HerbNgardn
New member
This is a very interesting thread, and find it funny that you all are placing the blame on the STG media and not the HORIBLE performance and design of the CAP Ebb and Grow system, and your poor planning. YOU SHOULD NEVER TEST A NEW MEDIA ON SOMETHING YOU EXPECT TO PROFIT FROM! Now I can tell you that I have been testing all kinds of systems with STG lately, and the Ebb and Grow buckets are the only one's I had issues with. I will also tell you that I got the full 12 bucket ebb system for free, as well as the STG inserts to test, along with a few other systems. I can honestly say that after using the ebb for a total of 4 weeks, it ran OK.... and is now sitting in my garage not being used. The concept of the ebb is cool, and most other medias allow you to operate on par, but the system design and performance is CRAP! I spent an hour at the CAP/R&M booth at the San Francisco Max Yield expo last month, explaining my MANY design concerns I had with the CAP Ebb system. First of all... the buckets NEED to fully drain! Anyone who truly knows how to grow will agree that a puddle of stagnant water/nutes at the bottom of your bucket/ controller is NO BUENO! And if you read the instructions on your EBB system, it will clearly read: You can raise your buckets a total of 1" above where your controller sits, and if you do otherwise, this will create other problems. Second of all.... the timer only allows you to run 15 min. increments... If you speak to anyone at STG, or anyone who has been testing it, or even read their recommended growing practices on any of their pamphlets, you will see or find that STG wets instantly, or instantaneously.... which means that those 15 minute flood cycles is just not necessary, and probably drowning your plants! I explained to CAP/R&M that they if they truly want a system that would work with any media including STG inserts, they need a timer that allows 5min. increments! And 3rd of all... if you think that adding airstones and running 1/4 inch line all around your room is too much trouble to deal with, you might as well accept the poor results you are getting, because you are the one who is denying your plants of the air they need. Who in their right mind wants stagnant anything sitting in their buckets or res?? Why do you think sewage smells like it does? Because it's just sitting there! Yummy I bet my plants would love to slurp up a big glob of your nutes! I'm sorry you are having problems with your "cash" crop, but I would suggest growing tomatoes when trying a new media. I did! Now after explaining all these faults I found with their "free" system I received, their response was...... You have some VERY GOOD points that we have never thought of.....WOW! My suggestion to you all is... grow something that is not going to hurt your pocket while trying a new media. Then figure out what will work best for you. I have not had any problems in any other systems using STG, and most of the time you can build a better performing system yourself if you know the basic needs of a plant. Cannabis should grow easier than veggies, if you can grow veggies first, the rest will be cake. But you need to dial in your system before your media.
"First of all... the buckets NEED to fully drain"
Agreed, consequently the fact that STG drains at a flow velocity that is (according to their own sales rep) "imperceptible to the naked eye", likely makes this product completely incompatible with the e&f bucket system.
Also agree with your list of the e&f bucket system deficiencies (and could add to your list), yet despite them our results have been very satisfactory - 2lbs per light unmodified using hydroton.
Agreed, consequently the fact that STG drains at a flow velocity that is (according to their own sales rep) "imperceptible to the naked eye", likely makes this product completely incompatible with the e&f bucket system.
Also agree with your list of the e&f bucket system deficiencies (and could add to your list), yet despite them our results have been very satisfactory - 2lbs per light unmodified using hydroton.
Y
YosemiteSam
I would like to thank Cheeb for this effort. My opinion, anyone using Ebb and Grow was rooting for the STG to be great and had to be thinking about it. I fail to see any advantage of STG in other systems. Cheeb stepped up to the plate, took the risk and reported the results. Props.
HNg...first post and you attack Cheeb's effort. Shame on you. Wild guess might be that you work for STG and got your feelings hurt by the truth. Fix your product, make it what we all want it to be. Do that and your sales will be your reward...keep attacking honest people reporting the truth and become the butt of jokes...think not, talk with AN.
HNg...first post and you attack Cheeb's effort. Shame on you. Wild guess might be that you work for STG and got your feelings hurt by the truth. Fix your product, make it what we all want it to be. Do that and your sales will be your reward...keep attacking honest people reporting the truth and become the butt of jokes...think not, talk with AN.
Cheeb, tx for this thread & showing a pair!!!
Got 4 boxes of the inserts that i'm going to try next run though put a tester clone in one just to see- thought to hand water it. Clone dried up & died in 24 hours as top 3" went bone dry, though bottom 4" soaked. Just an fyi to others that might be transplanting... at the least, top-wet the cylinders much sooner than every 24 for first day or two to allow roots to travel down into the medium.
BTW, I use the starter cubes for my cuttings. Some mods i've incorporated are to remove the finer felt from the top of the cubes & to then orient them sideways such that the fibers are vertically oriented. This allows for them to drain much better/faster. I was thinking that STG should've made the cubes & inserts vertically oriented vs their horizontal of now. This would have the top half of the insert dry very fast so floodings/feedings would increase, though the bottom doesn't stay as saturated as long. Just an observation.
Although you might not be into doing this every single feed, try tipping the bucket for a few (or place a shim under one side of the bucket opposite the drain hole) which would allow for more solution to drain out each time. As you've noticed, even after a day since the feed, if you tilt it, solution drains out the bottom. A permanent lean to the drain hole may allow for much more of the solution to drain out. This is my best suggestion in hopes to not scrap the whole thing.
With that in mind, rather than lose all the effort invested thus far, why not just suck it up & run the air stones/pump for this run only?!? That would be my last ditch effort prior to a complete scrap. Peace brother & thank you once again for running the trial!
Got 4 boxes of the inserts that i'm going to try next run though put a tester clone in one just to see- thought to hand water it. Clone dried up & died in 24 hours as top 3" went bone dry, though bottom 4" soaked. Just an fyi to others that might be transplanting... at the least, top-wet the cylinders much sooner than every 24 for first day or two to allow roots to travel down into the medium.
BTW, I use the starter cubes for my cuttings. Some mods i've incorporated are to remove the finer felt from the top of the cubes & to then orient them sideways such that the fibers are vertically oriented. This allows for them to drain much better/faster. I was thinking that STG should've made the cubes & inserts vertically oriented vs their horizontal of now. This would have the top half of the insert dry very fast so floodings/feedings would increase, though the bottom doesn't stay as saturated as long. Just an observation.
Although you might not be into doing this every single feed, try tipping the bucket for a few (or place a shim under one side of the bucket opposite the drain hole) which would allow for more solution to drain out each time. As you've noticed, even after a day since the feed, if you tilt it, solution drains out the bottom. A permanent lean to the drain hole may allow for much more of the solution to drain out. This is my best suggestion in hopes to not scrap the whole thing.
With that in mind, rather than lose all the effort invested thus far, why not just suck it up & run the air stones/pump for this run only?!? That would be my last ditch effort prior to a complete scrap. Peace brother & thank you once again for running the trial!
HerbNgardn
New member
I am in no way trying to attack Cheeb or any others on this forum, however... I have gone through the same issues with STG and the ebb and grow system. Which is why I stated before, the ebb and grow bucket system is not in use in my garden at this time! I know exactly what is needed to remedy the situation, and has nothing to do with the STG media. If one of these manufacturers would update their ancient design, you would understand that STG being a new media, and surely one to become favored in the future with use, is only bringing out the negatives in this application. And if you are already getting 2 punds per light with use of other medias in this system, I can guarantee you will see more if you modify the ebb. It's a very simple design, and if fixed, would greatly improve any medias performance. STG works fine in my ebb and flow tables, DWC, and waterfarms, but in my opinion, the ebb and grow design is severely flawed. I am currentlly a tester for Urban Garden magazine, and have since recommended adding aeration to every single system I have tried. In my opinion, the only reason systems do not come with aeration kits included, is to make you spend extra money at the hydro stores if you really want performance and ease of use. What is your water/nutrient temperatures at Cheeb? And the only reason I ask is you seem to be trying everything else...(light cycles, nutrient concentration, flood cycles), seems a little unstable of an environment. if your room temp is raising to 85 when co2 is running, what is your nute temps getting to? I HATE THE EBB!
HerbNgardn
New member
I am currently experimenting with building a new mini flood table for cloning with an elevated screen within the table (air-pruning method). I have noticed that as long as the STG, or any other media is not sitting on a surface, even though flood trays are designed to allow drainage, it is not always achieved to max potential. If the ebb came with all the bells and whistles it needed to run like a champ, none of you would be buying it in the first place.
Mist
Member
Hmmmmm, I have been running DWC since it's beginning (1998)when there were only about 20 people in the country doing it and Highgrade (Augman back then on the CC forums), me, RounderX and a couple others were experimenting with all sorts of setups to see what the best results were. And then I ran that same system for 10 years with great success.
Now I use an Ebb&Gro system because I got tired of dealing with airpumps, airlines and airstones all the time and was looking for an equally effective system with lower maintenance.
And you know what, my results are just as good in the Ebb&Gro system as they were in the DWC buckets. And I am not running an airstone at each site, elevating my buckets or any other type of add-on or modification to the system.
So don't go spouting off about any system without an airstone isn't good. Just because you "test" systems for some magazine that has only put out 5 issues in the US and 9 issues in the UK doesn't make you some sort of expert in this field. Those are not high credentials. And attacking a tried and true system that many people use with great success in order to make the product you are endorsing look better or less to blame for issues with this system is immature at best.
I have over 30 years of growing experience and will continue to grow using hydroton for many years to come with great results without STG inserts. No worries here, LOL!
Now I use an Ebb&Gro system because I got tired of dealing with airpumps, airlines and airstones all the time and was looking for an equally effective system with lower maintenance.
And you know what, my results are just as good in the Ebb&Gro system as they were in the DWC buckets. And I am not running an airstone at each site, elevating my buckets or any other type of add-on or modification to the system.
So don't go spouting off about any system without an airstone isn't good. Just because you "test" systems for some magazine that has only put out 5 issues in the US and 9 issues in the UK doesn't make you some sort of expert in this field. Those are not high credentials. And attacking a tried and true system that many people use with great success in order to make the product you are endorsing look better or less to blame for issues with this system is immature at best.
I have over 30 years of growing experience and will continue to grow using hydroton for many years to come with great results without STG inserts. No worries here, LOL!
HerbNgardn
New member
That's all good Mist,
I never intended to brag about any credentials, and if that
s all people think online... that's your opinion. All I'm saying is, everything I have touched seems to perform better when aerated. Not trying to force any products on anyone. I just prefer to aerate, and see the results. Stagnation in my system does not interest me, and that's what I achieved in the ebb with no aeration added on my part. And yes, I would lift my inner buckets regardless of media. If it does not help you, or you are set to your ways, why bother trying anything new? Just stick to one strain, and one style. Why blog?
I never intended to brag about any credentials, and if that
s all people think online... that's your opinion. All I'm saying is, everything I have touched seems to perform better when aerated. Not trying to force any products on anyone. I just prefer to aerate, and see the results. Stagnation in my system does not interest me, and that's what I achieved in the ebb with no aeration added on my part. And yes, I would lift my inner buckets regardless of media. If it does not help you, or you are set to your ways, why bother trying anything new? Just stick to one strain, and one style. Why blog?
Mist
Member
Well the reason I was posting through this thread was that I was interested in a product that would allow me to not have to do all the prep that hydroton does and also be easier to dispose of afterward.
I was just disappointed that it doesn't seem to work with this system and that the general consensus from the people who are attached in some way to the STG product is that it is a crappy system and that is why their product doesn't work well with it. If I were running DWC in large scale again I would probably use their inserts for that. It looks to perform well with that type of system.
Oh yea, I do still run DWC for my mothers and some other plants that I have for breeding and am also setting up an Ebb and flow table for prestage vegging. So I AM open to other styles of growing.
So happy growing to you.
Mist
I was just disappointed that it doesn't seem to work with this system and that the general consensus from the people who are attached in some way to the STG product is that it is a crappy system and that is why their product doesn't work well with it. If I were running DWC in large scale again I would probably use their inserts for that. It looks to perform well with that type of system.
Oh yea, I do still run DWC for my mothers and some other plants that I have for breeding and am also setting up an Ebb and flow table for prestage vegging. So I AM open to other styles of growing.
So happy growing to you.
Mist
C
Cheeb
MRD9TIME,
Appreciate you stopping in this thread. I want to let you know that this was never an intention to take a stab at the STG company or product line. Although I couldn't seem to get my plants out of their overwatered.under oxygenated slump I do appreciate STG bringing a new medium to the market which hits on many NEEDS we are looking for in a medium. (inert, clean, easy to handle, ect).
I look forward to anyone else that will be giving the STG Ebb inserts a try. Please do blog it. I will be more then happy to give the product another try. Do not let my thread deter you from doing your own tests.. I'm no pro grower..I just couldnt get it dialed in my ebb buckets fast enough..time is money (electricity bills) and I've got to get this show on the road.
- - -
HerbNgardn,
I never put 100% blame on the STG inserts...merely posted my experience with it. Trust me.. I did not hope nor expect it to give me so many troubles. Aside from how hard it is to fully drain/clean the ebb&grow system I'm pulled many successful harvests (hydroton) from it - completely unmodded. I've grown in and loved DWC, but moved away from it due to Ebb&Grow being easier to setup, quieter, and much more tolerant to higher water temps. I get the same yeilds from the Ebb&Grow as I did in DWC without the airpumps & stones, chiller, tubing, and other extra stuff. The Ebb&Grow has let me focus more on what matters..plant training, environment, ect. The only real downside it heavy stone needing cleaned and not being able to see all that sexy root porn like in DWC.
EVERYONE using Ebb&Grows..please try the STG insert to see if it work FOR YOU! I hope it does, but in my struggle with it I found that I was too difficult to keep the roots from drowning. I did not want to modify my ebb&gro to accomodate this medium. My grow room is a bedroom and I have friends over - an unmodded ebb systems is nearly silent. I could not afford the additional noise from airstones.
- -
Peace
Cheeb
Appreciate you stopping in this thread. I want to let you know that this was never an intention to take a stab at the STG company or product line. Although I couldn't seem to get my plants out of their overwatered.under oxygenated slump I do appreciate STG bringing a new medium to the market which hits on many NEEDS we are looking for in a medium. (inert, clean, easy to handle, ect).
I look forward to anyone else that will be giving the STG Ebb inserts a try. Please do blog it. I will be more then happy to give the product another try. Do not let my thread deter you from doing your own tests.. I'm no pro grower..I just couldnt get it dialed in my ebb buckets fast enough..time is money (electricity bills) and I've got to get this show on the road.
- - -
HerbNgardn,
I never put 100% blame on the STG inserts...merely posted my experience with it. Trust me.. I did not hope nor expect it to give me so many troubles. Aside from how hard it is to fully drain/clean the ebb&grow system I'm pulled many successful harvests (hydroton) from it - completely unmodded. I've grown in and loved DWC, but moved away from it due to Ebb&Grow being easier to setup, quieter, and much more tolerant to higher water temps. I get the same yeilds from the Ebb&Grow as I did in DWC without the airpumps & stones, chiller, tubing, and other extra stuff. The Ebb&Grow has let me focus more on what matters..plant training, environment, ect. The only real downside it heavy stone needing cleaned and not being able to see all that sexy root porn like in DWC.
Please tell me how I planned poorly. I used a medium made for my ebb&gro. What planning would have been involved aside from planning to purchase and use STG. I DID NOT plan to mod my system by adding airpumps - no I did not. I DID NOT plan to adapt my system to accomodate a medium DESIGNED FOR MY SYSTEM. The poor planning would fall on the creators of the medium and its push to be used in the ebb&grow. I fail to see how my "poor planning" had anything to do with this. My room typically operates like a well oiled machine..I DID plan my room.
When did I have talk about this being a cash crop. I love this sport..and smaller grows just didnt feed my urge to grow! While I may make some profit off of this..the fruits of my labor goes to close friends at a very low price.
The only reason I tried these inserts was because they are MADE FOR the system I love - the ebb&grow. I chose the ebb&grow due to not having to have airpumps. Sucking mass amounts of air down into hydroton during the drain cycle provides plenty of air to the roots..more then any measily airpump would. I'm not denying my plants any air in hydroton. Flooding stones 15min every 3 to 4 hours gives me fat white fuzzy roots without even an airstone in the 55gal res. I do know the importance of airpumps in many systems. I own a $250+ Alita AL-60 airpump.. its awesome, I just dont see the need nor do I want to use it in this application.. I'll save it for DWC...in another place where bubble noise is of no concern.
who knows - never checked it. Another reason I use the Ebb&Grow. I've successfully grown in hot attics in hydroton w/ the Ebb with what had to be 80+ water temps and still a killer harvest.
EVERYONE using Ebb&Grows..please try the STG insert to see if it work FOR YOU! I hope it does, but in my struggle with it I found that I was too difficult to keep the roots from drowning. I did not want to modify my ebb&gro to accomodate this medium. My grow room is a bedroom and I have friends over - an unmodded ebb systems is nearly silent. I could not afford the additional noise from airstones.
- -
Peace
Cheeb
C
Cheeb
Me Again, and I AM trowing in the towel. Sorry folks, wish I could have took this one to a successful harvest with STG. STG - I'm sorry...I wish STG the best of luck. Look forward using the smaller cylinders in future dwc setups.
I decided to scrap my STG trial as I have coco plants to fill the space and dont want to mess with the system any longer. It depresses me to walk into a room of unhealthy plants day after day while I try to dial a medium..which may be undialable (lol) in my ebb&gro system.
I've removed the Ebb&Gro w/ STG inserts and tossed 3 large widows and the 25 smaller coco plants in the room. I AM going to harvest out of this room - just not in the STG inserts.
I'm going to be taking the show over to the COCO forum. Feel free to visit me over here:
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=136869
If you'd like to discuss STG inserts please PM me as I do not want to clog up that thread with STG talk...I want to enjoy the grow and the buds to come.
Happy Growing.
Peace
Cheeb
I decided to scrap my STG trial as I have coco plants to fill the space and dont want to mess with the system any longer. It depresses me to walk into a room of unhealthy plants day after day while I try to dial a medium..which may be undialable (lol) in my ebb&gro system.
I've removed the Ebb&Gro w/ STG inserts and tossed 3 large widows and the 25 smaller coco plants in the room. I AM going to harvest out of this room - just not in the STG inserts.
I'm going to be taking the show over to the COCO forum. Feel free to visit me over here:
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=136869
If you'd like to discuss STG inserts please PM me as I do not want to clog up that thread with STG talk...I want to enjoy the grow and the buds to come.
Happy Growing.
Peace
Cheeb
Mist
Member
I too am going to leave this thread alone.
Thank you Cheeb for give them a go. And I am sorry if I butted into your thread too much. THose guys just frustrated me and I can imagine that you should be the one that would be the most disappointed since you lost all that time and money on this test.
I will have to check out your other thread from now on.
Happy Growing.
Thank you Cheeb for give them a go. And I am sorry if I butted into your thread too much. THose guys just frustrated me and I can imagine that you should be the one that would be the most disappointed since you lost all that time and money on this test.
I will have to check out your other thread from now on.
Happy Growing.
Y
YosemiteSam
Damn Cheeb...that is one nice set up. Again, thank you for the effort and sorry about the results.
Guess I am going to have to stick Urban Gardener on my list of magazines not to listen to. Wonder if STG might be buying some advertising? Everyone I know with an Ebb and Grow is happy...cept for them damn little clay balls.
Guess I am going to have to stick Urban Gardener on my list of magazines not to listen to. Wonder if STG might be buying some advertising? Everyone I know with an Ebb and Grow is happy...cept for them damn little clay balls.
I never intended for any of my posts to be construed as inflammatory and i feel that i have been open and attentive to the concerns posted on this thread however I do take great umbrage with Mist indicating somehow my comments FRUSTRATED him. Why? Some competent growers were discussing some valid points and perceived pitfalls of a new media. Why is this frustrating. Is information and education scary to you, or is it the debate that surely follows. You call out everyones experience, yet you expect us to believe you have been growing for 30 years because you reference some names like RounderX. Wake up, anyone around the culture knew those cats. Not impressive. Bending (crimping) tops instead of topping is new? Have you ever travelled outside of the US? Bending and training has been around for at least 20 years in the mainstream european growing community. Secondly, I am not here to blindly drink the Kool-aid of a new media however in the interest of fairness I am curious as to what the other variables in this equation are. Let's assume the room has initial ambient temperature of of 75 f. From the pic we can see that the room is on the bottle (co2) so you need to add 10 F minimum to the total. That brings the total ambient temperature of the room to 85 F. We now need to look at whether the res is in the same room. Is it the standard black 55 gallon drum that CAP sends stock or was it switched out for a white one or better yet was it placed in a seperate room. Any grower worth their salt, soluble that is, knows better than to keep their res in the same room as the plants and if you have ever warn a black t-shirt on a sunny day you are familiar with how a black res will absorb light which is converted into heat. How much temperature was imparted to the solution merely a result of the color and placement of the res. As much as 8-10 degrees. Nevermind the pump influence of 5-7 F. If you assume that the scenario i outlined above is in fact reasonable than it is likely that the res temperature was actually approaching 100 F. Since, THC production ceases above 90 F i am a little uncomfortable shouldering all of the blame for a failed crop. I am sorry if my input angered anyone or put anyone off. To the rest of you, wishing you great yields and easy grows. Peace out....
I am on the fence with the STG products. They perform well when the plants have fully adapted to the medium and are in full flower.
However, getting to that point is the most difficult part. You have to treat the medium like rockwool. Overwatering will kill clones or stunt their growth.
Lastly, an organic-nutrient route will not work since you need to constantly battle algae growth.
However, getting to that point is the most difficult part. You have to treat the medium like rockwool. Overwatering will kill clones or stunt their growth.
Lastly, an organic-nutrient route will not work since you need to constantly battle algae growth.
Well I'm a non-talent dumbass who like to smoke his own weed and I LOVE BUCKETS yes there is some water left in the bottom after every flood,yes the hydroton is a major bitch and will be giving these things a try in the near future.
Don't know why there are haters of the buckets but I have used mine for over half a decade with the same rocks and the same pumps with not one single problem from the system itself.
But then again I am the luckiest bastard on the face of the Earth and all my weed is in fact homegrown so go figure.
My Penny
Mr.Wags
Don't know why there are haters of the buckets but I have used mine for over half a decade with the same rocks and the same pumps with not one single problem from the system itself.
But then again I am the luckiest bastard on the face of the Earth and all my weed is in fact homegrown so go figure.
My Penny
Mr.Wags
Yep my 4 stg boxes of 6 will sit for now im going wit the balls time is money and we arent getting paid to do research for products,plus stg got my money already.So till i hear or see different with stg they'll sit and im not raggin on stg i just need facts and i have to stick with the facts as of now which is the balls time after time have done me and others excellent besides cleaning and i'll suck that up with a grain of salt thru the nostrels.
It makes NO sense to try and blame factors that didn't change from the last successful grow in this exact system. It's not like this is his first run in a new room. The ONLY factor that changed, correct me if I'm wrong, is the medium. So why on earth would you try and blame the lackluster results on anything else? Res temps? Come on!
Cheeb was obviously excited about the possibilities of this new medium, and tried to make it work the best he could WITHOUT seriously modifying his already functional system. He wasn't able to make it work. He's not saying they are junk or worthless by any means. But coming on here trying to make excuses rather than offer solutions to the obvious problems experienced is a bad sign imo. I think I'll stay away until I see some successful grows with these STG inserts.
Cheeb was obviously excited about the possibilities of this new medium, and tried to make it work the best he could WITHOUT seriously modifying his already functional system. He wasn't able to make it work. He's not saying they are junk or worthless by any means. But coming on here trying to make excuses rather than offer solutions to the obvious problems experienced is a bad sign imo. I think I'll stay away until I see some successful grows with these STG inserts.
