should peat be sifted?

[VerdantGreen]

cc i think alfalfa may be a bit slower release than blood so i would use a half dose of both.

i mix guano into my soil and swear by the results - it is my main source of N and P

V.

 

[jaykush]

take a look at nature, and observe what ratio on c:n is mixed in the soil. None. Nature does not till. Things die, the roots decay below, and the rest - all that nitrogen rich material - decays away from the roots.

of course that's how nature does it, she mulches. so what about people who grow in a closet in some pots. not really a natural environment i would say, and does not have all the benefits a forest has in cycling nutrients. so people have to make up for what they cant benefit from. sometimes its just not the way nature does it.

The relevant amount of carbon is not relative to N in decomposing organic matter in a limited space, it is cumulative. Grass clipping are not pure N, for instance. All life forms we know of are carbon based. Even manure is more carbon componds than anything. That's why fresh grass mixed into your soil is not going to work unless you wait for it to compost. Thus I top dress grass clippings.

nothing we use in organic gardening is pure N(that's for chem growers and there ammonia fertilizers), but some things have a better C/N than others (grass clippings vs. sawdust ). ever heard of a green manure? are these people absolutely nuts because they mix fresh growing plants into the soil before planting to build organic matter? maybe you haven't noticed how people around here amend there soil and let it "cook" or "cure" before planting to avoid these simple problems when using soil amendments? some even have soil sitting and waiting for the next grow just so they don't even have to worry about it. the only one mixing raw plant matter into the soil that i know of while growing is jack, and his plants are in great health. why are his plants not starved of nitrogen?

The preferred fuel of many bacterial/archaeal [sic] species is N and therefore if they are expending their energy to degrading these materials, they can end up in competition with the plant for the available N. So rather than feeding your plant, the microbes can end up starving your plant. To my understanding (simplified) this is what a nitrogen lock-up is.

yup, pretty much, and the higher the material is in carbon compared to N, the longer it will take and the more N they will need to get the job done. simple as that.

 

[jaykush]

fellers. i've got alfalfa meal and blood meal for nitrogen in soil mix..should i use both or just one?....heres what i've got..10 gallon peat+ 5 gallon compost and manure already mixed......intend to add 30 tbsp dolomite lime,30 tbsp bone meal,15 tbsp kelp meal..nitrogen will be either blood or alfalfa meal...what do ye think?...i've got all this stuff out in the yard and puttin it in a wheelbarrow with no wheel..hehehe......aint had so much fun since the hogs ate my little sister..

you can use both, or just alfalfa, or just bone its up to you. they both provide almost the same things and both give lots of N to the plants down the line. if it was me i would amend the bone in the soil(even though i don't like bone meal for obvious reasons) and make a liquid tea from the alfalfa to top up the plants( alfalfa has a great growth hormone too called Triacontanol) or you can mix both in the soil, just go easy, you can always add more, but you cant take away if you add too much. which is why i said use the alfalfa tea as a N supplement to the bone in the soil.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

cc i think alfalfa may be a bit slower release than blood so i would use a half dose of both.

i mix guano into my soil and swear by the results - it is my main source of N and P

V.

seen some guano at the store and didnt get it.will eventually need for tea...right now,i want top get this basic soil mix right...got plants in every medium under the sun and it's very confusin.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

you can use both, or just alfalfa, or just bone its up to you. they both provide almost the same things and both give lots of N to the plants down the line. if it was me i would amend the bone in the soil(even though i don't like bone meal for obvious reasons) and make a liquid tea from the alfalfa to top up the plants( alfalfa has a great growth hormone too called Triacontanol) or you can mix both in the soil, just go easy, you can always add more, but you cant take away if you add too much. which is why i said use the alfalfa tea as a N supplement to the bone in the soil.

thanks j...blood meal it is in the soil....made that alfalfa tea like you said the other day and plants are still alive.YIPPPEE MICKEY..ps:when you said bone did you mean blood meal for n source?

 

[maryjohn]

Jay, green manure is not that simple. You don't turn it in right before planting.

 

[jaykush]

you grow it, you turn it in before it seeds, let it rot then plant a week or two later. its not that complicated. i do it in my garden and the plants don't show N robbing signs. but they do when i see fellow gardeners add super dry fresh wood mulch and scratch there heads.

thanks j...bone meal it is in the soil....made that alfalfa tea like you said the other day and plants are still alive.YIPPPEE MICKEY..ps:when you said bone did you mean blood meal for n source?

yea sorry, i dont use blood or bone and never really have other than maybe a select few times. i get the NPK mixed on the two.

got plants in every medium under the sun and it's very confusin.

you gotta keep it simple at first, over time you will get used to it and then you can fine tune your soil mixes with different amendments and materials. for now keep it basic and keep them all the same is my advice.

 

[maryjohn]

Jay, try that with your green manure in a pot and tell me how it goes. Alfalfa excepted it won't go well. Unless it's a really big pot holding less plant than it could.

Also, two weeks is enough for some but not others. Depends on cellulose content. And for those 2 weeks, n is being robbed. You can't avoid the rule, but different thing are faster or slower. Some things, like Alfalfa or kelp need very little n to break down. Others need a lot. Rather than looking at the n content, just think of the cellulose. Regardless of how much n is present, your microherd will break down the roughage. Our amendments are chosen for lack thereof.

Keep the rot out of your pot

compost for the most

 

[cosmiccowboy]

the deed is done..what a feelin of accomplishment....only thing that bugs me is i didnt have any worm castings..how effective are ewc as a top dressin,compared to being in the soil mix?...or foliar feedin with a ewc tea?

 

[jaykush]

the deed is done..what a feelin of accomplishment....only thing that bugs me is i didnt have any worm castings..how effective are ewc as a top dressin,compared to being in the soil mix?...or foliar feedin with a ewc tea?

both work great, when i top dress castings i get a 1 gallon bucket, throw a handfull of castings, put enough water to make a castings slurry, put that on the soil before you water your plants, when you water it will wash the goodies into the soil. you can also just make a castings tea and just water with that. like i said both work great. wormcastings are VERY forgiving.

Jay, try that with your green manure in a pot and tell me how it goes. Alfalfa excepted it won't go well. Unless it's a really big pot holding less plant than it could.

i already have, many times in many variations of soil and plants, so has jack theres even a thread here from a year or so ago about alfalfa cover crops or something like that. and im 99% sure he is still using the same soil. i have used plants including annual clover with Rhizobia bacteria, nettles, alfalfa, yarrow, wheatgrass, and a few of the other usual cover crops. you loose some of the benefits of a cover crop in pots though, so you dont reap the full reward. thats why i prefer to just amend with dried plant matter if i do so at all. i understand your want to no-till but have you ever tried using soil amendments before?

 

[maryjohn]

Tea is not for feeding.

You can top dress fresh stuff for fertilizer. And top dressing ewc can't hurt.

Don't put sawdust lol.

 

[maryjohn]

I did say alfalfa excepted but I would dry it first. I would never use nettle without composting. Clover would be fine. The exceptions prove the rule.

 

[jaykush]

a quick early spring cover crop of nettle has proven to be better than most of the other crops in my tests. nettle is a soil workhorse.

 

[maryjohn]

I contend it would be even better to just lay it down on top. They used to say this attracts pests. It's true, but if you play your cards right you keep it to acceptable losses.

Also true: I'm on a no or minimal dig kick, so I am biased.


A popular one around my parts is winter barley. I rip it out, pile it up, then spread it around and mix with compost which goes in under the mulch.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

I contend it would be even better to just lay it down on top. They used to say this attracts pests. It's true, but if you play your cards right you keep it to acceptable losses.

Also true: I'm on a no or minimal dig kick, so I am biased.


A popular one around my parts is winter barley. I rip it out, pile it up, then spread it around and mix with compost which goes in under the mulch.

maryjohn,are you high on marijuana?

 

[maryjohn]

Lol I sure am! Blue Burmese I started from bagseed and picked early for clarity. Had a toke before hopping on the train.

Maybe you are wondering how I get stuff under my mulch? Well it's a bit like the trick where the waiter pulls the tablecloth out from under the dishes, only I use a rake and there are no dishes, cloth, or waiter.

 

[Microbeman]

I have seen most farmers till green manure in the Fall. I've never seen anyone till it in then plant. Does that actually happen somewhere? I could see it if one is seeding a grass/alfalfa mix for fodder. (MAYBEEEE) Edit: sorry OR plant in Fall and till in Spring once it is dormant/dead

 

[cosmiccowboy]

Lol I sure am! Blue Burmese I started from bagseed and picked early for clarity. Had a toke before hopping on the train.

Maybe you are wondering how I get stuff under my mulch? Well it's a bit like the trick where the waiter pulls the tablecloth out from under the dishes, only I use a rake and there are no dishes, cloth, or waiter.

i can usually tell when somebodys got a buzz.

 

[jaykush]

I have seen most farmers till green manure in the Fall. I've never seen anyone till it in then plant. Does that actually happen somewhere? I could see it if one is seeding a grass/alfalfa mix for fodder. (MAYBEEEE) Edit: sorry OR plant in Fall and till in Spring once it is dormant/dead

planted i the fall, grown care free courtesy of the winter/spring rains, then about 2-3 weeks depending on weather each year before planting its mixed in with fresh compost and any other amendments needed. the plants are not dead or dormant when mixed in, the point is for everything to be fresh and full of life. and just to say this does not happen every single year. it rotates along with everything else.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Holy cow CC..

Pull in to check the air and you get full service!

You will have to show some before and after pictures!

I'm interested in how you do.



Jack