Possible P DEf in Coco newb needs help

[nuggiespl]

How long has this problem been going on? 10-30-08
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Hand watering, Coco, 50 coco, 25 light warrior, 25 pert.
What STRAIN are you growing? HS, JR
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Clone
What is the age of your plants? 10-16-08 I got 10-27-08
How tall are the plants?6-8 inches
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? VEG
What Technique are you using? Soiless
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) clones were in rockwool
What is the Water temperature? tap temp on cold
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? to scared to look
What Nutrient's are you using? How much of each if using multiple? Bio Grow 10ml per gallon
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? none
What is the pH of the "Tank"?
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Ph meter yes
When was your last watering? 15 ml about 12 hrs after flushed
What is your water temps? room temp
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)NA
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
What size bulb are you using? 2-600
What is the distance to the canopy? 18 in
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 55
What is the canopy temperature? 71
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)71 pretty constant
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) I'm running a sealed room with 375cfm cooling 2 growzillas, sucks from underneath shed through lights and out attic
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? NO
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Tap Phd 5.8
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? yes neem oil 10-27 neemoil, now have Hot shot no pest strips
Are plant's infected with pest's No

I think that I have a phosphate df, I got the rooted clones on 10-27 they were in rockwool, cut out and transplanted into square ½ gallon pots, I didn’t feed enough I gave 1 ml of bio grow per gallon with 1 ml superthrive per gallon. Watered till I saw run off, also mixed neem oil with half strength dutchmasters pen, and Dutchmaster Grow and lightly sprayed before I took them in the garden.
I then waited until 10-30 and watered until I saw run off with only ½ strength superthrive per gallon, and also foliar fed again this time with penetrator, liquid light, foiltec grow, I noticed what I thought P def around Thursday and maybe N but that could have been yellowing form over watering 10-30.
I have also discovered I’m probably watering to much at once. So Friday 10-31 I mixed up Bio Grow 10ml per gallon ph 5.8 and fed twice 30ml each time. Was going to feed twice today but am concered about the water they definitely look over watered, I have also noticed some powder mildew starting to take place, So I reduced my humidity from 55 to 45. And was thinking of moving them into the flower room under 2 600 hps as high as I could get them which is about 6 ft with light movers on 18-6 spaced out more than being cramped up, I also thought this would help dry the medium up, and also give the plant more useable energy, I have a Co2 Gen with a fuzzy set 12hr at 800ppm and constant fans blowing to move the air around.

I now think that when i originally transplanted I didn't give the right ph I gave them like 6.3 ish. I should have given them 5.8 due to thats what they were given, and I am using the same style of growing they used. So not only did i cause the transplant shock I also added a PH shock. But I do think I have a P def, slow growth, purple stems, and due to they were using sensi bloom, which has high p.

I Flushed 3 trays last night with 1 gallon of 5.8, and and the run off was like 6.2 ish. So I proally had lock out. Sorry this is a revised version of another post on another forum, which I didn't get any help, so sorry if I'm all over the place.

I was also thinking about mixing like 5mlof Bio Bloom with per gallon, to increase the phosphate, low nit, high phoshate should encourage root growth right. Bio bloom is 1.1-2.5-2, Bio Grow is 1.8-.1-6.6. Please Help Any thoughts questions or concearns, A guy from the other forum suggested to flush with 6.5 ph water, but he also stated he was unfamilar with Coco grow, I have done quite abit of research and the range I have read was 5.5-6.5 but also read phosphate is locked out above 6.0, and 5.8 being ideal. Thanks in advance.

 

[MynameStitch]

You got a mixture of problems going, for one yes it is a phosphorus problem....... I see ,.,.some heat stress.........

Your phosphorus issue is not caused by a deficiency, but rather overfeeding your plants..... 10 ml per gallon is a lot of nutes for plants that size, how often are you giving them this dosage?

Stop using the superthrive too, that builds up very very quickly and I am sure that is a contributer to this problem.

 

[nuggiespl]

I will post some updated pictures in about an hour, these picture are from 11-1-08, Sorry about the extra pictues was unsure how to remove them, I kept clicking on the pictures and nothing happened. Thanks in advance

 

[MynameStitch]

Also forgot to say, I did not say anything else was wrong cause you already got that covered about the overwatering and such......sounds like you got everything under control and you know what to do

purple stems is not a 100% sign its a P problem, some strains have deep purple stems, but once they are purple they don't go back to normal it seems, when they do have a P issue.

Np about the double pics, just when you go to edit your post you can remove them from there.

 

[nuggiespl]

When I transplanted them I only gave them 1 ml per gallon and watered untill I got run off, which was 10-27, I didn't water untill 10-30-08, and again watered strictly water untill I got run off. I then spoke with my hydo guy, and said these plants are nute hawgs and to feed them 30 ml twice a day, of 10 ml per gallon and to feed for 2 days then water 1 day and repeat the process, so I have fed them 4 times since 10-31 So these pictures were before they were even getting fed. Thanks for speedy response, I feel like I'm going to pull my hair out.

 

[MynameStitch]

I then spoke with my hydo guy, and said these plants are nute hawgs and to feed them 30 ml twice a day,

I will direct you to my thread I made about hydroguys and fucking up peoples grows!
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=84393

Also please note the worst one in my signature line

by far you never ever listen to a hydroguy unless he is a cannabis grower himself!
No if's ands but's about it.

with coco you feed every 5 to 7 days.

 

[nuggiespl]

What about the proper Ph am I on the right track with 5.8, and also feed every 5-7 days how much would you rec, and water till run off? So should I wait 5-7 days to feed and just rotate water once and the feed so 10-14 days would include a feeding and a watering, THanks, I'm pretty sure he gets down though. Matter of fact almost positive, he is a wealth of knowledge and am grateful to have a shop close by with good peeps. I'm not one to just take what someone tells me and run with it, I like to find the facts and other point of views to make my own educated guess. Thanks

 

[wygram]

are you watering twice a day by hand?... 50% coco and that much perlite should allow you to water some everyday and not lose aeration... but sometimes it's recommenced to allow rooting plant in coco to dry a bit beyond optimum to allow roots to expand...

i can't agree with feeding every 5-7 days in coco... unless light warrior has nutes, but doesn't sound like it would... you're talking about biobizz bio grow right? i never fed above 1.5 tsps per gallon (6-7.5 ml) because my EC meter told me it was enough and never had N def... i would recommend you get a ppm/EC pen... the bio grow is really low in P though, about .1 right? you might have to mix in some bio bloom if that's what you're using... the biobizz line works excellent when you dial it in right, there are some thread in the coco room about people using it with positive experiences

 

[nuggiespl]

11-3 updated pics

11-3 updated pics

“are you watering twice a day by hand?...” Yes
“talking about biobizz bio grow right” Yes
“you might have to mix in some bio bloom if that's what you're using... the biobizz line works excellent when you dial it in right.” That’s exactly what I thought and put it in the post earlier I would think that would be the way to go anyways. As oppose to starting off with veg nutes, start with bloom nutes that would be high in phosphate and low in nit, to encourage tremendous root growth, whats below = what could be above. But am unsure if this what I should do. I wonder if the brown spots on the older leaves in some of the pictures were from a lack of nutrients and the plant was cannibalizing old growth for nutrients in new growth. Mainly cause if you read above I only gave 1ml per gallon of Bio grow nutrients from 10-27 until 10-30, and supposedly this strain is a nute hawg. My logic would tell me that wouldn’t be long enough for a plant to start that process, but I don’t jnow for sure the last time they were fed. Or was it a phosphate def, p def I think makes more sense though due to kinda stunted growth, and purple stems. Not sure what to do this is why I posted. I flushed all the plants in the actually pots and elected no to flush the one in grow bags, so that may be something to look at. This is my first ever attempt to grow so atleast they are still green and alive. I am posting all the info that has took place so experienced peeps can steer me right. I posted a lot of pictures. These are the most recent pics. Thanks in advance.

 

[MynameStitch]

Ya, those plants are burned from the high amount of food for one.....

Coco can hold in some nutes, why do you disagree with feeding 5 to 7 days wygram?

 

[wygram]

Coco can hold in some nutes, why do you disagree with feeding 5 to 7 days wygram?

i guess because of my ideology on how to use coco... from what i've learned here to me it's best suited as a near hydro medium... watering 2-3+ times a day with constant nutrients

also... i've used the biobizz line to grow plants in coco, watering more than once a day, without ill effects...

though i will agree that there is something funky going on with these plants... it might be over-feeding... i just don't think it's due to it being too frequent, probably too much

 

[nuggiespl]

Burnt

Burnt

I have come to the conclusion after just looking at them now that I'm over feeding and you guys input. 10 ml per gallon is to much at this stage. I might be able to get to that when they are twice that size but they are to young, the plants talked to me a few minutes ago. So now what to do? I will reduce the feeding down to 5ml per gallon. But I just flushed the ones in pots yesterday 11-2, Should I flush again or just start watering 5.8 water for the next few waterings, and should I go 5-7 days or twice a day 30 ml. would flushing twice in like 2 days be to much for them, please help. Although I haven't seen any burn on the new growth but i suspect is coming after just looking at them. I am tempted to go turn the co2 off so it will slow down them proccessing the nutes so fast. What are your thoughts. I'm also going to try and pick up a ec tester, or what ever it's called to determine the ppm I'm feeding them, what is the ideal ppm for the plants. I have read conflicting styles of watering in coco, some say water till runoff and let dry, although i know you don't want to let the coco dry out to much. And what do you think about the next feeding giving them the bio bloom to hopefully stimulate root growth. Sorry so many questions and my grammar is horrible have a Phd pot head degree. Please help. Thanks in advance.

 

[MynameStitch]

Wygram, a lot of times I have seen people who water like that get bad problems.... you should not have to water like that, if you do then something is defiantly wrong... your medium should not dry out like that.

Yes, you will have to flush her out really good, like 2x the amount of water per gallon size container.......

2 gallon pot 4 gallons of water to do a proper flush.

Yes, flushing twice in 2 days will be too much, they will show overwatering after the flush too, they will heal just give them time.

Right now with there size, I would not go over 6 ml per gallon of water 1 1/2 teaspoons per gallon of water.

You only want to water with run off when the plants have rooted most of the pot and has roots down deep enough to soak up all the water that goes to the bottom.

If you water in an area that does not have roots, the water will sit and keep the rest of the medium too wet.

 

[wygram]

in my experience using the coco medium like other soil-less media is not optimal, basically when you water frequently (when the plants are younger less) the roots begin to act as if they were in a hydro system... do people switch from nute to nute less reservoirs when doing hydro... the growth rate doing this is comparable to hydro, basically a new node fully-formed everyday...

but hey this worked for me... others may see problems, no argument that the scheme can't be fucked up... next cycle i'm going back to coco from organic soil (which grows damn fast anyway ) and will use coco specific nutes... the biobizz is a pain in the a when trying to maintain optimum pH...

 

[nuggiespl]

should I add 1/4 strength nutes 2 flush solution, or just ph water. If just water how soon to feed and should use bloom nutes instead of veg for roots

 

[MynameStitch]

no, do not add nutes when you flush, just use plain water not phed, after the flush you go back to your normal pH adjusting and feeding next time it needs watered... the next time you water, feed it, but don't use as much next time go with the dosage no more than 6ml.

If you got both use both, they need both nitrogen and phosphorus right now, but less P than N, but yours need P right now so I would first give it a shot of P next feeding.

Ahh I see wygram, I was very curious; because every coco grow I have helped with or seen grown watering like that always caused overwatering issues...... but again there is always that one grow or grower who can get away with stuff like that without ill effects

 

[nuggiespl]

It's ok that my tap water is high 8's low 9's

 

[MynameStitch]

I used the same tap water mine sometimes went to 9!

Check it again after 24 hours of sitting out, sometimes it will rise and sometimes it will drop depending on where you get your water from.....

You most defiantly have hard water.... but you shouldn't have any issues with cal magnesium

 

[nuggiespl]

Stitch

Stitch

Stitch, I just just got a tds, I checked my tap water and was 390, I checked my PH water 390, I added 3.0ml bio-grow, 2.5ml Bio bloom, and my ppm was 690, you think that would be fine, I guess you can double that is what they were getting. I actually elected not to flush and they look happier than ever, The last time they were fed was over 2 days ago. Thanks again, Of course they were flushed on sunday and then fed 15ml of, 10ml per gallon, shortly after. There was also 2 trays I never flushed and to be honest I really can't tell a diff. Doing exp to try and learn strain. They seem to be very forgiving thank to the ganja gods.

 

[MynameStitch]

Did you calibrate this pen before using it, damn dude that has a very HIGH tds.... do you have well water?

if you did calibrate correctly before using it, that water is not good to use, it's too hard....., but go ahead and give it to them...

Damaged growth will not recover on them, they will stay that way and end up turning necrotic.

If I were you I would get some different water to use..... hard water makes it difficult for plants to correctly absorb the nutes and with you growing in coco your pH needs to be in the range of 5.5 to 6.3......

So either you did not properly calibrate your meter or your pH test method needs to be fixed or flawed, because if your water was at the ppm you have given your pH will be very high and growing in soiless mixture water pH counts towards the final value....

Hard water has a high pH value too. Which meter did you get?