Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[hoosierdaddy]

I can't see the benefit from wanting to use a digital ballast with no more than a 150 bulb?
What a waste of money. A dig ballast for a 150 CMH is like $400? Not me.

 

[onegreenday]

i just fired a new CMH 400 and it was pure blue for 20 minutes.
neato color. even now 4 hrs it's got a blue tinge.
nice next to a hps
you can see the big diff in spectrum

i need some simple head cover to work under these bulbs a lot
the chrome dome can only take so many rays.

 

[niacinamide]

I can't see the benefit from wanting to use a digital ballast with no more than a 150 bulb?
What a waste of money. A dig ballast for a 150 CMH is like $400? Not me.

Electronic ballasts are expensive when new but if you buy them off eBay they are very cheap. For example, here's an Advance electronic ballast selling for $30. The e-vision ballasts should be compatible with Philips CDM bulbs but you should double check with Advance before purchasing it. You can also find electronic ballasts used sometimes in track lighting that were in retail locations so if you are aware of any store liquidations, you might have the chance to pick them up for cheap there as well.

As to their benefits, silent operation and lower amounts of heat make them good choices in micro applications where stealth is a concern. The price difference at retail isn't really worth the benefits but when they enter the used market electronic ballasts are nearlly the same price as their magnetic counterparts so the choice is easy to make.

 

[Inspired333]

Thanks for the reply hoosier and niacin.
I may just hop on this CMH train, as I don't think you can loose by trying these out. I mean you can even switch to an HPS bulb if you want, that's pretty awsome

I'll be going for the 250 Watt Phillips CMH. And I'd like some advice on ballasts.
First, will this 250 Watt ballast do? http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=HLBADILT02120&eq=&Tp=
I know, it says 'digital', but reading the info through - I think it's 'electronic' not digital. I know there's a difference, but don't know if "Electronic" is an acceptable ballast type for CMH light bulbs.

Guys, to be honest, something about 'coil & core' just seems a little outdated (not to offend anyone) and I've read bad things about their safety/heat, you know.

If somebody can give me the brand/manufacturer/link to the BEST 'coil & core' ballast available (make it easy for me, lol) I'd really appreciate it. (They're also called magnetic ballasts, correct?)

All information is much appreciated.

My soon to be built grow box/cab will be 3'x3'x56" high (6 feet tall minus 4 inches). Any thoughts on if 250 Watts would be sufficient for (1) 1 to 2 mothers plus 4 clones for veg chamber. Or (2) 4 plants in veg, or 4 plants in flower.

Peace,
Have a nice day guys.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

It won't work with the 250 CMH
A box is easy to put together.
http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=45719

 

[Inspired333]

Quick one for HoosierDaddy, and whoever else can input from experience or opinion;
I'll be tying to keep the watts down, below 400W if I can, on the veg box. Should I go with the "New Wave" T5's in a two 2 foot by 4 bulb setup (192 watts total, and use some rare earth phosphor T5s)?

Or, should I go with a 250 watt CMH bulb setup, with a good air cooled reflector?

I don't mind if opinions are one sided, in fact, that would make my decision that much easier. Is the 250 watt CMH a clear winner in the scenario, I read that the T5's can produce just as compact the 'internoding' with the right bulbs..?

Both would cost about the same to purchase. either two sets of T5's = ~$300.00

Or 250 watt CMH bulb = $50, Ballast = $140-180 (for a top quality one), reflector = $120 Totaling ~$310 - $350.

Bless me with the knowledge, please.

(also, any actual numbers, even ballpark, on how hot these CMH's get - in an inlosed area....minor league ballpark...?)

Thank you for any info you can provide me with.

INS.

 

[master shake]

How big of an area does a 400W cmh cover for growing purposes (and for flowering), about the same as HPS? And how close do you all put the bulb to the tops?

Thanks!

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

Do not buy used ballasts, A) the capacitor could be old and you wasted money B) it's old and bursts into flames. A is better than B but B is the scenario you want to avoid the most. If you must buy a used ballast buy a replacement capacitor and replace the old one for safety.

I would add to that, do not purchase old bulbs either.

 

[LeoRexTyrannus]

@Inspired

If I understand your statements correctly you want an all-in-one solution for both veg and flower correct?

I will continue with the assumption of a yes to the above.

192W of T5 may be fine for your applications, however you said you'd be adding more in the form of rare Earth phosphors bringing your wattage and costs even higher than your ball park. You do not need a top quality ballast, nor do you even need a reflector if you're doing a contained grow, you could opt for a vertical bulb, as for ballast I suggest you check out the Sun System offerings as they have very economical prices on magnetic core ballasts that can be used with CMH that are UL listed. Sun Leaves and Hydrofarm both have all-in-one 250W and 400W units, the Hydrofarm has an optional heat extractor accessory, these units contain the reflector and the ballast in the same unit so they're very heavy but if you have something secure to mount them on, they're a very attractive option.

Or as I mentioned you could acquire a 250W remote ballast and a vertical CMH bulb and hang it in the open area of your chamber, and then use a suitable vent fan to extract the heat without a reflector at all (an option I've thought about many times). True the lumen output on the vertical is lower, and so is the life but they're still superior to an equal wattage and orientated HPS or MH.

To give a little background, I currently use 4x 27W 2600K Spiral CFL's each with a 2300 lumen output per, for a total of 8900 lumens and a total of 108W of very PAR and PUR effcient blueish light perfect for veg, now quality UFO knockoffs are hitting the market at 200 USD, and I am thinking of replacing my CFL setup with one of those 90W units in the coming months as LED is completely and utterly the King of VEG at this point especially in a contained growing environment (many people are doing great things with flowering under LED and the research continues, though it isn't cost effective to replace HID with them and will not be for at least another year bare minimum sans a major breakthrough, though they're an extremely efficient supplement for flowering even at this point in the game).

So in the end at equal or near equal wattages CMH > CFL, though you could use CFL or LED as supplement and or side lighting and I have no doubt that would increase your yield (Perhaps using either or both to add more intensity to the blue spectra as CMH has the red on lockdown).

@Master Shake (love the name btw, Shakezula the mic rulah!)

To answer your question, the same area as an equal wattage HPS or MH, ala 250W = 3x3 as priamry, and 400W = 4x4 as primary.

Onto the heat issue, I believe they roughly generate the same amount of heat at equal wattage, the difference lies in the behavior of that heat in correlation with the bulb. Heat from MH or HPS is omnidirectional meaning as much IR will travel downwards as upwareds causing leaf burn, however on CMH the vast majority of the IR travels upwards when the bulb is orientated in a horizontal position (this may be the same for CMH in vertical but I have no hands on experience with that). This allows growers with unenclosed fixtures like mine (an affordable aluminum wing style reflector) to place the bulb within 6" of the canopy, effectively doubling lumens and intensity based on the inverse square law, and if one were to have a properly ventilated chamber or light fixture, I would say it's quite possible to put it well within 2" of the canopy without burning. That should give you a great idea of what you're dealing with, I hope it helps.

@General Public, LED is advancing, CFL is doing fine, and CMH is the King of HID, I would suggest that no one puts their eggs in one basket and stays open to numerous technologies and even the concept of hybrid systems.

CMH has the best PAR and PUR ratings of any HID, CFL has immensely efficient PAR and PUR ratings with lack of intensity, LED has the highest efficiency in PAR and PUR but at this time it's not cost effective because of its lower photons emission ratio's. They're all fine technologies, and I would suggest looking heavily into LED to replace vegetation stage growth as it's completely capable of this feat at this point in the game. I am not knocking any of these technologies, and I would be quite interested to see a hybrid grow using CMH, CFL and LED tech in a controlled cabinet type environment.

 

[down2grow]

Awesome thread! I think I'm sold on a 400w CMH! This guy is trying to sell my a used Sun System 400w kit(ballast, reflector and his HPS) for $75, but I just read your post about used gear. He states the ballast has been running for about 3000 hrs, is that alot? Should I buy this kit or go brand new all the way? How much will it cost for a decent capacitor? Is it easy to replace? I'm a total noob doing a rubbermaid CFL grow and looking to upgrade and don't know much about electrical stuff.
D2G

 

[down2grow]

Forgot to mention that I'm on a budget! Haha. So my main goal is to start an 8 plant perpetual grow so that I can harvest once a week. They will be vegged for four weeks under CFLs for now or maybe 220w of Pl-l's(Hydro-Soil got me interested in those) if I can afford them. I remember Simba suggesting that you should only veg for around 2 weeks then flower. Which would be better yield wise? Four weeks under CFL/Pl-l or 2 weeks under CMH? They will start in one gallons and finish in 3 gallons when I transplant to flower. As for flower I have two plans and will be using a similar dresser as Hoosiers(4ft wide, 2 deep and 6 tall) or whatever somebody suggest. The cab will be cooled down with a S&P TD200x.

Plan one will be using the Sun System if I buy and buy a 400w horizontal bulb. I will put a few girls in until I dial down my perpetual. One in and one out per week.

Plan 2 will be to buy a vertical(protected) and just hang it in the middle with a fan blowing on it at all times. The DIY carbon filter will be right above to suck out all the hot air. So here is what I want to do. Build two shelves or use stands on each side to have a Stadium cab. Weeks 1-4 will be on the bottom and weeks 5-8 will be on the sides. I might bring down week 8 to fatten up the top colas. My question is. Will the vetical give off enough light for the girls underneath? If so, I will most likely go with plan B.

So which would be better? I'm looking to get 1.5 to 2 zips.

D2G

 

[down2grow]

1.5-2 zips per plant! stupid computer is down and I'm on my phone. These post took foorrevvver!!!

 

[tommyboi_420]

Ya...you can still use the sockets (mogul) and as long as the ballasts fit inside them, you can use the housings as well. But if temps are going to be a concern, I think you would be better off isolating the ballasts from the grow.

thanks for the info messn'n'gommin',and yea im deff gonna keep the ballasts out of the grow room. im still not sure if i'll gut out my old 227v mh highbays or just make a nice kickass d.i.y housing with muffinfans...anyone in here done a d.i.y. duel ballasts box with 2 12v muffin fans wired into it???...ok time to smoke and think

 

[habeeb]

How big of an area does a 400W cmh cover for growing purposes (and for flowering), about the same as HPS? And how close do you all put the bulb to the tops?

Thanks!

shoot for 70 watts a square foot, 50 is fine

as close as possible, do the back hand test, if fine for hand fine for plants, if to hot, to hot for plants..

 

[Megas]

Would one of these work in a Sun System 2- 250w HPS-High Pressure Sodium Enclosed Ballast Mini System? Also where do you even buy these bulbs I tried googling them at that was useless. The grow shop by me doesn't carry them either.

 

[habeeb]

Megas, get them at :http://advancedtechlighting.com/

sure, as long as its a ballast designed for HPS, not MH, make sure don't get a electronic ballast for 250-400 , you want a core and coil HPS ballast.

 

[Inspired333]

Thanks alot LeoRex.
To be clearer, I meant tube fluorescents in that New Wave reflector system, and that I would be swapping out some of the bulbs that are already in it of some Rare Earth Phosphor bulbs - not adding additional fixtures for them. So 192 Watts max/total.
Also, I am going to have two cabinets (veg & flower) and am not looking for a "solve all" solution for lighting.
Just wanted to know if people thought 192 watts of tube fluorescents compared/competed with 250 CMH bulb..?
I'm thinking, for the veg cabinet, the most I'll have in there at one time is two mothers and 4veg plants (clones) in there.

@ LeoRex
I know this is a CMH thread, just wanted to mention that there are two LED solutions I'd love to get, one is a 350 watt rectangular fixture from prosourceworldwide (dot com), they have a large amount of (what appear to be completely legit & honest) reviews on them aswell.
down-side, it's $1200.

 

[habeeb]

^I have the rare earth floros, they work but the CMH would be better then the floro's as the floros are gonna put out as much heat

as I have stated, do not get LED's yet, unless your messing around and already have a grow space..

go with the CMH and if you don't like you can put in a HPS bulb in the ballast

 

[Inspired333]

Thanks habeeb, I think I might just go with the 250 watt CMH for my veg room. I still have plenty of time to decide on wattage/light type for my flower room - but I'll no doubt be wanting 350 - 400 watts there. From what I've read, a 400 CMH would be awsome to flower with.
Thanks everyone, for the suggestions.

 

[LJB]

as far as the 10k Bulbs
i like them cause they increse the Blue to red ratio to Naturaly tell the plant to hurry up Death is coming Soon.. IE autumn/winter

In autumn/winter light move to being more reddish.

These quotes go back to January 2008 and I see that gramsci.antonio is no longer posting here, but simba still is.

simba, in nature it is increasingly longer nights that signal to plants (annual and perennial) and animals alike that winter is on the way, not the increasing domination of total daylight by sunrise and sunset (i.e. more red).

***

After reading through most of this thread (55 pages), I'm curious how a 2 x 400w stacked CMH vertical setup would produce up against a 1 x 400w MH and 1 400w HPS stacked vertical setup. Has this been done and the results mentioned publicly?

At least with a vertical setup, one can be assured that both bulbs are equidistant to the plants, unlike in a horizontal setup with a MH and HPS hung side by side.