Can you grow with cold cathode computer lighting?

[StealthDragon]

I plan on running a 1 time veg and flower under approximately 50watts of ccfl in about 1/2 sq. foot pc grow. I plan on making a spectroscope as well to check the nm of each as best I can. We should compare brands.. From what I've read in reviews, the blues I'm getting are a lighter blue than people expected.

The ccfls will be replacing 2x 26w cfls. I just finished my pc build and I'm running some new strains through it atm, so I won't have much of a control group(cfl) but I'll do my best. If veg growth is promising, I'll probably run some separate veg tests with similar watts of cfl and different colors of ccfl.

Hopefully everything arrives quickly, then just a few minor mods to do after that and I should be up and running. Hopefully we'll be seeing some ccfl frost by xmas.

 

[ScrubNinja]

YEEEAAAAAHHH!!!! That's the way bro! That will kick serious ass! I reckon you'll get better results than cfl if you get the spectrums right. It would be cool if we had a rough ratio of colours to aim for. I don't keep up with the LED threads but I guess I better. I'm thinking CCFLs are like a poor man's LEDs.

One thing I've read a lot is that the red ones are hard to find in a true red colour - apparently a lot of them are more of a pink.

Oh and another important thing - I saw a page where it had some blown inverters, so take care where you mount them. I'm hoping to put mine in an actively ventilated metal case. These shouldn't be any more of a fire risk than any other light (just my opinion only) but I did read the inverters get hot so please be mindful

Edit: When I settle on my other lights, I'll probably have three different brands, so I'll be able to capture them all together in photos well.

Edit edit: Which brand did you go with, SD?

Edit edit edit: I see you can also get tubes that are two colours in one! And perhaps the most incredible - switchable tubes!!!

xPCgear's Switchable UV Ultra-Violet and Blue Cold Cathode Light is the Best of Both Worlds! Built into one CCFL, the switchable UV Ultra-Violet and Blue Cold Cathode Light allows you to switch between having the Super-Bright Blue Interior theme one second and then having the power of UV to make your UV-Sensitive Case Mods Glow!

 

[ScrubNinja]

Logisys 4-zone Multi-Mode Remote Control Molex Connector Kit

Specifications:

• Voltage: DC 12}10%Volt
• Current: MAX 12A MAX 3 A per channel
• Rated Power: MAX 144 Watts
• Receiving Range: 30M (98.40ft) No Obstacles Present
• Frequency: 315Mhz
• Temperature: -10 ~ 50C
• Dimension: 75 x 61 x 25mm

This would be all I need for a decent sized micro grow, right? It has the inverters included?

 

[canna cola]

Here is some info about spectrum's that I have found on this and other sites.
Sorry for not quoting the authors as I didn't save that info, I just copy/pasted this into a notepad file.

------------------------------------------------------------
270-300nm UVB (5 hours per day)
320 nm UVB
between 600 and 625nm
660 nm
670nm
680nm
Far Red 730 nm. to help reset the phytochrome ratio FR:R and trick your girls into flowering with extended light and shorter dark periods.
700-780nm

If studing resin, two more wavebands, UVB (280-320nm) and UVA (320-380nm) should be added.

380nm
470nm
590nm
615nm
640nm
660nm
730nm

SPECTRA
420 430 440 450 620 630 640 650 660 670 680 690 700 nm



Radiation: -----Newton metre: -----Effect on plants:
UV C----------- 0-280 < 300-------- Doesn't reach earth
UV B----------- 280-320 300-320--- Triggers Photomorfogenesis
UV A----------- 320-400------------- Triggers Photomorfogenesis
PAR Bleu ----- 400-500------------- Triggers photomorfogenesis and photosynthesis
PAR Green---- 500-600------------- Is reflected
PAR Red------- 600-700------------- Triggers Photomorfogenesis, photosynthesis, chlorofylsynthesis and photoperiod.
NIR far red---- 700-800------------- Triggers Photomorfogenesis and photoperiod
NIR closeby IR 700-3.000----------- Primarely heat
FIR far IR 3.000-100.000------------ Heat radiation

440nm, 470nm, 640nm, 660nm, 3000k white, and 740nm IR


The numbers I seen you post elsewhere are:
70% Red(625 NM- 685 NM)
16-18% Blue (440 NM - 450 NM)
12-14% White LEDs(green-yellow)

Be aware that is refered to percentage of PAR watts, not to the number of LEDs or power consuption. And anyway, that guideline is based on my own experience, but i still dont know if its the best distribution. I hope to have narrowed it after some monts more.

But i believe the best distribution is going to be between:

10-25% blue

5-25% green

55-70% red

Again, talking about PAR watts. Translating it to number of LEDs depends of what LEDs are going to be used and at what current.

----------------------------------------------------

I have to sort though it and work out what is most accurate.

The flexible wire type lights are called electroluminescent lights, from what I read years ago they weren't very efficient and produced a lot of heat as well as having a very short life, things may have changed since.

That tanning bed idea I had years ago (13-14 years) but my idea was to stand 2 half pipe type upper lids vertically with a hinge between them and a frame to hold them so I could grow a single plant 5-6' tall.
I thought it would cause too much horizontal growth and would need some CFLs at the top to encourage vertical growth.
Never did try it.


BTW I started using CFL about 17 years ago and was laughed at for it by everyone especially people working in hydro stores, they said it wouldn't even keep a seedling alive.


I built a prototype with 4x 21W CFL mounted vertically around the side and 1x 21W mounted horizontally in the top of a fibre drum about 50cm across and 1 metre tall, used a 240VAC 120mm PC style fan in the side, pot took up half the bottom height, grow space was only about 40cm x 40cm but it grew into a single solid cola 30cm x 30cm so dense you could not see through it with fan leaves bigger than my hands (I have big hands), sadly I removed the fan leaves and there was so much water flow inside the plant that each of the 4x cuts dripped about once per second and it got bud-rot and I lost about 10cm x 10cm of the core but I still managed to get about 1-1/2 Oz.
Used the base of the drum cut into 4 quarters and coated in mylar as a pot reflector sitting on top of the pot, also had mylar around the side and across the metal lid.

I considered it too much of a fire hazard and scrapped it after the first plant, it had served it's purpose in proving CFL work for growing though, much to the dismay of the bloke in the hydro store when I showed him a photo I had of it back then .

I recently discovered the High Pod in a thread here, which was nice*.


*gratuitous 'The Fast Show' quote.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Nice one dude - rock the funky beat. Around 90/91 my pal had a micro grow in a tiny speaker. The incandescent bulb took up most of the space, lol. The alfoil reflected the heat very well, dunno if there was any real light to reflect. Then he discovered an infa red heat lamp and thought that'd be a good idea. Turned into a great grower eventually.

Thanks a lot for that info, should help a lot. I found this as well, it's just one guy's findings

Root growth suffers if not enough red. Stretch happens not enough blue. Leaves are too small if too much red. Leaves are to big if too much blue. Use these indicators to adjust blue-to-red ratios.

At the moment from the little research I've done, I'm thinking

Veg

• 60% red
• 20% blue
• 20% white

Flower

• 80% red
• 20% blue

I'm not sure the green is useful? Growrooms have green lights so they can work in there at lights off without the plant being affected.

 

[canna cola]

Nice one dude - rock the funky beat. Around 90/91 my pal had a micro grow in a tiny speaker. The incandescent bulb took up most of the space, lol. The alfoil reflected the heat very well, dunno if there was any real light to reflect. Then he discovered an infa red heat lamp and thought that'd be a good idea. Turned into a great grower eventually.

Thanks a lot for that info, should help a lot. I found this as well, it's just one guy's findings



At the moment from the little research I've done, I'm thinking

Veg

• 60% red
• 20% blue
• 20% white

Flower

• 80% red
• 20% blue

I'm not sure the green is useful? Growrooms have green lights so they can work in there at lights off without the plant being affected.

Green is used by them but in much smaller amounts than red/blue/orange/yellow/cyan/magenta.
Green is used in much larger amounts than IR and UV though.

Probably the best spectrum charts I have found are in these attachments.

 

[canna cola]

And some more here.

 

[canna cola]

But wait, there's still more!

 

[ScrubNinja]

Nice one, brah. I will add some too, to explain how I'm going to approach this... I try to keep things simple cos I just want to decide and order these guys. First, lets get the colours out of the way. These seem to be the main colours available. I think there's oranges too perhaps, and pink but sheeeit, let's just go. The first pic is the uv model.

 

[StealthDragon]

Wow Canna! Huge thanks for all the info we just need to figure out which nm wavelengths we're gonna be running now I requested info from the manufacturer, we'll see what happens.

Scrub I think there's at least 2 versions of purple, one is "purple" and one is UV. I really need to find larger multi "ballasts" otherwise I'll be stuffing 6 of them into my pc. There is plenty of room...but what a mess.

I was looking at the light "wire" too but I think it uses a different tech. I couldn't find specifics on it really.

Here's what I'll be working with...nevermind I guess I need 50 posts first maybe? There's a few pics in my album though.

*edit

Anyone know if I can I use either of these? this one or this one ? I'm not sure what numbers I should be looking at, it gets confusing.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Aye, I had trouble finding the specs on the wires too. I contacted ebay guy about his inverters that handle "many" and he claims it will power 4 of the 1 metre long flexible ones as long as the power supply can handle it. I don't trust ebay guys one bit, lol.

I was under the impression that the purple IS the uv. If we look at the colour scale nm thingy, we can see that the purple ones fit in the uv range? That's how it works, innit?

Your case looks packed to the rafters, hehehe. Here is a pic to maybe help post pics - there should be no restriction if you can upload to your albums.



Click "Go Advanced" if you don't see these options. I use the lowest option.

No idea about the inverters you've found. My bro is coming around today so I'm hoping he may have some solutions for me.

 

[canna cola]

Thanks for the info ScrubNinja.

How is the output rated in the CCFLs?
I find references to outputs up to 40,000mcd (millicandela) but no mention of whether that is the total output or per cm of length of the tube nor at what distance it is measured.

I have one of the first high brightness green 5mm LEDs from 15 or more years ago that has 30,000mcd output so this makes the CCFLs look pathetic in comparison.

I haven't been able to find any spectrum charts for CCFLs either.

Now if I could get a working copy of Prosource or Lighttools my lighting design would kick into high gear.

 

[ScrubNinja]

No, thank you man, seriously!

Well, first of all I will mention I just placed my order for the second set of bulbs. You know, the set you buy after you do a bit of actual research! No doubt I will have to buy more too, haha, Nah, I reckon I've made a good selection, see what yer's reckon.

So I already have 2 x blue (Vantec Spectrum 30cm)

And I have 2 x white bulbs (Bitspower 30cm) turning up with those.

The order I just placed is:

1 x Bitspower 30cm - UV
8 x Bitspower 30cm - Red
2 x Bitspower 30cm - Blue
2 x Bitspower 10cm - Orange

I'll rearrange the ratios as the plants mature so not all those bulbs will be in action at once. This will also give me some spare inverters.

Here is a quick overview of the Bitspowers. These second kits I ordered are all (I think, judging by the price and lack of word "dual") single kits and I kind of expect them to only handle one bulb, but they say two there, so I dunno. It's all a bonus if I get anything extra. Anyway here are the specs:

Cold Cathode Light

Length : 300 mm
Voltage : 570 ± 40 V
Current : 5 mA
Power : 2.85 ± 0.30 W
Brightness : Over 18000 ± 3000 nt (cd/m2)
Lift Time : Over 15000 Hours

Inverter

Input Voltage : DC 12 V
Output Current : 5 mA
Support Output : Dual

They seem to be rated several different ways. I understand very little but all I know is that it's far removed from how we look at normal grow lamps and intensities. For example, in any particular pc ccfl kit, the 10cm will have the same rating as the 30cm. On the whole, all of them seem to be round about the same. I'm approaching it from a Wattage angle to keep it simple and there are higher wattage bulbs. There's also some nice logisys 15" bulbs. So my wattage will be around 35 to 40 I think. Will wait to see my hoarde of goodies before I call any shots. I'll definitely be aiming for a high GPW in fluoro terms. I really don't think it will be hard to come close to 1gpw after seeing that dudes results on MP.

In the end I bought these bulbs/brand because it was very hard trying to get what I needed, as usual. Most stores here have blues but no reds, or some other fuckaround, or prohibitive pricing. So we shall see how it goes. I'm feeling amped!



I have lots of this stuff, it measures 35cm x 35cm and I think I'll buy a small (tiny!) nightstand to pop it all in. You guys will flip yo wigz when you hear my reflector idea I just have to fine tune it but it's a pretty sweet idea. -no other comment for now-

Well, thanks for chiming in chaps, let me know your thoughts on how things are progressing, or any new info or updates. Peeeaaace!

 

[ScrubNinja]

HOLY CRAP! Check out this page guys!!!! It's the answer to nearly every question asked so far...I'm still reading it but it gives great rundowns on the various kits and the lumen issues etc. Awesome!

Cold cathodes

The most popular, and the brightest, of the decorative light technologies is the cold cathode fluorescent lamp (CCFL). CCFLs are available in a variety of cheerful colours, including near-ultraviolet. There are also white ones, which are used to light LCD panels.

CCFLs are bright, and they're quite cheap. The most commonly seen size is the 300mm (12 inch) type, but you can also get little 100 and 150mm units that're easier to fit into a PC.

CCFLs for decorative use always have a clear plastic protective tube around the thin and fragile glass tube that actually emits the light, and they also always have two supply wires that go in one end of the lamp assembly. One wire connects to the end of the tube right next to the wire entry point; the other one goes to the other end of the tube. Recent CCFL models have a super-thin wire going to the far end, which you can only see if you look very closely; older CCFLs have a thick and noticeable far-end wire, which casts a shadow in their output.

There are also some rather fancy phosphor coatings around these days, as we'll see. CCFLs tubes don't have to be just one colour.

CCFLs and the inverter/ballasts that they run from are now becoming mix-and-match items. Either all of these things are being made in the one factory, or multiple manufacturers have reached agreement on the plugs and sockets they're going to use. Which is nice.

This isn't to say that CCFLs don't often come with a piece of paper sternly warning you never to use one reseller's inverter with another reseller's tubes. It is, indeed, possible that a given inverter might not work right with a different tube. If you plug 100mm tubes into an inverter that expects 300mm ones, something bad may happen. But if you stick with the right length of tube, everything seems likely to work fine together.

The mix-and-match inverters that current CCFLs come with all have one twelve volt input connector, and two high voltage outputs. You can use them with one or two CCFLs, and the two tubes don't have to be the same colour. In dual-tube mode, the inverter won't run the tubes quite as brightly as it would if you connected only one tube, but the difference is very slight.

That last sentence makes me glad I bought single tube kits (I think).

 

[Owl Mirror]

According to teh internets, 5800 nits converts into 538.8 "lumen/square foot/steradian".

From what I understand, Marijuana plants need a minimum of 3000 lumens per sq ft to even grow.
A level of 10,000 lumens per sq ft is more appropriate for any worthwhile results so,
I don't see how 538.8 "lumen/square foot would be anything but a drain on your wallet.

Good Luck !

Full Sun - The amount of energy in sunlight striking the earth's surface at noon on a clear day (about 1,000 Watts per Square Meter).
Kilowatt (KW) - A standard unit of electrical power equal to 1000 watts.
Peak Sun Hours - The equivalent number of hours per day when solar radiation averages 1 KiloWatt per square meter. For example, 5 peak sun hours means that the energy received during total daylight hours equals the energy that would have been received had the solar radiation for 5 hours been 1 KiloWatt per square meter.

 

[StealthDragon]

canna: I haven't found any info on ccfl wavelengths yet..there's was a small discussion on riu a few years back, but it was all just speculation and didn't have any real info in it. I'm waiting to hear from my ccfl manufacturers.

scrub: I'll be using mostly logisys, looking at their ccfls is where I saw the purple and UV as separate tubes. I was thinking about adding a UV, but from some reviews I've read on ccfls, people are saying that they are getting UV response from some of the regular colored lights. I'll see what "glows" under my lights when I hook them up I guess. Also sony-erikson (sp) ccfls are made by logisys.

I'm thinking about adding some yellow possibly. I'll be using some white, but who knows what kind of "white" it is. Hopefully it's more of a warm white then a cool white, and not loaded with green light. A spectroscope should be able to give me a rough estimate though.

It looked to me like pretty much all the inverters have dual plugs for bulbs..even if they only come with one bulb. Probably just the retailers skimming a little off the top and selling one of the bulbs separately without an inverter, also it makes it easy for them to "upsale" to the dual light packages for only a few dollars more. just a guess though..

I ordered a few of these btw, from those links I provided above. Ones of the ones that I linked was 25$ and turned out to run only 2 bulbs, the ones I'm getting should run 6 bulbs and are only 5$!!! score!
If anyone is interested in these inverters, wait a few days. I'll hook them up as soon as I get them and make sure they work and compare them to the stock inverters. In other words I'll be the guinea pig

*tightens wig* let's hear that reflector idea! I got one too, but you first!

I'm getting pretty damn excited about this. I cant wait to see everyone's set ups...and I don't think this is gonna be anyone's "first grow" so we should be seeing some nice results!

 

[Owl Mirror]

Now if I could get a working copy of Prosource or Lighttools my lighting design would kick into high gear.

http://www.opticalres.com/lt/ltprodds_f.html

http://www.opticalres.com/student/student_license_f.html

 

[StealthDragon]

I wanted to add, I've been reading some stock market futures and quarterly projected sales type crap and well...here's my take on it all.

Currently ccfls are very popular in laptops and small electronics with back lit displays, but the LED technology is surpassing the ccfl technology and most manufacturers of these items are switching over to LED for better efficiency/technology. It's estimated that in the next few years, LEDs will take over ccfls for most applications. I believe if this is the case then now is the perfect time to be using these ccfls. If LEDs do indeed take over the market for small lighting then we won't be seeing the ccfls competing as much and we won't be seeing any advancements in ccfls, also availablity will decline which will raise prices....basicaly I think ccfls are about to be "left in the dust" by LEDs over the next couple years.

Well this is all just speculation from what I've been reading. So there's your '09 4th quarter projections for the future of ccfls and cannabis growing lol.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Owl, thanks for the input bro, but you have missed the point there which I did try to clarify. Nit to lumen conversion is just not something that is really possible and I would take that number lightly. For example, the grow that happened on MP, which I linked to, got .2GPW without even trying. Looks to me like he could have easily put 5 plants in and got somewhere approaching 1gpw. I don't sound crazy here do I? It looks ballparkish. So anyway, if we trust that lumen/nit conversion, there is no way the guy could get 0.2 gpw on 1/20th of "worthwhile results" lumens. So that lumen conversion is misleading.

StealthD, awesome find, man! And I agree, that article I linked says they're all 2 bulb inverters so I'm expecting that. Feels like we are breaking new ground here, man. Exciting!!! We should have a race and the first one to set up a cab gets to start the CCFL Club! Hahaha!

You twisted my arm on the reflector, I haven't refined the idea yet of course, but basically a hood made of (supported) plaster of paris type stuff, and you cut the VVVV or whatever in a piece of metal and scrape it lengthwise to form the many reflector profiles, perfectly moulded to the bulbs. You can't top that, but go ahead.

I agree on your other post about being good timing. It's interesting to note too that CCFL is very old technology, I believe.

Edit: Looks like they ship your inverter overseas so I'll be extra interested how you go.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Owl, thanks for the input bro, but you have missed the point there which I did try to clarify. Nit to lumen conversion is just not something that is really possible and I would take that number lightly.

Hi ScrubNinja, I suppose the best way to do a comparrison would be to light ONE bulb up in a completely dark room and use a light meter to measure it's total output.

You should use meters having the following features: cosine correction; filters or adjustments to match the human eye (CIE) response curve; multiple ranges; low battery indicator; and remote sensor with a "sample-and-hold" feature. If you need absolute accuracy under a given light source, then look into laboratory calibration of your meter for the particular light source you plan to measure.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_thevalue_good_light/

http://www.everybodysgardencenter.com/april/shopexd.asp?id=299