H3ad formula problems, week 1 flower

[XIII]

Hey everyone, I have 3kw worth of plants that are beginning to develop problems! What I am experiencing appears to be a phosphorus deficiency, just like the pic from Stitch's thread.


Some of the plants. Affecting mostly top leaves on plants.


An average leaf halfway affected. Looks like a pic I've seen before, "phoshorus and potassium lockout ph related".


Average affected plant


In addition the leaves are canoeing upwards toward the light.




Coco

How long has this problem been going on? 7 days
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) No
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Top feed drip 3x a day 30 seconds
What STRAIN are you growing? Honeybee
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Clone
What is the age of your plants? 1 month veg
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) 3 weeks
How tall are the plants? 30" or so
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Week 1 flower
What Technique are you using? Bushes
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) bagged bcuzz coco
What is the Water temperature? room
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? white
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) gh flora series
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? 6 mL per gallon micro, 9 mL per gallon bloom.
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless) 3x a day
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless) every watering
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? same formula
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) micro, bloom, ph'd
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? PPM meter broken
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 5.7-6.1
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Calibrated with fresh solution often
When was your last watering? today
What is your water temps? room temp
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) Mix every few days
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? Every few days as necessary
What size bulb are you using? 1000w HPS
What is the distance to the canopy? 24"
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 40*
What is the canopy temperature? Varies from 72-82
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) 77*
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) sealed room; oscillating fan
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? sealed room
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? no
Is your water HARD or SOFT? RO
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? RO
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? Azamax as a preventative measure 3 days ago
Are plant's infected with pest's No

This problem began about a week ago as canoeing. I (mis?)diagnosed this as 'praying for magnesium' and added epsom salts per h3ad's formula to the res at a rate of 1 tsp per 5 gallons nutrient solution.

I am wondering if the leaves canoeing could be a symptom of heat stress?

A few days later the canoeing was still there and I began to notice the edges of the leaves burning. They look very similar to the picture above for phosphorus deficiency. Is it possible to mistake heat damage for the picture above?

In addition the res was at 5.7 for a few days. I recently adjusted the pH to 6.1 hoping to increase manesium uptake if this is the problem. Any suggestions on what the pH should be ideally at this moment?

Also should I be using the epsom salts? I have heard that h3ad dropped them out of his formula but at the same time others say that adding magnesium to his formula is absolutely essential!

Is it possible that adding (unnecessary?) epsom salts caused this either?

Thanks for any help you guys can throw me!

-XIII

 

[Wait...What?]

your pH is way off.

did you rinse your coco before transplanting

when was the last time you calibrated your pH tester

how much time are you letting pass between the time you mix the nutrients and when you take the pH reading? how much time between mixing and application?

i dont think your pH is really where you think it is.

 

[MarquisBlack]

Lemme chime in here.. (XIII's partner)

The coco was not rinsed before transplant, but that was about a month ago. This problem sprung up about a week ago, right about the time we switched to 12/12.

The pH meter was calibrated right before pHing. Fresh calibration solution, etc.

Temps are at 83-84* w/no co2, but that problem will be solved today.

Personally, I think our temperature issues mimicked a mag deficiency, which inspired XIII to add epsom to the reservoir. At this point, the pH meter WAS out of calibration, and what we thought was a 5.8-5.9 reservoir, turned out to be 5.7, just OUTSIDE of magnesium uptake range. So I think what we're seeing now is the result of heat stress, and salt buildup in the coco.

Sound right to anyone?

 

[mrbiggs]

Sounds about right to me MarquisBlack(without seeing the plants), apart from the temp thing,only a guess but i recon that the signs you saw were the nute's locking up, then compounded by the epon, ph and spraying them with insecticide while there imune system was weak.also what size containers are they in? and for how long?
One more thing if you are using ro are you using the soft water micro ?
just trying to help, good luck.
peace

 

[XIII]

They are in 2 gallon pots and they have been for a few weeks now. No signs of rootbound and we flowered last time in .6 gallon pots with no rootbound!

Yes we're using RO water with the normal micro.

Nutes will be remixed today. What pH should we be sitting at ideally?

Temp issues will be fixed soon when we add another AC!

Actually we're gonna do that right now.

Any additional input, guys?

-XIII

 

[DoobieDuck]

XIII..sorry to hear..can you get some images of them and post um? DD

 

[XIII]

Whole room. Notice these were taken with a cell phone so there are lines along the pics. But you can tell the problem appears to be affecting the top old fan leaves first.


General plant pic. The fan leaves look just like this...:


Looks like a pic I've seen before, "phoshorus and potassium lockout ph related". Anyone think it looks like pH lockut, heat stress, salt buildup...?

Thanks for any help guys!

-XIII

Edit:

Installed another AC unit. Temps are sitting around 75* with the door closed.

Topped up reservoir with 2/3 strength formula and ph'd reservoir to 5.8.

 

[MarquisBlack]

Okay, so we've given a partial flush, cut the epsom, and we're still seeing problems. I don't think this is salt build up, but rather pH related.

There seems to be a bit of disagreement on proper pH, in coco specifically.

According to this chart, the fact that our pH is above 5.5 indicates that we are experiencing Phosphorus and Manganese Deficiency, both of which fit the bill visually.

We watered at 5.4/5.5 yesterday, lights have yet to come so I can't tell if it's progressed since. That will make or break whether I keep the pH at this level, probably.

But I've also seen two members that I trust (evlme2, Wait...What?) suggesting that during weeks 2 and 3 of flower it's best to raise the pH to 6.3, even 6.5.* It seems that a pH that high would definitely exacerbate our problems, so I'm skeptical about doing it.

*http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=131962

Any help's appreciated.

 

[HeD333]

Try and get your PH between 5.8 and 6.1. I've been using this range forever, and I got it from rez's the recipe thread. Calibrate your meter, and set the ph. Make sure your nutrient profile is correct- Though until your 100% on your PH, this goes on the back burner.

 

[whodi]

well 6ml micro mixed in your rez first THEN bloom at 6/9 ratio (which is heads formula) shouldnt be giving you any problems at all, with pH or anything. And heat shouldn't be causing that at 85 dgreees or less... shouldnt even have salt build up with heads formula unless you have shitty coco or didnt flush it... maybe not flushing it before you used it FINALLY built all the salt up. Flush all plants with 1/4 of heads formula pH adjusted to bout 6..

 

[XIII]

well 6ml micro mixed in your rez first THEN bloom at 6/9 ratio (which is heads formula) shouldnt be giving you any problems at all, with pH or anything. And heat shouldn't be causing that at 85 dgreees or less... shouldnt even have salt build up with heads formula unless you have shitty coco or didnt flush it... maybe not flushing it before you used it FINALLY built all the salt up. Flush all plants with 1/4 of heads formula pH adjusted to bout 6..

Yeah we've used h3ads formula before without problem. We know the drill, 6 mL per gallon GH flora micro, stir, then add 9 mL per gallon GH flora bloom, stir, pH to 5.8-6.1. We vegged these plants for 5+ weeks under that exact regimen and had zero problems. Its unfortunate that they happened immediately after starting flower.

Anyways we attempted to fix the problems by switching to Floranova bloom. Added 5mL per gallon. In addition we used half tap and half RO, putting us at a base of about 100 PPM hardness in lieu of using cal-mag.

We'll see if it helps. I think I see new growth but Marquis thinks I'm hallucinating.

 

[XIII]

So the problem continues... there may have been new growth but it hasn't gone away.

Flushed the medium well with 1/4 strength FloraNova Bloom.

 

[MynameStitch]

The affected growth will not return, your problem was a few things here.....

1)PPM meter broke
You cannot accurately know how much food you are giving them for one.

2) Your coco was not properly flushed before using it, this will give you problems through the whole grow if you did not flush it properly, you have to rinse coco really good to rid of the solutions.

3) if you had your TDS pen handy, you could have checked the run off to find out if your coco was properly flushed enough.

Your plant had a lockout and was using micronutrients from it's newer leaves, the tissue is tan, which tells me the plant sucked from reserves it had.

The damage is done and is not going to heal.

I too thought it was light damage, but it's not, notice how the interveins are not messed with, just the outer edges and some inner parts of the leaves, it's only on the tops of the plant, which high chance it's micronutrient related.

NPK ratios problems normally happen in the middle to lower region of the plant.

When plants go into flowering, for some reason I have no clue, but cannabis can have magneisum deficiency's on the top parts of the plant.......

Your pH, I have seen many grows grow perfect in 6.3 with no problems, it's the strain that has the temperament to pH ranges, this is why there is a range of 5.5 to 6.3

If I were you, I would get a new pen if you can, water your plants to get a TDS reading and depending on how high it is you could still have salts left in the coco.

I always tell peeps to wash there coco, even if it says rinsed on the package.

That pH chart black is using, is very conflicting.
The problem is, the tissue was not "killed off" by other means like too much nutrients.... the plant had stored micronutrients and used them, because there was not enough present, or because it was not able to absorb it properly, because of pH or too much built up salts.

Since you just flushed it, get the tds penand test run off next time you water..... The way the leaves are affected, looks like possible magnesium, never seen potassium or calcium affect the top part of the plant, UNLESS the top part of the plant was pruned and the middle of the plant would be the top part of the plant, then you could see it having that problem then, but in this situation, that looks more like a magnesium lockout, the tan tissue is dead tissue the plant left over after sucking it out of the leaves.

How often are they getting micronutrients?

 

[XIII]

Thanks for the help Stitch! +K

While most of the problem is focused on the top of the plant as you noticed I should mention that it is happening a little bit on the bottom parts too. It's affected older leaves in general, which would make sense that it's using its reserves.

We'll try to get the PPM meter up and running and check runoff and feed PPMs. If they're excessive, we'll give it a RO flush until it's clear of salts and then feed as regular.

We've been keeping the pH at 6.0 because that's where they have the least problems. We tried 5.5, but the leaves began to twist from low pH so we backed it up again.

I wondered if it was magnesium deficiency. They are fed with RO water and FloraNova Bloom. We have used 5mL per gallon lately. Is this enough magnesium in this mix or do we need to add Cal-Mag?

-XIII

 

[MynameStitch]

You got pictures of the lower leaves? I could not see them affected in the pictures you posted

Ya, that sounds about right with the pH level you have given
Yes, since your using RO water with 1 tsp of cal mag, that seems to be on borderline enough in the middle to not enough and just barely making the cut.

I would up the dosage to 2 tsp per gallon of water or 1 1/2 per gallon of water.

Some strains are magneisum hogs, big time, so adjusting it to the dosage I listed is ok, won't do ya any harm.

Or if you want, you can mix some tap/ro combo and depending on how hard your tap water is you can save on micro nutes; but you need a tds pen to do it that accurately.

Also can't do that trick if you have a water softner, cause sodium is toxic to the plants.
Causes a whole vascular breakdown.

Another way you can use nutes, if you know your water is hard, take a non teflon pot and put water in it, let it boil nearly to the bottom, let it cool a bit and what you have left over in the pan is micronutrients, calcium magnesium and more! This only works if your water is semi hard though. Then add some more water to the mixture and you got yourself some nice mixture of micronutes.

 

[MarquisBlack]

Stitch deserves a commission for all the grows he's undoubtedly saved. Thanks for the help everyone.

Tried adding Calmag, we'll let you know how everything looks when the lights come on.

 

[dr-dank]

"She" saves grows, bless her heart.

 

[XIII]

Sorry Stitch, can't take any more pics (no camera), but they looked the same as the other affected leaves on top. Interveinal chlorosis, leaf tips and margins turn yellow/white and eventually burn and feel crisp/glassy.

We think we have seen some improvement with the Cal-Mag!

We picked a "poster child" plant and picked off all affected leaves because its hard to tell if any damage is new or old from day-to-day, considering we have 40+ plants! We will know by this time tomorrow if the Cal-Mag has removed the problem completely. If it is still progressing we're gonna try 10mL per gallon Cal-Mag.

I had the TDS pen up and running for a few minutes... but I dropped it in our RO reservoir I was testing and it promptly died. We'll get one next grow!

Update posted tomorrow. Thanks everyone.

-XIII

 

[XIII]

Alright guys!

The poster child has no new damage!!

Thank you Stitch and everyone else who dropped in. I will post another update in a few days to make sure it's completely fixed but it's exponentially better.

Moral of the story is, if anyone has similar problems in coco, check the magnesium levels of your plant.

SOME PLANTS SUCH AS ONE OF MY STRAINS NEEDS NO ADDITIONAL CAL-MAG WITH FLORANOVA OR H3AD'S FORMULA IN COCO. OTHERS, HOWEVER, MAY NEED ADDITIONAL MAGNESIUM.

-XIII

 

[phattybudz]

It looks like I'm having the same problem, I was thinking it was a PH related phosphorous def. too...

Using re-used coco which I rinsed through with a bunch of tap water, h&g nutes at recommended rates. I'm using tap water...Maybe I should add some cal-mag too? My current run is fuct but the vegges are starting the same problems...

I try to keep my ph at 6.0 or so also...

Looks the same, no? It's weird because I've run h&g nutes before with the same ph and re-used coco, although my tap water is from a different source this time...if cal-mag will fix me up I'm game but I figured it might be a bit different with tap rather than R/O... I will know the ppm of my water later today and post back up. Very interested to see if they keep perking up XIII, lemme know!