising plants for consumption or decoration or utility. It is in effect a technology.

Case in point: urea. Used in conventional gardening. It is an organic compound. Also used in organic gardening by some. The difference is in origin: one comes from kidneys the other from a factory - but more important, urea in organic gardening is in effect a Piece of an alogether different technology.

Case # 2: rock phosphate v. Triple phosphate. Both are chemically inorganic. Rock phosphate unlike triple is good for organic gadening. Triple is treated with chemicals to make it more available, but mycorhizae can get at the rock phosphate and deliver it to the plant just as well as the plant can absorb the triple phosphate.

By keeping the available P in the medium low (while still providing plenty of total P), you see no deficiency due to the assistance of the fungus, even compared to a medium rich in available P. At the same time you get the benefits of never overdoing it, increased vigor, drought resistance, and protection during transplant. Good deal.

 

[jaykush]

uh....thanks ganja din, i know your intentions were in good nature, but you did just come out of no where lol.

as far as im concerned to "most people" that read is better than anything else ive come across. if you think that is innacurate, have you googled mycorrhizae lately? haha

when you get into journals and articles like you posted, people loose interest because they dont know wtf they just read.

 

[ganja din]

Hey again

Aha!

To answer what you asked quickly: liquid organic ferts should be fine for beneficial microbes.

Please see my first post in this thread. And note, in one great study by David D. Douds, Ph.D[1], he used BioBizz in one experiment as a means to increase nitrogen over a period of five weeks (3x a week). This allowed him to increase N without increasing P. N was increased to a level of ~210 ppm available organic N (the same level of N for his experiments with inorganic minerals)

He used a biobizz product "Biogrow" with 1.8-0.1-6.6 (%NPK).

AM fungi are generally tolerant to higher levels of potassium. The N/P ratio is important for AM fungi growth and reproduction.

In general, any kind of strong mineral based nutrient will kill off Mycorrhiza.

N over ~100 ppm will probably hinder AM fungi to the point of making its' use a waste. Although, Davd D. Douds, Ph.D has used 210ppm of N in his experiments and even with that much N, and much more K, it was the concentration of P and the ratio of N/P that effected the infection rates. P needs to be ~=<20 ppm to reach ~10-15% infection[1]. Very low P, <0.5% and <10 ppm have been found to support the highest growth and infection by AM fungi.

What you overall are asking about is fungal vigor. Given different environments and nutrients to consume various breeds of Mycorrhiza fungus will operate at various levels of strength.

Not in my understanding. Do you have any references? FWIW, fungus = singular and fungi = plural.

In a normal pot of well-amended organic soil a nice variety of dormant Mycorrhiza spores will take over rapidly and perform quite well.

I am not so sure. Please see my previous first post in this thread. Using live spores, mycelium/hyphae and infected host root biomass means a optimal level of host root infection between weeks ~5-10, longer studies are escaping me right now. Regardless, dormant (eg. freeze dried) AM fungi spores will take considerably longer to reach optimal infection percentage, maybe around weeks 8-14 weeks, or longer. Even if using live AM fungi spores optimal infection percentage will be a good bit longer than using live hyphae/mycelium and infected root biomass.

The trouble is keeping that happy environment the same over a long period of time. Soil compaction and lost space due to the damn thing filling with roots...

Well if the mycorrhiza association is strong and the AM fungus extraradical mycelium network is healthy the AM fungus will aggregate the media particles. The AM fungus produced "glomalin", along with microbial bio-film, and possibly other fungi exudes will also bind the aggregates and help prevent companion to a large degree. That is why I suggest "sustainable no-till organic horticulture" if one is using AM fungi in pots, raised-beds or soil.

...not to mention the build-up of non-nutritious water-insoluble material that is inherent to organic fertilizers

What chemicals, substances are you referring to? FWIW, the "Luebke Family" husband/wife team (creators of "Controlled Microbial Composting") cataloged over 3,600 different enzymes produced by various bacteria found in properly made 'hot', fast compost piles (3-6 weeks to maturation), and compost amended soils. And that's not counting those of enzymes, metabolites, etc, produced by fungi. The kicker is the Luekbes have a huge library of enzymes but they don't necessarily know what even most of them do. The assumption is the enzymes help mineralize/solublize rock dusts and other minerls, among a myriad of other abilities. It has been found in many studies to be the case, but most studies are on soft rock phosphate and other common rock/mineral powders.

I guess I'm implying maybe the enzymes produced by the microbes can breakdown what you are referring to in terms of insoluble-substances. Many microbe and fungi have bioremediation benefits, so maybe they offer the same in some instances in soils and media.

Even still, fungus developed this way does very well and will be quite stable. But as several have mentioned, that stability is a bit of a balancing act. A nearly 100% organic nute regime complete with high-carbohydrate amendments (lots of kelp) is basically a must to achieve a strong mycelium network in the medium.

Are you inferring that the kelp and carbs 'feed' the AM fungi or help it in some other direct fashion? So called 'AM fungi growth promoters', etc, are useless gymicks in most every case. According to current scientific understanding, AM fungi can only use sugars and chemicals produced by a host plant as 'food'. Though, I have spoken some researchers in the field and they suggest there may be methods to 'feed' AM fungi without a mycorrhiza association. However, it is so far only a theory.

And active! Do what you want to the soil, the pH will get automatically balanced by the microbes.

Just make sure the inital pH is between ~6 to <8, most AM fungi have a rather limited pH range. (which it would be anyway for Cannabis culture i guess)

They are so flexible and have such a large margin of control over the soil chemistry that a well-established Bio Box will withstand doses of salt-based fertilizers with Mycorrhiza colonies happily in-tact.

Can you please elaborate in detail? HOw can a 'bio box' (what is that anyway?) have any effect upon the tolerances of AM fungi in regards to inorganic fertilizers?

Keep the salt nutrient sources high-quality and the dosages reasonable and properly maintained Mycorhizae colonies can live through plenty of artificial fertilization.

What do you mean by "high-quality", a cation is a cation and a anion is anion. AM fungi have higher tolerances to N and K than any other minerals I am aware of.

I think it spoils the founding ideas of oxygen injected organics a little bit.

What is that? Bubbling the fertilizers prior to application? If so why? I think EJ can be hot? If it's for microbes plenty of them (mostly bacteria) will find the media (over a period of time vs time spend 'bubbling', if that is what you mean). I assume at least as much bacteria would find media, as would find the water surface area of the container holding the water/fert mix. The highest contamination vector in mycology is considered to be the fist 2 feet or so from the floor...


[1] “On-farm Production and Utilization of AM Fungus Inoculum”
Author(s): David D. Douds, PhD.
USDA-ARS Eastern Regional Research Center, June 16, 2009

Thanks

 

[maryjohn]

I get good results with lithium, by the way, and also risperidone.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

aint had a drink in 15 years but i'm about to get off the fkn wagon....are we tryin to manufacture a bomb or grow a plant?

 

[ganja din]

uh....thanks ganja din, i know your intentions were in good nature, but you did just come out of no where lol.

Suprise! haha j/k

as far as im concerned to "most people" that read is better than anything else ive come across. if you think that is innacurate, have you googled mycorrhizae lately? haha

haha. And I have about 60 other papers on AM fungi. All of them full text! If you ever want full text version of most any 'on-topic' paper I can get it for you for free. I have read your posts and like what you write.

I agree that paper you linked to is good, I wrote as much already. However, the goal of the paper is to teach consultants and those who are wish to be 'experts'. After reading it following your suggestion (thanks!), I thought I could offer some corrections. I think what I wrote isn't so crazy as is the volume. It seems you guys are having a knee jerk reaction (no offense) over the volume. Which is understandable. The material is written for people like us, not professional researchers, so I bet most people can read and comprehend what I wrote without much problem. I think the terms like "extraradical mycelium network" throws people off, but it's info that needs to be understood for a strong knowledge of AM fungi.

when you get into journals and articles like you posted, people loose interest because they dont know wtf they just read.

If I was posting something everyone knew I wouldn't post references. But the info is not commonly known, even by most 'experts', so it would not be legal (copy write issues), or ethical for me to not give credit through references. I know I get upset when someone claims the knowledge or data I might have worked hard to attain as their own.

And I enjoy looking at the references of papers I read. That is where one can find lots of other great sources of information

In fact, I decided to upload what I think are a few 'must reads' in terms of reference material and research. They are all written very well and the one by Steve Diver is written for us, not people in an ivory tower, and well written indeed. And because CMC is great and pretty unknown 'on this side of the pond' in the next post I will upload anther excellent paper by Steve Diver all about "Luekbe Family" compost, known as "Controlled Microbial Composting"...definitely pack of bowl or three of kind for those two Steve Diver papers! He rocks


1) “On-farm Production and Utilization of AM Fungus Inoculum”
Author(s): David D. Douds, PhD.
USDA-ARS Eastern Regional Research Center, June 16, 2009

NOTE: I had to split the first paper into two parts because it exceeds the max upload size per file of 1mb. To split the file I used "HJSplit", the same, or different programs can be used to join the files. I suggest and like the free HJSplit, it's cross-platform, you can get it here: http://www.freebyte.com/hjsplit/

a) To join the files you will have to remove the extension ".pfd", leaving ".001" and ".002" as the two extensions.

b) Choose the file with extension ".001" when joining the files.

c) Enjoy



2) “Appendix I. Checklist of steps for the on-farm production of arbuscular mycorrhizal [AM] fungus inoculum”
This appendix accompanies the article, “On-farm Production and Utilization of AM Fungus Inoculum”, by David D. Douds Jr., USDA-ARS Eastern Regional Research Center.


3) “Manual on Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungus Production and Inoculation Techniques”
Author(s): S.C. Miyasaka, M. Habte, J.B. Friday, and E.V. Johnson1
Departments of Tropical Plant and Soil Sciences and Natural Resources and Environmental Management
Soil and Crop Management, July 2003, SCM-5


Let me know what you think about (for or against) my interpretations of the paper you linked to, when you have time, no rush, thanks!

 

[maryjohn]

know thine audience.

I dig the papers, and would love to read them and hear about them at length in an appropriate PM, or at a colloquium where I am present to consume info in such a format. but we are conversational here. Take what you say and break it up into one or two points at a time. Links, not long quotes. Show you understanding by putting it in layman's terms.

PLease?

 

[ganja din]

The two great Steve Diver reports:


1) "Symbiotic Mycorrhizal Fungi: Quarterback of the Microbial Herd"
by Steve Diver
Fayetteville, Arkansas, ©2001-2005


2) "Controlled Microbial Composting and Humus Management: Luebke Compost"
by Steve Diver
Fayetteville, Arkansas, ©2004

phew...

 

[ganja din]

know thine audience.

I dig the papers, and would love to read them and hear about them at length in an appropriate PM, or at a colloquium where I am present to consume info in such a format. but we are conversational here. Take what you say and break it up into one or two points at a time. Links, not long quotes. Show you understanding by putting it in layman's terms.

PLease?

That is what I tried to do with my very first post, it was short and sweet and to the point, in laymen terms:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2737571&postcount=15

Even the post title says it all, I can't get more direct than that: "FWIW: Why I don't suggest using AM fungi when growing Cannabis spp.:"

I included the other info in the other posts for those who enjoy going deeper . And I response to others who have posted in this thread where I thought my input was helpful and constructive. I had to write something along those lines anyway for my own reference in my current studies. I figured you guys would really like to read it...

I didn't write any of that for the ivory tower types, but for people like us.

If people freely read, and comprehend the paper JayKush linked to, then they should have no problem reading what I wrote, its' much shorter! haha. Thorough I do use the correct, and at first more confusing, terminology, were the author of the paper used simplistic terms in some cases (ie. 'linking' of two separate AM fungi clones). It should be easier reading what I wrote considering that paper introduced many concepts which might have been unfamiliar.

OK, gotta go smoke a few bowls...I hope this was helpful. I think post #15 in this thread is what you are looking for.

 

[ganja din]

aint had a drink in 15 years but i'm about to get off the fkn wagon....are we tryin to manufacture a bomb or grow a plant?

Please read my first post in this thread. It is what you are looking for, I believe, straight to the point. The short post is titled:

FWIW: Why I don't suggest using AM fungi when growing Cannabis spp.:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2737571&postcount=15


HTH

 

[maryjohn]

no, your terminology is not correct, and volume does not equal understanding. You are obviously educated on some things but not others like the rest of us. So stick to the format for the sake of order, and give us the ganja din filet.

I have brought up two examples. please proceed, and give me your response.

Also, explain how I can get so much yield in squashes and MJ so far, using no P fertilization in one case and only a bit of bonemeal in the other, with enough side benefits to make it even more worthwhile. I know correlations aren't everything, but by your account what my plants have done for me is impossible.

 

[ganja din]

no, your terminology is not correct,

What terminology? And why do you seem so hostile? We are all friends here, I hope.

and volume does not equal understanding.

What are you implying? That I do not show a strong understanding of the material I presented and that I refuted (from the paper JauKush linked to). Please tell me where I might be wrong. That is a honest request. I would like to know if I made any errors so I can have the correct understating too. I am very open to constructive criticism.

You are obviously educated on some things but not others like the rest of us.

I never claimed as much or assumed as much. But let me put it this way, I am not 'new' here, or elsewhere, but my nic is. I have been offline for a long time...

So stick to the format for the sake of order, and give us the ganja din filet.

Huh? What format? lol. I am sorry you have seemly taken offense at something I wrote. I meant no offense. But I assume others do not feel the same way you do. Heck, I bet the author of the paper would appreciate my constructive review of his work, as would I if he did the same for me.

Why a filtet? My nic is a play on the title of a famous poem by Rudyard Kipling: "Gugna Din". Is "filet" in reference to the word "flayed" in one of the pomes' stanzas?

I have brought up two examples. please proceed, and give me your response.

I already did but you didn't like the answer. I told you soils and medias with organic sources of nutrients have available and non-available fractions of those nutrients, ex. P. And that inorganic P will bind to, and be stored for later use within, the media CEC as a cation. Be absorbed by the roots, consumed by microbes or flushed away with drench water. I told you the soil foodweb is the main source of bio-available organic nutrients, including P and N, often referred to as "microbial bio-fertilizers". I also mentioned how a healthy micro-herd with lots of bio-slime, enzymes, etc, along with the media CEC will hold a bit of the bio-available P and N. And that a majority of those minerals (N and P, etc) are often held within the bodies of microbes in the micro-herd and surrounding soils (ex. N from mobile Azotobacter spp.). Then the N and P (for example) which is held within the bodies of the microbes is released when the microbes are consumed. At that point the P is said to be 'available' to the plant as microbial bio-fertilizers. Besides all that, I mentioned how for example, soft rock phosphate has a fraction of P which is available (to microbes) immediately, as does bone meal...

Before we continue. Would you please do me a favor? Considering how much time and effort I put into this little project, would you please read one of the PDFs I uploaded? The one by David D. Douds, Ph.D. If not, I don't think our discussion can move forward.

A major reason I wrote all this is to debunk the whole industry of AM fungi with 'grow' stores for Cannabis growing. Think about how much money people like you and I spend on 'so-called' necessary AM inoculants. Multiply that by how many we would buy in a year, times all the people buying it, and it's a huge number. I thought it would be cool if people donated the money they would have spent on AM inocuatants for 6 months to organizations who support the legalizing, or at least decriminalization of medical cannabis.


There is little science to much of the 'wonder' products sold in grow stores online or retail, in my opinion. For example, do you know about a Dutch Master product called "Penetrator"? Well it's a sham! There is no way it can work the way DM says it can, and I have emailed them about this. I don't want to get into it now, but I have all the data and facts. For DM Penetator (Gold or the old version) do what it claims, the RH in the room MUST be over ~93%!!!! Take my word for it, or not: It's all about the salt they deiced to use to penetrate the leafs' two main 'blocks' to stop microbes, fluids, etc, from getting into the leaf ("aqueous pores" and "cuticle"). Think of it like the blood-brain barrier in humans.


Anyway, I also suggest you may want to buy the inexpensive, yet excellent book by Jeff Lowenfles and Wayne Lewis titled "Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soild Food Web" (copy write 2006; ISBN-13978-0-88192-777-1). I really like that book and Jeff is a great guy too! That book introduces the concepts of soil foodweb and microbial interactions resulting in "microbial bio-fertilizers". Which is one form of available organic P I wrote about, the kind immediately available to roots. The other form being the organic P which is immediately available to microbes.

Also, explain how I can get so much yield in squashes and MJ so far, using no P fertilization in one case and only a bit of bonemeal in the other, with enough side benefits to make it even more worthwhile. I know correlations aren't everything, but by your account what my plants have done for me is impossible.

Why impossible? I mentioned several times that many plant genus and species, especially annuals like Cannabis spp. and squash tend to be "faculative" mycorrhizal plants. Those types of plants prefer to achieve mycorrhiza associations (infection by AM fungi), but do not need to do so to survive, given sufficient 'available' soil phosphorus (organic or inorganic; some CEC bound cations are not available, they are stuck). Annuals tend to form less robust mycorrhiza associations and do just fine as long as there is sufficient inorganic or organic P. If it's organic P than it's generally attained in the form of microbial bio-fertilizers (eg. plant 'available' fractions of soil nutrients). Although 'available' P from soft rock phosphate has not been microbial processed, it is still considered 'available' (to microbes).

*I am confused by the second part or your question. Are you referring to growing squash and Cannabis spp. without mycorrhiza associations? If so then the key is the initial level of P fractions of the soil, the amount of microbial bio-fertilizers produced (which should be high if you have skillz), and the affinity of squash for P (which isn't high like Cannabis spp.).

Bone meal generally has around 10-20% P, with a good bit immediately available to microbes, so even a little can be a lot. Maybe you added low enough quantities as to not hinder the AM fungi, but high enough to produce vigorous Cannabis growth, but I highly doubt it considering how small concentrations of organic P can hinder AM fungi, much too low too support vigorous growth of Cannabis spp. Or you added too much bone meal and hindered the fungi. In that case it is other micobes to the rescue. Microbes (mainly bacteria) love bone meal and blood meal, they are great compost activators and great for getting the initial compost N/P ratio under 100:1. Both meals offer N and P, both offering immediately available N and P for the microbes.

That bit about the initial compost N/P ratio needing to be below 100:1 is important for the biological compost process, yet I have only read of it in a few obscure papers. I thought you and others would find that useful, along with the great 'intro' and indepth paper I uploaded. The one by Steve Diver about "Controlled Microbial Composting". Ideally when composting hot and fast, it's best achieve a C/N ratio of 25:1 to 35:1, and a N/P ratio of under 100:1. Haha, if you think I provided a lot of info about AM fungi you should see what I have for hot composting!

Good vibes

 

[maryjohn]

What terminology? And why do you seem so hostile? We are all friends here, I hope.


What are you implying? That I do not show a strong understanding of the material I presented and that I refuted (from the paper JauKush linked to). Please tell me where I might be wrong. That is a honest request. I would like to know if I made any errors so I can have the correct understating too. I am very open to constructive criticism.


I never claimed as much or assumed as much. But let me put it this way, I am not 'new' here, or elsewhere, but my nic is. I have been offline for a long time...


Huh? What format? lol. I am sorry you have seemly taken offense at something I wrote. I meant no offense. But I assume others do not feel the same way you do. Heck, I bet the author of the paper would appreciate my constructive review of his work, as would I if he did the same for me.

Why a filtet? My nic is a play on the title of a famous poem by Rudyard Kipling: "Gugna Din". Is "filet" in reference to the word "flayed" in one of the pomes' stanzas?




I already did but you didn't like the answer. I told you soils and medias with organic sources of nutrients have available and non-available fractions of those nutrients, ex. P. And that inorganic P will bind to, and be stored for later use within, the media CEC as a cation. Be absorbed by the roots, consumed by microbes or flushed away with drench water. I told you the soil foodweb is the main source of bio-available organic nutrients, including P and N, often referred to as "microbial bio-fertilizers". I also mentioned how a healthy micro-herd with lots of bio-slime, enzymes, etc, along with the media CEC will hold a bit of the bio-available P and N. And that a majority of those minerals (N and P, etc) are often held within the bodies of microbes in the micro-herd and surrounding soils (ex. N from mobile Azotobacter spp.). Then the N and P (for example) which is held within the bodies of the microbes is released when the microbes are consumed. At that point the P is said to be 'available' to the plant as microbial bio-fertilizers. Besides all that, I mentioned how for example, soft rock phosphate has a fraction of P which is available (to microbes) immediately, as does bone meal...

Before we continue. Would you please do me a favor? Considering how much time and effort I put into this little project, would you please read one of the PDFs I uploaded? The one by David D. Douds, Ph.D. If not, I don't think our discussion can move forward.

A major reason I wrote all this is to debunk the whole industry of AM fungi with 'grow' stores for Cannabis growing. Think about how much money people like you and I spend on 'so-called' necessary AM inoculants. Multiply that by how many we would buy in a year, times all the people buying it, and it's a huge number. I thought it would be cool if people donated the money they would have spent on AM inocuatants for 6 months to organizations who support the legalizing, or at least decriminalization of medical cannabis.


There is little science to much of the 'wonder' products sold in grow stores online or retail, in my opinion. For example, do you know about a Dutch Master product called "Penetrator"? Well it's a sham! There is no way it can work the way DM says it can, and I have emailed them about this. I don't want to get into it now, but I have all the data and facts. For DM Penetator (Gold or the old version) do what it claims, the RH in the room MUST be over ~93%!!!! Take my word for it, or not: It's all about the salt they deiced to use to penetrate the leafs' two main 'blocks' to stop microbes, fluids, etc, from getting into the leaf ("aqueous pores" and "cuticle"). Think of it like the blood-brain barrier in humans.


Anyway, I also suggest you may want to buy the inexpensive, yet excellent book by Jeff Lowenfles and Wayne Lewis titled "Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soild Food Web" (copy write 2006; ISBN-13978-0-88192-777-1). I really like that book and Jeff is a great guy too! That book introduces the concepts of soil foodweb and microbial interactions resulting in "microbial bio-fertilizers". Which is one form of available organic P I wrote about, the kind immediately available to roots. The other form being the organic P which is immediately available to microbes.



Why impossible? I mentioned several times that many plant genus and species, especially annuals like Cannabis spp. and squash tend to be "faculative" mycorrhizal plants. Those types of plants prefer to achieve mycorrhiza associations (infection by AM fungi), but do not need to do so to survive, given sufficient 'available' soil phosphorus (organic or inorganic; some CEC bound cations are not available, they are stuck). Annuals tend to form less robust mycorrhiza associations and do just fine as long as there is sufficient inorganic or organic P. If it's organic P than it's generally attained in the form of microbial bio-fertilizers (eg. plant 'available' fractions of soil nutrients). Although 'available' P from soft rock phosphate has not been microbial processed, it is still considered 'available' (to microbes).

*I am confused by the second part or your question. Are you referring to growing squash and Cannabis spp. without mycorrhiza associations? If so then the key is the initial level of P fractions of the soil, the amount of microbial bio-fertilizers produced (which should be high if you have skillz), and the affinity of squash for P (which isn't high like Cannabis spp.).

Bone meal generally has around 10-20% P, with a good bit immediately available to microbes, so even a little can be a lot. Maybe you added low enough quantities as to not hinder the AM fungi, but high enough to produce vigorous Cannabis growth, but I highly doubt it considering how small concentrations of organic P can hinder AM fungi, much too low too support vigorous growth of Cannabis spp. Or you added too much bone meal and hindered the fungi. In that case it is other micobes to the rescue. Microbes (mainly bacteria) love bone meal and blood meal, they are great compost activators and great for getting the initial compost N/P ratio under 100:1. Both meals offer N and P, both offering immediately available N and P for the microbes.

That bit about the initial compost N/P ratio needing to be below 100:1 is important for the biological compost process, yet I have only read of it in a few obscure papers. I thought you and others would find that useful, along with the great 'intro' and indepth paper I uploaded. The one by Steve Diver about "Controlled Microbial Composting". Ideally when composting hot and fast, it's best achieve a C/N ratio of 25:1 to 35:1, and a N/P ratio of under 100:1. Haha, if you think I provided a lot of info about AM fungi you should see what I have for hot composting!

Good vibes

you post so much, you miss entire messages, and you force others to skip yours. First off, pardon my condescension, it is one of my many character flaws. also missed some doses and am slightly manic. sensed I saw a similar soul.

no one is offended by you, or annoyed really. that kind of inflated sense of importance is one of my symptoms along with paranoid ideation. Read my early posts I was manic and worse than you. some nice folks let me know and I still have some detractors but by and large get along. we are very tolerant here of many views. just trying to help you actually speak, instead of drowning yourself out. You know what form is? Short story vs. novel vs. journal article, etc..? Well you are writing in the wrong form. Your output needs to conform if you want to inform. Formally or not, please reform and be formidably pro forma.

don't stress about it, there is no hostility, just a firm insistence that you listen a little as you speak. we push concepts along like a ball, and there is a flow to conversation that needs to be assisted not resisted. Your sisyphean style is certainly slogging a stone up a slope. Parsimony please.

re-read the post where I covered inorganic vs. organic P. You are very confused about basic terms or assuming things incorrectly. It's basic false equivalence between two homographs - organic gardening the technology and organic compound the scientific term. many organic gardeners use inorganic P (rock phosphate) - particularly ethical vegans. check your terms and broad concepts friend.

Get on a thread that discusses the definition of organic. start there - vonforne started a good one where he used the socratic method on me and some others to demonstrate his point. Don't be Thrasymachus.

I laid it out for you here.

my squashes, by the way, had no bone meal, and I have only built up one season of humus. beneath is clean fill, and these are deep rooted plants. that is why it does so well with corn. they survived very late transplant, which is supposed to be very difficult. I was careful but clumsy, and disturbed the roots quite a bit. they should have died based on common practice and personal experience before using bio tone (yup, I use simple biotone). they never even showed signs of stress or any necrosis.

safe conclusion: it is good to encourage the most prolific root fungus colonization possible, for the side benefits alone - and doing so has cost me nothing in P delivery to the plant. I was the only guy out of my neighbors with any winter squash to give away this year - and I grew hybrids bred for quirky color. this conclusion is conservative - I make no overblown claims of performance in flowering.

 

[jaykush]

haha. And I have about 60 other papers on AM fungi. All of them full text! If you ever want full text version of most any 'on-topic' paper I can get it for you for free. I have read your posts and like what you write.

will keep that in mind thanks.

I agree that paper you linked to is good, I wrote as much already. However, the goal of the paper is to teach consultants and those who are wish to be 'experts'. After reading it following your suggestion (thanks!), I thought I could offer some corrections. I think what I wrote isn't so crazy as is the volume. It seems you guys are having a knee jerk reaction (no offense) over the volume. Which is understandable. The material is written for people like us, not professional researchers, so I bet most people can read and comprehend what I wrote without much problem. I think the terms like "extraradical mycelium network" throws people off, but it's info that needs to be understood for a strong knowledge of AM fungi.

to me the goal of the paper is to get people to think of mycorrhizae as mycorrhizae. not just some "thing" you buy at the store that helps your plants grow. i highly doubt anyone becomes an expert on mycorrhizae from reading that lol. its not the volume that gets crazy really, there are plenty of reads here that are twice as long. its all the abbreviations, naming specific micro organisms, ratios, percentages, etc..... even though i can understand it. i bet 90% are just plain lost and i bet most only read the first few quotes before giving up. because when i teach people this stuff in person, they get lost big time, even people who should know these things (farmers and garden nursery people). the good thing is after reading that link, it will help people understand what your talking about. at least a little more hopefully.

take what he said for an example
"aint had a drink in 15 years but i'm about to get off the fkn wagon....are we tryin to manufacture a bomb or grow a plant? "
get my point?

oh yea can you put those uploaded articles in the Organic Fanatic Collective Sticky. good stuff like that goes in there so its not forever lost like this thread will be.

 

[OrganicMeds]

@ ganja din PLEASE keep posting mate as Im LOVING what I am learning from you, LOVE the links & PDF's also

 

[maryjohn]

@ ganja din PLEASE keep posting mate as Im LOVING what I am learning from you, LOVE the links & PDF's also

yes please keep posting. don't take the criticism as an invitation to leave.

 

[Microbeman]

Hey Gugna er Gunga er Ganja Din,

You make some very valid points and I actually did read your writings in lay terms.

MJ. I am familiar with this author and his intentions are pure and research quite thorough. He is also very open to correction. One question I have is why must cannabis growers have things explained simplistically?

Although I skimmed through a lot of what Mr. Din wrote and shall need to revisit some later, I do have a couple of brief comments.

1/ In your monologue you mentioned the necessity of high P inputs to produce large or heavy flower production in the cannabis/hemp plant. Once we started utilizing natural growing techniques we found this not to be the case at all. We never varied what little inputs we used from planting to death. I recently posted the indoor method used but hell if I know where it is now. Of course we also used a no-till let the soil stay alive method [which you mentioned] We did previously use the high P at flower and noticed no subsequent difference in flower size.

2/ As you know I'm currently involved in researching (literature) for some answers to fungal interactions. You have injected time consideration into the mix. Unfortunately I am yet no expert at the microscopic identification of fungal species. However, when rooting cuttings in sphagnum peat moss, I have seen roots emergent with fungi mycelia apparently radiating out from the roots. This definitely merits investigation. My top of head hypothesis is that the fungi association came from spores laying dormant in the peat. Besides the AM fungi potential infection of cannabis roots, I encourage that thought be given to the synergistic relationship with other fruiting and non-fruiting fungi, per se even ectomycorrhizal. As I mention in my growing method outline we had several varieties of mushrooms growing along with the plants, which I'm fairly certain delivered nutrients to the root systems.

Okay one more thing.

Concerning the discussion of P being available. Certainly, using the soft rock phosphate as our sequestered source of P, it is readily made available by microbial interaction, both fungal and bacterial/archaeal [sic] but one must not leave the cellular communication from the plant out of the equation.

Hey Mr. Din; Where do you get those $700 microscopes? <GRIN>

 

[VerdantGreen]

so, if ganga's research is correct, then in short i have the choice of feeding my plant with organic ferts at the expense of the myco, or starving my plant so as the myco arent compromised???

i only used it for the first time in this run i've just started - and i used my regular pretty rich organic soil - so it will be interesting to see if the myco succeeds

is it easy to tell with the naked eye if the myco have grown??

i always thought that myco was more important for smaller pots and i use very big pots - as big as i can fit into my cab- so i never thought it necessary. also i got great results without it. but it was an impulse buy when i saw it at the garden centre

V.