Sure to Grow Inserts - Ebb&Gro Trial

[Hackk]

ok, here is my opinion. I run with ebbngrow 48 site, and I have done a LOT of thinking about the stg inserts. I think your girls are suffocating. The guys at my shop run with STG in their 24site system and they told me when they did their FIRST flood of the cycle they had to add approx. 10 gallons more to the res because thats how much the STG soaked up. Think about it, .4167 gallons of water remains in each pot. Your roots are drowning in 2-liter soda bottles worth of water.

So I would consider changing your system a bit, at least on a bucket or two to test. Maybe try to lay a thin layer of hydroton (I know, it defeats the purpose) on the bottom which should allow more air to hit the roots, and less water to be absorbed. I know its not possible so far into the rooting, so maybe an airstone...

I honestly love the idea of STG, but when I first saw it I preached that it should be the porous level of the water pump filter, because that will drain a lot better. I dont know how the guys at my grow shop are so pleased with the system, I cant imagine this being the perfect replacement, unless you HATE working with hydroton. Good luck my friend, you are the trailblazer we all needed.

 

[Vespatian]

Hackk, those are exactly my concerns as well. STG material holds a tremendous amount of water. A tremendous amount. They advertise 30 to 50 times its weight in retained liquid. How they can call it "free draining" is beyond me. The purpose of "ebb & flow" is for nutrients to "ebb" in and then "flow" out. With STG, I have no doubt about the former but high concerns about the latter.

 

[Mist]

I was think that if you put a bunch of 1/4" holes in the insert from top to bottom that it would allow more O2 to penetrate and maybe give more surface to the foam cells so that it would drain better. I really think that the larger surface area is the key to allowing these inserts to drain better. You would have to drill them carefully or the heat would melt the cells closed.

If the bottom were shaped like this /\/\/\/\/\/\ there would be more of the cells open to drain.
Or maybe this material is just made to hold onto any water that it touches and there is no good answer.

 

[ItsAllOver]

One thing that I wanted to mention that is irrelevant to the current issue being discussed is that if you want to make sure your blocks fill with roots is to air prune. It's done regularly with rockwool cubes, and these should work in the same way. The desire to more fully fill the blocks with roots was expressed in the first page of this thread, and I read the whole thing to see if anyone had chimed in about that.

- It requires you to set up the cubes in the beginning of veg in such a way that the entire bottom is exposed to air in between flood cycles so that any roots penetrating the very bottom will be dried out and air pruned, causing more lateral root growth and more evenly filling the block before switching to flower.
- Once your plants reach the desired size for flowering, they are then placed as you normally would right in the bottom of the tray (bucket in your case)
- Now I am not entirely sure how to apply this to buckets, as I have used it only in F&D tables. I'd imagine that you could fashion some "veg specific inner buckets" with almost the entire bottom cut out with a jigsaw so that the bottom of the STG blocks would hang on the lip that you leave in place, and then when you want to start flowering, you just switch out those buckets for the ones that you'd normally use.
- Just make sure that your drain cycle drains low enough that the bottom of the STG isn't under water during your air pruning veg stage.

As far as O2 availability, are you using air stones in the buckets? I think I remember seeing a pic with bubbles in the bottom. If this is the case, is it correct for me to assume that any air introduced there would be forced up through the medium on it's way out of the bucket or is there enough gap on the sides that it is allowed to bypass? If so, you should try to figure out a way to ensure that this air is forced to flow through the STG...

That's my , never having done E&F buckets like those...
Adios

 

[mrd9time]

Sure To Grow Tech Info

Sure To Grow Tech Info

Just wanted to pass on some tech info i have on STG.

1. STG is manufactured from food grade PETE1. This polymer is inert, pH neutral and sterile as a result of the manufacturing process. PETE1 is the safest, most RECYCLED plastic in the world and can also be cleanly (stack emission test result are available) burned in a biomass furnace with a thermal value similar to soft coal. Food Grade PETE1 is never and i repeat never manufactured with or around any BPA components. PETE1 is the same plastic that nearly all beverage bottles are made out of.

2. Total energy expenditure to manufacture and transport STG is the lowest of all commercially available media options with the exception of soil excavated from your backyard or compost pile.

3. STG weighs 1/3 to 1/8 as much as other media options. This means STG is exponentially cheaper and more environmentally friendly to ship.

4. STG is made in the US under a strict QA/QC program and employs otherwise out of work textile employees.

5. Plants that do not exceed 3-3.5' in total height should not need to be staked or trellised however if plants exceed that height staking or trellising maybe required especially if yield appears to be high.

6. STG DOES NOT WICK and relies on a proprietary structural design to hold water in matrix by means of weak physical forces (cohesion). This means if you are in a free draining system old stale nutrients will be displaced with every flood cycle. When saturated the water to air ratio within the matrix is 82/18.

If anyone on this thread has any other questions about this new media feel free to contact me and good luck with your grows.

 

[mrd9time]

On a related note, instead of elevating your buckets to ensure all of the standing water is removed why not just put a 2" spacer between the inner and outer bucket. This solution remedies a myriad of pitfalls associated with common bucket systems.

1. No more standing water in the bottom of you inner buckets

2. Ambient air exchange within the root zone.

3. Space provided by the spacer should leave enough of a gap between the inner and outer bucket to allow you to run an air line and stone to the bottom of each bucket. This not only suppresses anaerobic root borne pathogens but also increase the surface area interface of the water with the ambient air leading to increased evaporation and nearly 100% humidity within the micro-environment created by the spacer. Ideal for exponential root growth.

I may be missing something, but this appears to be a much simpler fix than elevating the buckets. Just a thought...

 

[mrd9time]

It is free draining because with the introduction of any external vector force (i.e. flood cycle) water previously contained in-situ is displaced. With most media it is common to flush with 3 times the volume of the media you are attempting to flush. With STG it is a 1 to 1. Secondly, STG slows the through flow velocity to a point that is imperceptible to the naked eye but i assure you it is draining. Take a piece of STG and saturate it. Place that piece of STG on a piece of screen over a bowl and observe what happens. I think if you are patient enough you will agree that STG is in fact free draining just not at a rate must growers are accustomed to.

 

[dongle69]

I'm not buying the hype of this stuff anymore.
I just realized what a pain this stuff really is.
It just holds too much water that is not evenly spread out.
It is nice to be able to just stick it in and pull it out (heehee), but that seems to be the only benefit.
I can't imagine trying to get rid of it after a large run.
I guess if you had a large shredder it would make it easier.
I can't imagine taking a huge load of pillows to the dump.

 

[Vespatian]

mrd9time,
You state that STG is "free draining" at a "flow velocity to a point that is imperceptible to the naked eye". That may meet the strict academicians definition, but understand that for the purposes of growing cannabis in e&f buckets - it don't cut the mustard. It's not a matter of being "patient" enough for STG to drain. The question becomes, is STG free draining enough for this particular situation. (If we are patient enough, the sun will explode and we will all be dead). Hydroton retains nowhere near the volume of water of STG. I believe you know this. I also believe you know the myriad potential problems when roots are essentially left to soak 24/7. This could be a serious issue for your product - a problem which is not resolved with individual airstones as a practical matter by those of us running many buckets.

Your suggestion of pvc spacers also leads me to believe you have previously become aware of this issue, yet I am skeptical of the efficacy of this solution as it does nothing to relieve the retained liquid in the STG material.

STG will ultimately succeed or fail based upon its ability to match grow characteristics and yields comparable to hydroton. That's the bottom line. Many of us sincerely hope that it succeeds.

 

[Madrus Rose]

since i use mainly 3-4gal pots with sunshine mix #4 ( a peat based product with aggragate) in an ebb/flow situation ...have always thought it would be nice to have a nice round coco-matt insert for the pot itself , say an 1 1/2 inches thick . Find with even coco the bottom 4" always stays too mucky so this would create a super aireated layer at the moist bottom level.

Of course Coco matts work well too once u master the art of getting the roots to fly thru them & down the table ..mini floods of only 2mins work well for this .

 

[mrd9time]

I appreciate your even handed well thought out reply. All too often these post are about ego not actually knowlege. Kudos to you. With that said you are correct the market will dictate whether or not this product is viable however i can assure many large site growers have successfully trialed this product and have seen above average to exceptional yields. A picture is worth a thousand words so a video should be exponential. If that is true than humor me and check this link out and honestly let me know what you think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4e04KjRhWQ

 

[mrd9time]

Here is the link to the entire channel if anyone is interested:http://www.youtube.com/user/SureToGrowers#play/uploads/1/CFDue7Oj9f8

 

[Mist]

Yes that is a nice root mass, but it was a DWC setup and not Ebb&Gro which is what we are working with on this thread. I could use the STG inserts, hydroton or even plastic balls and get the same results and have>




The issues here are that the insert retains too much liquid after the drain cycle. It doesn't matter if that liquid is exchanged for fresher liquid on each feed cycle. It is still too much retained liquid. Adding an airstone or a spacer isn't what we are looking for. We don't want to modify our system to accomodate this new product. In order for this product to be commercially successfull with Ebb&Gro/Multi-flow users it will have to be made to work with our systems not the other way around.
We already have mediums that work well and are trouble free.

Another issue is air circulation in the root system. The whole idea behind the Ebb&Gro type system is that when the nutrients drain down it draws air down into the root ball. If the buckets aren't draining all the way the air isn't getting down to the roots like it is supposed to.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

 

[dongle69]

It seems we have found the perfect medium if you don't want any roots to grow in it or have support.
Thanks mrd9time for trying to help.
Usually company reps get kicked off here pretty quick without paid advertisement.

 

[Cheeb]

wow lots of replies. quick pic. flushing 36hrs w/ RO 5.9pH . 18/6 lights. Pics make it look better then it is, but no real improvement. these things are in a slump.. havn't been flooded in over 12 hrs...going to flood once a day in a 18/6 timeframe and see if anything happens if I can get these cylinder to breath any at all. It may take a manual 24hr + period without flooding at all to get things to maybe dry out before going back on a 1 flood per 18hr.

i can assure many large site growers have successfully trialed this product and have seen above average to exceptional yields. A picture is worth a thousand words so

I'd love to see pictures of another ebb&gro cannabis grow using these inserts..I've yet to see any so I've put myself forth to test them..whether I'm good at this shit or not. Bring on the pics..your assurance ON people's success with these in an ebb&gro means nothing to me.

I may be missing something, but this appears to be a much simpler fix than elevating the buckets. Just a thought...

Running a bunch of 1/4" airlines all over this 5400w room doesnt sound much easier to me. call me crazy. I have an Alita AL-60 which could definately do the job well, but I went with the ebb and gro to get away from 1/4" tubing all over the place w/ airline manifolds, stones to replace, ect.. thanks, but I'll pass. thats not a fix..thats trying to fix a medium / system incompatability. Besides..my buckets are already raised.

- - -

I've been sitting in front of these things pondering what I could do as things ARE NOT getting better. I've never had a failed crop, but this may be my 1st.

Everyone nailed it..its lack of oxygen..plain and simple.

My buckets are raised the STG is not sitting in water, but forget about the bit of water in the bottom of the bucket..18hrs after a flood my cylinders are still floppy wet down low.

I'm sure adding mad oxygen and an airstone in each bucket (like STG videos show) would turn things around, but I'm not looking to mod the system..at that point I'll just go full blown DWC and eliminate the large cylinder. My ebb&gro w/ stone is a nearly silent machine - I'm not adding noisey airpumps with the complexity of 1/4 air tubing everywhere.

The beauty of the ebb&gro (w/ stones) is the ability to flood and drain often..each drain period sucking an enormous amount of air into the root zone (without any airpumps mind you). Because these STG cylinder hold so much water..I'm unable to flood. Because I'm not flooding and draining..no oxygen is getting sucked into the bucket.

I'm stuck with a large wet cylinder in a bucket...even @ 1 flood in 18hr.

Without airstones under the bucket its looking like a lose lose to me.

I'm super bummed, but thats the risk I took. I think STG went crazy with their extended product line really quick before strong testing was done..at least as far as the Ebb&Gro insert goes.

- -

This thread is not to knock Sure to Grow. Sorry if any bad press regarding these cylinders comes your way due to this post. Maybe its totally just my lack of skill w/ this product. If its the truth then STG success will prevail as others try these cylinders.
I believe STG has its place given the ability for the media to dry out.. maybe on a table where cubes could breath..or in a netpot dwc where its really not the media, but not an un-modified ebb&gro where the cylinder has no way of getting oxygen without adding air pumps, ect to the equation.

Anyone feel free to prove me otherwise...but I see myself back into stone / coco if things dont show any improvement within the next few

I'm no master grower by any means, but I've grown with much success in various sorts of swc & dwc..before falling for the ease and performance of an ebb&gro w/ stone. Coco has treated me very well too...

But to keep the everyone in a good mood how about some pics of the coco plants in the room that are thriving..and my little darkroom side experiment. Its flowering 3 coco plants now (day 1 bloom), but after this will be a MEDIUMLESS Ebb and Flow system using the good ole econo 3x3 gro-well insert. Stay tuned for that.

3 large white widows in a darkroom 110L


coco plants in 2 gal bags along side the STG trial.. these are my lifeline which may take on the whole room SHOULD I have to scrap the STG trial. I'm hoping I dont I have to.. I'm hoping these STGs will dry up at 1 flood per 18/6 day..but who knows.


- -

This thread will go on.. sink or swim..that is unless the STGs prove total failure to me..then I'll veg these 25 coco girls a little more to fill the room. This is several hundred dollar loss in electricity costs should I have to re-veg this room using the coco plants, but it was for the sake of experiment. Your welcome..lol, but feel free to try these STG cylinders yourself..maybe something smaller instead of 5400w. doh!

Bummed
cheeb

 

[Carboy]

Cheeb
As they say it's the pioneers that get the arrows in the back, but if we don't try new ideas we'll never know.
I think STG is trying to make this the be all end all of hydro media. That's a pretty tall order. I've used them w/ seed and cloning. Won't use it again for the seed. Dry at the top, wet at the bottom. Not what the youngsters need. Other products are better for me. Finally got off my ass and running a true side by side w/ the clones. The saturation may be the ticket --- or maybe not.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and take their 18/82 air/water ratio as true. Is that an ideal ratio for plants? More importantly, is that ideal for our plants? Or is it just adequate to keep a plant alive? Could STG change the ratio or is it fixed? Different ratios for different apps? I don't think there has been enough thought and research w/ the product to know. Let's say this is the greatest DWC media in the history of the world. That doesn't necessarily translate to anything else. If ya got a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Hate your trouble Cheeb but I sure appreciate you giving it a go. Hope it turns out well.

CB

 

[Seed Buyer]

Hey Cheeb....thanks for taking one for the team. Even though your crop is hurting you have saved me tons of loot and stress! F-the sure to grow inserts. Hydroton sucks but I guess that is the cost of doing business.

 

[Cheeb]

I'm not throwing in the towel just yet....because I'm already here - but you can bet your money that I'll be back into hydroton next round..

I'm currently on 18/6..flooding right when the lights come on and thats it.
I may totally unplug - let the cylinders nearly get bone dry - then resume once a day floodings.

I dont want to totally blame the STG inserts just yet....right now my plants aren't likeing 1 flood a day because they are ALREADY unhealthy due to drowning/lockout.

Perhaps perfectly healthy plants would drink up the one a day floods just fine.. who knows. I dont see why a healthy plant wouldn't be able to drink up the saturated cylinder..but I'm past that-- with unhealthy plants in a saturated plug.

I do believe that the STG videos show sucesss with those pepper plants in the cylinder because of their mods. The cylinders are raised up on PVC..giving them airflow around the sides of the insert..where-as my cylinders are tightly fitted in the bucket and wont dry. Their airstones are helping too. They've changed what the ebb&gro does..and might as well get rid of the inner bucket entirely if your going to use it like that.

I wonder if STG has the ability to reformulate the STG cylinder for the ebb&gro so that it doesnt hold much water at all. To get rid of Hydroton in this system we need a large easy to handle plug - that DOESN'T retain much water. I want something besides stones to hold my plants while I flood frequently with my nutrient solution. What do you say STG? How about an Ebb cylinder which repels water...allowing our roots to grow in the gaps much like how a cocotek block works.

cheeb

 

[mrd9time]

Thanks for the honest feedback

Thanks for the honest feedback

Guys,

I appreciate all of the honest feedback and criticisms and i sincerely apologize for the poor performance you experienced with STG. I will try and talk to some of the large scale growers we work with and see if they are comfortable posting some pics but i cant make any promises. Bottom line is this, we ran that same bucket system 9 full runs before adding the spacer mod and airstones and never had a problem with performance. Those mods were made to merely improve the performance of that system regardless of media. Many growers have already adopted the technology and i am confident many more will follow suit. I have been growing and teaching for a long time and i have yet to work with a better media regardless of system. Thanks for letting me interact with this thread, i know forums aren't fond of reps. I leave you with this, we have always been and always will be about the growers and we will continue to strive to produce a product that everyone is satisfied with. Good luck with your grow. Peace

 

[Vespatian]

I'm not giving up on this product, but I will be scaling back the number of buckets I dedicate to STG in my trial run. We will be giving this a shot in a location where we have multiple previous cycles with a single, well known strain and know exactly what to expect with hydroton, and will run only a single 1kw grid with STG next to many other hydroton canopies.

Might as well since I already own MANY of these inserts.