Polymer crystals

[bushmasta]

About to order some for my out this year. Have been reading several threads for a few wks now but haven't found which size crystals work the best for our purposes. Fine, Medium, Small, or Coarse? This is the link I found in Julian's Massive OD thread is it the best priced?
http://www.water-keep.com/shop/prod...id=63&osCsid=80407e0054e5e2a3a88e260fd5e936d9
I know they aren't organic but Julian said he preferred using these because the organic expanded 3x more

 

[Wolff]

They are the best priced I have found. Different sizes can be used for different applications. Such as working the finer ones into the top soil surrounding the plant. I would just stock up on the medium sized ones they are the most versatile imo.

 

[Julian]

Fine, Medium, Small, or Coarse? This is the link I found in Julian's Massive OD thread is it the best priced?
http://www.water-keep.com/shop/prod...id=63&osCsid=80407e0054e5e2a3a88e260fd5e936d9

I know they aren't organic but Julian said he preferred using these because the organic expanded 3x more

Actually that is/was not the case......

I have no idea as to the comparison of rates of expansion, and assume both are fairly similar but for me the preferences were related to cost and availability....

The above is a good source, reasonably priced, but not organic.

Zeba is organic, starch (potato I believe) based, but not readily available in larger quantities and actually came out to several times the cost of others.

Soil Moist is another but I only found it readily available in smaller quantities, and most of the time it was with nutes already added.

My recommendation upon obtaining for the first time is to always expand a small amount to "get a feel" for it, and what one is working with which assists with usage and determining amounts to utilize within ones situation and mixes if used in a dry mix.

(I have always used far more than recommended dose. The true problems lie with initial addition and expansion....after such, too much seems to be less of an issue)

That is my overview and opinion.

(It should also be clear I have used all above firsthand and 1-2 others)

Edit: I have also used every grade/size listed, and prefer medium and coarse, which are the 2 largest for holes. I have used fine and small but for some reason preferred the larger.Since same product, amount could be varied with larger or smaller, so size actually a moot point in the end and possible personal preference relating to workability.....

 

[bushmasta]

Awesome thanks Julian! I thought you had disappeared. I live in Appalachian territory in TN so I am confident rainfall here will be sufficient with these crystals prob 3 tbsps per hole for large auger holes. I will try a tablespoon in a gallon of water like you suggested in outdoor thread. Prob go with the source listed before since you say they are a good source. I only plan to do about 600 right now so I figure I would pick up 50 lbs of crystals may do more late season mins if I get bored. Have a handful of spots with a few acres of woods to plant in just gotta get a compass so I can plant some under trees on west side for low fall sun.

My best wishes out to you Julian you have helped me in ways you can only imagine. I have only started growing grass since last year I did an out and since then I have done a couple ins here and there so this year I am taking this to a much different level that would not have been possible without your kind soul sharing the knowledge that you have also been blessed with. Just wanted to let you know how much you mean and will always mean to me thanks bro!

Hey quick question I have been trying to think in Julians mind for awhile while looking at some of my potential spots. Say there is this apartment complex with acres of woods next to its parking lot how would you dig holes there with early to mid season plants? I do not think I could drag an auger out of a car that drops me off in a parking lot and hop into the woods. It would make life so much easier but from how big they are I don't know about someone seeing me hop into the woods with it. How manageable would one of those folding shovels be for 200 8 inch wide 4 ft deep holes for a single man? Already know carrying clones in grocery bags with dry nute mix in bags also would be easy but getting the tools for digging and possibly a little soil mix to mix with native would be a lil more noticable.

 

[BELOW FRIGID]

I have used Zeba and the polymers. Zeba claims the water is easier to get to and the fact they are almost organic might be a plus. Zeba seems to only last one season outdoors where the crystals will still be there the next season.

 

[stonedsurfer]

just discovered these really good for those who dont want to lug in water and as for the polymers some can re absorb water which isnt so good if you get a drought period because if there touching your plants roots they will suck the water out of the plant and can cause some damage but these cartons just release slow over time check it out...http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=4002

 

[lordbudly]

sooo what would be a stellar ratio for crystal to soil ratio?

 

[Bass Akwards]

Have a handful of spots with a few acres of woods to plant in just gotta get a compass so I can plant some under trees on west side for low fall sun.

A compass isn't a bad idea, but under a tree just won't do, even if it's planted on the South side, where it actually belongs. ( In the Northern hemisphere ) Watch out for apartment dwellers with binoculars!

How manageable would one of those folding shovels be for 200 8 inch wide 4 ft deep holes for a single man?

For a single man? .... Easy, ... as long as you're Superman!

Please, get a grip!

Four feet deep? In undisturbed soil?

Try for two, and feel lucky if you get that far.

If you really want a lot of small, deep, holes and can't use a post-hole digger, then get a "factory reconditioned" 18 volt portable drill. Find one with two Lithium batteries, and add an 18 in. x 1.25 in. garden auger attachment. Drill eight holes close together, then dig out the rest with a hand trowel. It will all fit in a regular backpack, along with supplies. Use both hands. The torque is enough to wreck your wrist when it gets stuck.

Plop 1/3 gallon of swollen crystals in the bottom, fill with grow-mix & local soil, and surround with a thick layer of barbershop hair as mulch. Without that, and/or pepper spray on the leaves, the bunnies will have you for lunch.

Good Luck

 

[lordbudly]

bass ackwards, just at the bottom? One third of a gallon completely swollen up? i thought more along the lines of a cup for each gallon of soil evenly mixed or whatever amount,is 3x3x5 holes to much? I got the time to dig that much and the workout seems worth it

 

[Bass Akwards]

Lower your sights a bit ... .

Lower your sights a bit ... .

Just for starters, how much effort are you willing to make, for how long, with absolutely No guarantee of getting Anything at the end of the season? Does that calculation include the chance of being arrested?

Think long and hard before you commit to a guerilla grow.

Then, lower your sights ... that is, don't do more than you have to do. Better to have several smaller patches, with 3-5 plants in each, than a monster patch that stands out like a sore thumb and requires loads of upkeep.

You don't need more than 2 gallons of pre-mix per plant, maximum. When it's mixed with the native soil, in a 4 gallon sized hole, that will leave room for a seasons worth of roots. Remember, roots will grow beyond the hole if they have the time and moisture, and restricted roots cause increased flowering response.

If the crystals are not at the bottom, ( where they're needed during the hottest part of the season ), the roots will use them up top, and never grow as deep or as large. Consider using a very small camo tarp or a heavy leaf bag to catch rain water in a flat, circular, oil-changing container.

You're looking for 5 - 7 ounces per low, bushy, branchy, plant, ... if it goes well. A 3x3x5 hole is overkill, don't waste your time and energy.

The more you haul in, the longer it will take for the trail to disappear ... and by late summer any trail is easy to follow. Take multiple routes in and out, and throw fertilizer on the bent grass and weeds.

If this is your first, take it slow and easy.

Slow and careful, and if at all possible, by yourself.

Instead of being dropped off by car, try a bike and hide it in the bush.

Don't tell anyone, anyone at all.

Good luck.

 

[antimatter]

The question is how will they perform, June gets a fair amount of rainfall but july and august are the hot months with not so much rain, will they be able to keep plants the plants alive without watering in normally dry mountain soils, you know those spots im talking about there perfect but as soon as july comes around they would fry.

 

[Guest]

Buy a pack of disposable diapers. They hold and absorb much more water than any of the crystals and are much cheaper. Cut the diaper into 2" sqares: in the soil they will become marble sized water retainers. We discovered this while investigating watering methods.

 

[Julian]

Actually, they're up to 4x the cost, hold the same amount of water, triple ones work , and create more environmental waste.....

It's merely reinventing what is already readily known, proven and available.

 

[antimatter]

I got enough crystals to do all my spots, I was reading this one thread examining the amount of rainfall on the east coast compared to the west coast and me living in the west we don't get much rainfall in july and august only like 1.6" per month, generally the soil is moist enough from snow melt for may/june but july/august are hottt than September gets cold and rainy. I am thinking about keeping plants close enough to the road so I can just drive up with a reservoir, run a hose and water each spot at night, that's if the polymers don't cut it for middle of july/august.

 

[Julian]

Don't forget the overview and all the aspects....

1.6"?....

1.6" a month one thing...

Nice hole, nice start, good prep, watered or in with rains and 1.6" later?...

Certainly not a bad situation.....

One cannot also underestimate how long earlier moisture remains and carries over.

I recall a season with a single heavy rainfall late season. Late Aug/1st week Sept., early/ier flower, several days of heavy rains......was more than enough to carry them through to finish (and especially nice end product due to lack of rains later in flower)....

Crystals but one mere aspect in the process....add or subtract any single one and it affects all the others throughout the season......ie: Smaller hole, more rain, larger hole, less rain, put in without enough moisture, and so on and so on......

Target is to perform all tasks......ie: Every little bit helps and directly measured in product/$.

 

[antimatter]

Don't forget the overview and all the aspects....

1.6"?....

1.6" a month one thing...

Nice hole, nice start, good prep, watered or in with rains and 1.6" later?...

Certainly not a bad situation.....

One cannot also underestimate how long earlier moisture remains and carries over.

I recall a season with a single heavy rainfall late season. Late Aug/1st week Sept., early/ier flower, several days of heavy rains......was more than enough to carry them through to finish (and especially nice end product due to lack of rains later in flower)....

Crystals but one mere aspect in the process....add or subtract any single one and it affects all the others throughout the season......ie: Smaller hole, more rain, larger hole, less rain, put in without enough moisture, and so on and so on......

Target is to perform all tasks......ie: Every little bit helps and directly measured in product/$.

Im running autos in 5x5 patches of 25, probably 10-20 spots with multiple patches, 5x5 areas tilled with dolomite, granular fertilizer and 2+ lbs of polymers all mixed in. The soil will be moist when planted rain or no rain about 6 foot deep snow melted on my spots and all went into the ground which should give the polymers some water to drink up before hand, basically seeds are gonna be started end of may in peat pellets and planted june 7th, gives me a week to get all spots prepped for planting just waiting on an order currently.

 

[Guest]

Actually... considerable research here has led us to understand that Julian's conclusions and statements about diapers may be inaccurate, but not as much as his inferrence that one can have achieve real benefit from the use of soil amendments such as water crystals. We have concuded just the opposite: any effort to address moisture availabilty through the use of soil ammendments to be ineffective and misguided. We've tested lots of different aproaches and our conclusion is that there are no circumstances where the use of water crystals is of any benefit over and above the use of plain compost or other common water retention materials. Frankly, we found the use of soil ammendments of any kind is not an effective approach to assisting with moisture availability. They can be of some benefit but only at the margins and where other measures such as hole liners have been installed. If the problem can be addressed with the simple use of water crystals, you wouldn't keep seeing this question pop up.

We tested the diaper chunks because in practicallity, the crystals simply weren't effective due to the fact that water had to be delivered to the entire planting hole for the crystals to be of any benefit. We found the diaper chunks to be more effective than the crystals, but only at a minimal level. The problem with diapers and crystals is that it is nearly impossible to saturate the entire planting hole when serious dry conditions persist and even if you can accomplish that state, the surrounding dry soil/ hot sun has a much stonger pull than the water crystals ability to hold the moisture. They cannot retain moisture under those conditions.. Those of us faced with major watering problems know that any effort that involves pouring water on the surface around the plant to be futile and ineffective . Real impact is only seen when the water is released under the surface of the soil, directly to the root area.

Due to drought and major crop loss, a small group of outsiders, all with 30 years plus of outdoor growing experience, began to study the issue in earnest. We began by studying all of the previous work done by BACKCOUNTRY and others and then moved forward. .His work kept us from having to recreate the wheel. His self watering pot designs led us to the understanding that the water must be delivered to the root area to be of any consequence and that watering efforts based on pouring water on the soil surface as futile. With that concept in mind, Ive buried a 1 gallon plastic jug or any other in ground reservoir with leach holes in it, down to its neck/ soil level, about a foot away from the plant which releases the water poured into it underground where the roots are. This cost much less is far more effective than any materials, including water crystals, that can be added to the soil. Water retaining materials such as crystals can only retain water if they can get water, and that is where the problems begin with crystals.

1. Deliver the water to the roots
2. Strains that have evolved in semi arid climates such as certain afghani strains perform much better in arid conditions than varities with significant amounts of tropical sativa in their makeup. Most cannabis plants begin to wilt when moisture levels drop below minimums and continue to wilt until death occurs. Some afghani strains and perhaps others initially wilt, but then seem to go into a condition of stasis for several weeks or until rain returns. These strains will die as well if water isn't provided, but handle the dry periods much better. Maple leaf indica is such a strain. With many strains, even if you can provide enough water for the plant to remain "unwilted", what you cant see is that the plant doesnt have the necessary moisture to thrive and mature properly. By the time the grower realizes his unwilted plants arent really growing and maturing, it's too late.

BACKCOUNTRY has extensive knowledge regaurding water provision, and has been dealing with and studying watering issues for years. He has basically disected every aspect involving cannabis watering. Search his threads and they will provide you with basic principle and info that anyone facing these problems needs to consider. His work was invaluable to us and at every step, we would go back to read his findings to see if he had already addressed the issues. Most often he had..

The "Gorilla Water Collar" thread will provide you with a method of keeping the plants watered without having to purchase crystals or any other ineffective soil ammendment

Providing moisture to inground cannabis in dry conditions is a difficult and complicated issue There may be of some benefit from using crystals in containers, but inground they are only a small part, along with mulch and others...

 

[medicine farmer]

i think water crystals are very climate based as far as effectiveness. where i live the summer is marked by extremem heat and dryness, with a huge (sometimes 2 or 3 inches) downpour about every 4-6 weeks in june, july, aug, and sept. this downpour makes crystals work for me as i can go a long time after a great downpour before i need to water again.

 

[Julian]

Actually... considerable research here has led us to understand that Julian's conclusions and statements about diapers may be inaccurate, but not as much as his inferrence that one can have achieve real benefit from the use of soil amendments such as water crystals.

We have concuded just the opposite: any effort to address moisture availabilty through the use of soil ammendments to be ineffective and misguided.

We've tested lots of different aproaches and our conclusion is that there are no circumstances where the use of water crystals is of any benefit over and above the use of plain compost or other common water retention materials.

We tested the diaper chunks because in practicallity, the crystals simply weren't effective due to the fact that water had to be delivered to the entire planting hole for the crystals to be of any benefit.

I found no need to address more than the above, which was too much in itself.

The reader can draw their own conclusions from all information presented....it's quite interesting.

Please feel free to share the plant counts, variety of locations and all similar data used during said "considerable research".....(you know, instead of simply stating such)

Frankly, I think the above post in it's entirety is full of contradictions and forgetting even the most basic points.

My reply would simply be for anyone to do a search using "US Department of Agriculture Forest Service+polymer crystals".

If the problem can be addressed with the simple use of water crystals, you wouldn't keep seeing this question pop up

The questions which arise are from people who have not utilized them, or know their regional and seasonal conditions, or have firm ideas of requirements.

Rarely will one who has have any questions about effectiveness.

 

[lunatick]

a friend of mine told me the same,water polymers will be most effective in a container grow(no surrounding soil),he suggested that ill try a 1:6 ratio with them.

maybe its possible to place some crystals inside a 2"/3" pipe(with holes in the sides)in proximity to the plant roots.(an adaptation to the water collar)it should help a bit limiting the soil area that comes in contact with the crystals and could slow down/adjust the water release rate from the original water collar as well.